Is WALTER slowing themers down?

[ngarjuna]

I'm another one who isn't a themer per se but used to regularly customize themes to my liking; I've found that's not entirely possible without some WALTERing skills (that I lack currently). A good example: I love everything about Imperial except the way the TCP deals with folders. In REAPER 3, I would have taken a different TCP theme and simply made it as close to the current Imperial as possible but with some kind of indentation or a more obvious (to me) folder identifier. As it is, I tried exactly such a task; I even tried just using the Default TCP (to merge it into a version of Imperial for everything else); never was successful. That's not a huge concern to me but occasionally I do pine for the 'good ole days' when I could actually customize themes to my liking; while such a thing is obviously still possible, it's less and less plausible for me (as I have less time than ever before to devote to tasks that don't involve client work; good problem to have, though!).

ETA: Incidentally, I don't dislike WALTER or wish it away. Despite the impact on my own customizations I do feel that the overall level of potential thematic customization and innovation is much higher than it was before. I see that potential as worthwhile.

[albertxxxx]

I learned playing with the default theme and gimp ..... later with the rtconfig .... little by little I learned a trick that another and above all experience .....
I'm not a graphic designer ... and learned a lot ... everything is put ......sorry for my english

[mikeroephonics]

I don't theme a whole lot. The only theming I've done is editing/creating some .png files in Gimp.

I am by no means a coder, and I find it very difficult to look at it. It's too abstract for me (even the simple code), so I don't bother using WALTER when I make/edit themes.

I don't know how many others are in the "I don't code at all" camp, but I suspect it's over 5% (just a raw guess.)

I think you might see more WALTER themes if there were some sort of WALTER GUI thing for theme creation. Kind of like a "what you see is what you get" webpage application where you don't need to know code to make the site. You just adjust pictures & text in the GUI.

But that would probably take a long time to make & would slow down development of REAPER.

[daexpert]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

...I think you might see more WALTER themes if there were some sort of WALTER GUI thing for theme creation. Kind of like a "what you see is what you get" webpage application where you don't need to know code to make the site. You just adjust pictures & text in the GUI...

That would be extremely useful.

[heda]

I was thinking again about this topic....
and maybe Walter is slowing themers down AND also slowing Cockos ... because it is now more difficult to make changes to the program without breaking all themes... For example.. Let's add a cool feature which would change a bit the TCP layout. But this can't be done because it would break compatibility with all current themes so it has to wait until Reaper 5.. and so on.

I think if Cockos would have total control of the UI it could easily add more features without worrying about themes... But it is too late for thinking about it, and it is cool to customize Reaper

so yes it may be slowing everyone down.. but we have the coolest app

[run, megalodon]

I dunno, some might say my view is skewed because I'm one of the "assholes," but I actually have a hard time believing that its the community driving people away. Anybody who posts a moderately cool theme will enjoy at least a few people seeming pumped about it, and great themers will enjoy much more than that and even offers to pay them. And if someone dares to say it's crap, that person will usually be attacked by the community so I can't really see people feeling that beat down by it.

I would imagine that walter has something to do with it, maybe a lot, maybe a little. Now that walter exists, its kind of like you can't make a serious theme unless you use it; if you don't, you are doing it the cheesy, outdated way basically. And it is pretty hard to deal with for non-programmers. There are lots of comments from themers about waltering skills not being so great, and even some themes that use other theme's walter to avoid creating their own. Vstyler for example, a professional graphics designer, built his theme on top of rado.

I've always thought there should be a walter application, though I can't say im sure it would help the state of things so much, and cockos always has other stuff to work on. And I doubt we'll see one that really works well if cockos doesn't make it.

Originally Posted by medicine tactic

Curious post, but you sound like you might actually deliver

Best of luck, and we'll look forward to it.

So did the other two guys. It's a big commitment.

[run, megalodon]

Actually, another thing, now that I think about it, could be that Reaper's theming capabilities are not complete. For example, you don't have much control over the edges of the tcp, or really and transitions between windows. Then theres all the window stuff that you can't theme so you are always going to have stuff that doesn't go with your theme. Then there are things that are sort of half there and have to be jimmy rigged a bit, for example the info boxes in the transport. So maybe it's the fact that there is so much work involved with a walter theme, but you are still always going to come up short. I made a thread about a bit of this, check out the last picture and see how much nicer it looks: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=115725

OR maybe, it's that when you have people like white tie and albertxxx and nick m creating stuff that looks completely pro calibur with walter now, the little guys feel like it's not worth trying? Actually I'll bet that's a big part.

[dr_After]

In my opinion WALTER is slowing themers down. Or rather not Walter itself but lack of any visual editor that would help to position and test theme's elements without messing with the rtconfig.

[Coachz]

If anyone makes a video on how to walter I will watch it.

[Some Guy]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

So maybe it's the fact that there is so much work involved with a walter theme, but you are still always going to come up short.

this is absolutely true for me. Whatever you do, REAPER will look/feel bad. Considering the amount of work involved, it's hard to think of a less rewarding scenario for a designer.

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by Some Guy

this is absolutely true for me. Whatever you do, REAPER will look/feel bad. Considering the amount of work involved, it's hard to think of a less rewarding scenario for a designer.

For a great example everybody can check out Rado V4 by Nick Moritz and compare it to the Synpase Orion 8.5 theme that Nick also designed (click the pics to enlarge). HUGE difference in cohesiveness.

[Tomm]

IMO, for what it does, WALTER is amazingly simple and fast to work with, but there's not much point making a new theme when there are many workable ones out there already.

If you are new to UI design/implementation and need help with coordinates, you could try using a CSS visual editor and then copy/paste. CSS and WALTER are pretty similar actually, and most web designers shouldn't have any problem with it (unless they do all their work in dreamweaver or somethin, lol)

as for other bits defined in walter, the reference manual should clear up any confusion. if not, simply ask for help. Conditional statements can be broken down into several lines, and more cryptic elements can be turned into human-readable variable names, like edge attachments for example.

[White Tie]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

I actually have a hard time believing that its the community driving people away.

Of course, why would you take my word for it? Instead you can engage in totally uninformed conjecture and then believe it to be accurate. Would that, by any chance, be because thinking that way allows you to take no responsibility for your actions and feel no need to modify your behaviour? How about if the very thing I'm referring to were happening on another thread, here in this very forum, this very day?

Read my post again ...I suggested the reasons behind the OP's observation are blah, blah, blah and rude buggers. The only part anyone seems to have a problem with is the last part. Which rather makes my point for me, I think.

[witti]

I learned the basics of Walter in a couple of weeks. It was learning by doing.
I still learn something new everytime i try to solve a specific problem.

My biggest problem is doing the graphics and choosing the right colors.
THAT really slows me down !

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by bradleyfilms

White Tie's latter point is what puts me off sharing my work.

yeah, that's too bad. why do you feel that way though? are you not confident in your work and need validation from every single person to feel it's a success? if so, why is that? I believe if you keep asking yourself these kinds of questions you'll come to the realization that it's in your power to change the way you perceive the outside world, and if you act with truly unconditional love, for yourself and others, then you will not have a problem sharing your work. easier said then done, of course, but it may be a worthy exercise. not just for theming, but all aspects of life too.

anyways, just my 2 cents. good luck and take care...

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by White Tie

Of course, why would you take my word for it? Instead you can engage in totally uninformed conjecture and then believe it to be accurate.

Why should I take your word for it? Do you speak for all themers? No, you're doing nothing but conjecturing as well. I've tried my hand at theming. And I don't mean to toot my horn but I would have finished a few decent themes if it weren't for the gaps in the theming, not the community. Anybody who's been around here for a while can form an opinion here. And my behavior doesn't need modifying.

Originally Posted by White Tie

How about if the very thing I'm referring to were happening on another thread, here in this very forum, this very day?

I did see the ruckus in the ProTools thread. And it does lend some some credence to the theory, especially with alberts response. Then again it is playing about as I've said.

People, LET THE MAN WORK, dammit. I'd hate to see him quit out of frustration cuz you IDIOTS don't know how to wait and just keep harassing.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But it's really surprising to me that somebody would get so much praise and then throw in the towel because if the few random assholes that you will run into anywhere on the internet. And Albert is just one guy. In fact, I was working on the same thing as that thread, a PT 10 copy that would have been pixel for pixel, but dropped it because of theming gaps, not because I was afraid of what some jackass might say.

Originally Posted by White Tie

Read my post again ...I suggested the reasons behind the OP's observation are blah, blah, blah and rude buggers. The only part anyone seems to have a problem with is the last part. Which rather makes my point for me, I think.

How? I thought that was the only one worth debating, what's wrong with that? Especially because it was mentioned by others. It was also your conclusion, your longer paragraph, and the same bell you ring whenever you get a chance so don't act like you just mentioned it in passing.

But I know that this isn't going to convince you. You have your idea of how things should be, and where exactly the line is for everyone, anybody who doesn't put up a fuss is just part of the problem I guess. You're a stuck up dude, WT. I wouldn't mind if you left. Is that enough to make you leave? Now lets have a few paragraphs of you repeating yourself.

[Unox]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

...You're a stuck up dude, WT. I wouldn't mind if you left. Is that enough to make you leave? Now lets have a few paragraphs of you repeating yourself.

a Forum with a PW, just for themers.

[bluzkat]

Well Janne says he's leaving also (and that's really sad ). There have been others also.

And its not just themers, several long-time regulars have also drifted off. Look around.

This forum is a shadow of its former self. That's really a shame as the forum was one of Reaper's greatest assets.

[hwhalen]

The Good

Reaper has a low price point, a very good product(IMO) and an open line of communication to developers and themers.

The Bad

Throwing stones at developers, themers and other members on the forum.

The Ugly

Some of the bugs/limitations of the product, and in the eye of the beholder, some of the themes, be they mockups or not.

Lets get Religulous,

Let he who has not developed code,
Let he who has not released a theme,
Let he who is without fault...Leave

WTF make music! do sound! have fun!

[ngarjuna]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

But I know that this isn't going to convince you. You have your idea of how things should be, and where exactly the line is for everyone, anybody who doesn't put up a fuss is just part of the problem I guess. You're a stuck up dude, WT. I wouldn't mind if you left. Is that enough to make you leave? Now lets have a few paragraphs of you repeating yourself.

Please name one thing you've done to benefit the user experience of thousands of people in REAPER.

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by ngarjuna

Please name one thing you've done to benefit the user experience of thousands of people in REAPER.

What's your point? The question we are talking about here is whether themers are leaving because of the forum climate. I don't have to make a theme that people wet their pants over to have an idea whether that's true or not. I simply gave my opinion and it seems to me that WT attacked me for no reason, saying I was just conjecturing which as I said was true of him, and that I had selfish motivations. And if you didn't get it, I'm not actually trying to drive off WT right there, I'm pointing out that he is not going to leave just because one dude he doesn't like said something to him, which falls in line with my point.

I have done a bit to help where I can though. I bug test and comment on features I have an interest in, and respond to noob questions when I know the answer. What do you do? Not that I care, using the place purely for social interaction is fine by me.

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by bluzkat

Well Janne says he's leaving also (and that's really sad ). There have been others also.

And its not just themers, several long-time regulars have also drifted off. Look around.

This forum is a shadow of its former self. That's really a shame as the forum was one of Reaper's greatest assets.

I dunno, I've been around since about 2.5 and I don't really see things that way. People have left, but we've gained people too, for example albertxxx. I think maybe part of it is that people just have their fill and move onto other stuff they are interested in. I mean for everybody to stick around and put effort into a new theme every year or so forever would be a lot of dedication.

[Klemperer]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

That's sad

... right now this forum isn't even a shadow of what it used to be a few years ago... sad).

That is indeed true. But might be subject to change. I used a many of the always superb themes since Reaper 1 to somehow mix them together, add something like snow-buttons from a nice chap that had posted here too. Coming back after some months without time for music I really could read something had changed, even in the Reaper-forums. Well, just to add it, a few people might, like WT already explained so well, hold themes back out of other reasons. And we already have so many beautiful themes - theme-makers, always listen to the invisible choir of 90% who use Reaper but do not post here - "hey, this one is gentle to my eyes" "now that dark theme is just what I need for this rrrrrrroaring song".... I use to read a lot in political forums just because I'm interested what people think. It has to be said, the majority is not that much different than people you actually meet... curses and bashings are just a tad easier to be sent away if you are alone in a room, and not shouting in the face of this huge woman/man that could, maybe, show you her fists if you're too dumb&hateful...