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Old 01-15-2023, 11:09 AM   #1
snafu
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Default Envelope segments move differently than expected

HI,

I have a question about envelope segments:
now I set up my mouse modifiers the following way:
- double click -> insert envelope point
- left drag (default action) -> move envelope segment
- ctrl + left drag -> move envelope segment preserving edge points
- alt + left drag --> edit envelope segment curvature


Since I'm new to Reaper I was referring to the magnificient Kenny Gioia video on YouTube about envelope segments.



Now, I have a track where insert four (!) points. But when I raise the segment in the middle something strange happens: it will raise the whole envelope, not only the segment between the four points.
On all other tracks, thats not an issue at all - everything works as expected, it's just that one track, where I may have accidentally hit a keyboard key or something like that. Even clearling the envelope and starting fresh all over doesn't help? Any ideas?
Is there a way I could have locked something?












Thank you very much,
best regards


snafu
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Old 01-15-2023, 11:11 AM   #2
snafu
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...for some reason it won't accept my image links.
Well OK, here we go with attachement.
Attached Images
File Type: png SettingUp.png (5.3 KB, 52 views)
File Type: png Expected.png (6.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: png Actually.png (6.2 KB, 50 views)
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Old 01-17-2023, 09:55 AM   #3
nait
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You need to be sure you're only selecting the points you want to raise. Your screenshot indicates that you have all 4 selected. Just select the middle two (deselect the outer two), then raise them. I believe by default ctrl-shift-left click on enevelope point toggles between selected and unselected (side rant: I find the mouse modifiers for envelope points confusing, but they can be changed).

It can be a bit of a struggle to work with envelopes in Reaper, but eventually it makes sense. Haha But really, there's no way Reaper can guess what you want to happen if you have all 4 selected, right?

I guess I should clarify one more thing... if you look in your pictures, the envelope points are solid green dots. That indicates they are selected. Unselected, they'll be green circles (i.e. the middle is open). I feel I'm explaining that poor, but I hope you get what I mean. lol

Edit: sorry, I was not at my Reaper PC at the moment of writing this, and there are some incorrect statements in here which I fix in post #5. I'm terribly sorry for the misinformation in spite of it actually helping you manage to do what you were trying to do.
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Last edited by nait; 01-20-2023 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 01-20-2023, 03:52 AM   #4
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Hey nait,


thanks for chiming in

First of all: your infos about envelope points eventually led to the solution. So thank you very much for that!


Second: actually these are no Reaper screenshots - it's me rebuilding the whole story in PowerPoint :-D But anyway, your predictions met the conditions that led to the behavior I was experiencing.


May I double the strange envelopepoint mouse modifiers here? In my (short term) experience you should avoid having resembling modifiers for two tasks closely related (e. g. envelope segment manipulation and envelope point manipulation). So, for example, it does not work as expected if I chose ALT + mouse drag for segment manipulation AND ALT + mouse drag for env.point manipulation. There seems to be some preferation of one over the other, so the outcome might not be as expected.


Anyway: Thank you very much!
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Old 01-20-2023, 09:20 AM   #5
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Hey Snafu!

Wow, I'm sorry, I actually should have read more of post 1. I quickly jumped to the images in post 2 and made some incorrect assumptions on what you were doing and missed the modifier stuff. I also was not at Reaper at that time, and made one other assumption.. so I apologize, but, I have a correction to make.

Anyways, just to backtrack a bit, I did now notice that you can select those 4 points in your pic and move a single segment at a time if your default behavior is "Move envelope segment ignoring time selection" (this is what it is set to in factory default). You would just put your mouse cursor between points (i.e., a segment) and drag. If you omit "ignoring time selection" in that default behavior and attempt this, then you might get the behavior you described earlier, depending on where your selection is. You don't actually have to unselect points.. that was a false assumption on my part due to bad memory and lack of Reaper in front of me Reaper should know you just want to move that middle segment because that's what you're dragging on... and if your left drag behavior is to move a segment, ignoring the time selection. Apologies for the misinformation before, even if it did somehow lead you to being able to do what you wanted.

Was there a particular reason you have just "Move envelope segment" instead of the one ignoring time selection?


As far as preferring of segment vs. point, I'm not really sure there is such a preference of one over the other. In my head, if you left drag your mouse on top of a point, you're using point manipulation and if you drag somewhere outside of a point, you're using segment manipulation. You're never doing both at once.. you're either doing point manipulation or you're doing segment manipulation, and that is determined by where your mouse is (on a point or on a line/curve/segment). I could be wrong here though, and maybe I misunderstand your meaning here.
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Last edited by nait; 01-20-2023 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 01-22-2023, 02:47 AM   #6
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:-D I love it, when each talks about his own, but the result is pure awesomeness.


Thanks for the added info! This helps a lot:


Quote:
Originally Posted by nait View Post
Was there a particular reason you have just "Move envelope segment" instead of the one ignoring time selection?

Actually none other than: I didn't know better ;-) Having not to deselect points is a real ease!


As for the other part: I would have to check again, to see what exactly I was doing, but it goes something like this:
I noticed that while having ALT + left drag having enabled for segment and point action, led to only fireing the segment action. That just led to the assumption there might be a part in the code of Reaper that gives one action priority over the other. I'll definitively go back to this; by trying yesterday I could reproduce this behavior, but I know it was there. It might be just a certain condition, depending on what you chose for segment / point. I'm sure I'll figure it out ;-)


Thanks for your help!
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Old 01-22-2023, 03:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snafu View Post
I noticed that while having ALT + left drag having enabled for segment and point action, led to only fireing the segment action. That just led to the assumption there might be a part in the code of Reaper that gives one action priority over the other. I'll definitively go back to this; by trying yesterday I could reproduce this behavior, but I know it was there. It might be just a certain condition, depending on what you chose for segment / point. I'm sure I'll figure it out ;-)
Remember that when you are moving a point, cursor is four-arrowed. And when you are moving a segment, you'll see double-arrowed cursor. Does it make sense? Maybe this video will make it clearer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsuYl5JcPkE
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