Old 10-13-2021, 12:53 PM   #1
Raaphorst
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Default New Render normalisation LUFS + Brickwall seems weird

When I set Normalize to: LUFS-I -6 dB (should be dbFS!)
And Brickwall limit to: True peak 1 dB (should be dbFS!)
I am getting a file which is -9.7 dB integrated with a peak at -0.9 dBFS. Not good.

Is this a bug or am I missing something?
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Old 10-13-2021, 01:25 PM   #2
schwa
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As the note in the normalize/limit dialog says: limiting is applied after normalizing, and may decrease the final loudness.

btw I assume you mean you are limiting to -1 (not +1) ?

In your example, the file is first normalized to -6 LU. If limiting to -1 dB then results in -9.7 LU, that means there is a lot of post-normalized material above -1 dB. In other words, the project needs a lot of compression to achieve both your loudness and peak targets, which is better to apply before rendering, so you can hear what's going on.

Last edited by schwa; 10-13-2021 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:38 AM   #3
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Yes, I am using a Limiter (Loudmax) when editing.

And yes -1 dBFS as True Peak.

I guess this feature does not make much sense to me. Applying peak limiting after you set average loudness level is like wild guessing.

Must say, bit off topic, will try out the new ReaLimit. And thanks for your answer!
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:33 AM   #4
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If the user chooses either normalizing or limiting, the results are predictable. We considered disabling one option if the other is enabled, but it seemed useful to offer the ability to catch minor overs after normalization.

It would be technically possible to have the normalization plus limiting case iterate until both targets are reached, but we thought it was potentially dangerous to do so, especially in the case like the one you are describing. Applying that much compression after normalizing could result in output that sounds very different from the project playback, so it didn't seem like something that should be done during the render process.
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Old 10-14-2021, 05:19 AM   #5
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Sure, when using a Limiter in the project on the master, it might be better since you can hear the results straight away. But in many situations running the file though something like https://auphonic.com is very convenient. In my opinion this should be the way to do it when rendering. Target loudness and peak level should be 100% correct.

You might also check Loudmax (https://loudmax.blogspot.com/), a free Limiter which is great. When I render a project with it which is like -17 LUFS integrated I can then set the threshold 1 dbfs lower and it will be -16. It is dead on perfect. The new ReaLimit, although sounding nice, is not exact (maybe a bug). Is this plugin also used for the new render options? Threshold seems to be problematic.

But in general the sound on render might be different compared to the "live" version. I noticed to switch on 2nd Pass or else the rendered version is not sounding ok.
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Old 10-14-2021, 05:20 AM   #6
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The combination of LUFS-I normalization and true peak limiting is very useful in the world of movie post production where requested loudness values are low enough to allow very dynamic material. However sometimes in movies where you have both quiet leaf rustling and huge explosions, some peaks of the explosions might slightly clip, which us why limiting to a safe true peak value is needed. This sort of safety limiting barely influences the sound and the LUFS value so that the target range usually is still easily met and it is great that Reaper can do this automatically on rendering.

You are talking about a LUFS-I value of -6 which is very high, even for music. This can’t be reached without aggressive limiting and thus for such tasks usually you should limit in your project, adjust your sound based on the limiter and try to measure and reach your LUFS level by increasing the limiter input.

Reaper can still help you reach an exact target on render more easily rather than you having to listen through the whole production looking at a meter, but it should not have to do a lot on its own. Otherwise you’d be looking at an automatic mastsering service like LANDR and similar..
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Old 10-14-2021, 05:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raaphorst View Post
=The new ReaLimit, although sounding nice, is not exact (maybe a bug).
What do you mean by "not exact"?
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Old 10-14-2021, 07:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
What do you mean by "not exact"?
Sorry, I made a mistake while testing it. Was too quick with my judgment. Will take some more time to explore the Realimit which does sound great!
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Old 10-14-2021, 07:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
The combination of LUFS-I normalization and true peak limiting is very useful in the world of movie post production where requested loudness values are low enough to allow very dynamic material. However sometimes in movies where you have both quiet leaf rustling and huge explosions, some peaks of the explosions might slightly clip, which us why limiting to a safe true peak value is needed. This sort of safety limiting barely influences the sound and the LUFS value so that the target range usually is still easily met and it is great that Reaper can do this automatically on rendering.

You are talking about a LUFS-I value of -6 which is very high, even for music. This can’t be reached without aggressive limiting and thus for such tasks usually you should limit in your project, adjust your sound based on the limiter and try to measure and reach your LUFS level by increasing the limiter input.

Reaper can still help you reach an exact target on render more easily rather than you having to listen through the whole production looking at a meter, but it should not have to do a lot on its own. Otherwise you’d be looking at an automatic mastsering service like LANDR and similar..
Yes I agree that -6 LUFS integrated is way too loud. Also as a test example. However I am not reaching the values I am aiming for. I want for example a file which is -16 LUFS I and -1 dbFS peak. I am not able to render this.
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Old 10-14-2021, 08:08 AM   #10
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edit:
Maybe I misunderstood.

Last edited by nofish; 10-14-2021 at 08:27 AM.
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