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09-05-2010, 10:04 AM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Those of you with a foot in both camps like me will hopefully have been following the sonar CPU load problems thread on the Cake Sonar forum.
Just so the rest of you know what I and several others appear to be experiencing, it boils down to something odd happening between Sonar 8.5.3, & Win7 either 32 or 64 bit and in my and a couple of other cases, six core processors.
I had a good workable system under Win XP 64 running Sonar 6 Producer.
It gave me a comfortable latency with the buffer set at 128 with no problems even when running a LOT of VSTi and other plugs.
So I built a 6 core machine, upgraded to Win7 64 bit and installed Sonar 8.5.3.
Initially I was apparently only using one core of the cpu under Sonar, even though Reaper had happily found all 6 without any interference from me.
Once I had figured out turning core parking off, I started doing some light recording and ran into mjor problems with dropout, etc. So much so that I am forced to run at a 512 buffer and even then can only do a limited amount of stuff with plugins.
Under Reaper I am running with a buffer of 32.
Absolutely no problems at all.
I hate the thought of walking away from all the learning I have done with Sonar & all the money I have spent since versiop 3, but frankly I have pretty much had it.
So any of you still sitting on the fence, get ready to switch as and when you get a system with more than 2 cores and try to run Sonar 8.5
maybe they will sort it out for Sonar 9 but right now I dont feel like I will be around to see it.
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09-05-2010, 06:25 PM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
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Thanks for the info on printing key combos. Really nice.
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09-05-2010, 06:41 PM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 1,481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian
Check Help -> HTML Lists or simply press SHIFT + F1; instant list of all current keyboard shortcuts.
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Wow - that's amazing! I've been using Reaper in earnest for less than a month and am encouraged by all the cool little nooks and crannies that i come across. Thanks for sharing.
__________________
We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.
--Charles Kingsley... or maybe Albert Einstein... definitely somebody wiser than myself--
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09-05-2010, 07:03 PM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian
Check Help -> HTML Lists or simply press SHIFT + F1; instant list of all current keyboard shortcuts.
One of those little things that make you love REAPER's way
- Mario
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Thanks, I've been using Reaper for a while and didn't know that.
__________________
Mac 10.14.6, Windows 10 pro, Reaper 5, Akai Advance keyboard, MPC X, Maschine 2, Arturia V Collection, Komplete 12 Ultimate, Omnisphere 2.6, KeyScape, Trilian, Akai VIP, Albino, Minimonsta, Moog Modular vsti, Apollo interface, Korg M1 vsti, Reason.
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09-18-2010, 01:23 AM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas
- Better automation, including Parameter Modulation.
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Oh god is that ever true.
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09-18-2010, 02:19 AM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonespnice
I agree and as a matter of fact I stated the same thing in the Sonar forum shortly after Roland took over. I mean Roland does a good job making new innovative products but they do a terrible job developing them (ie. Variphrase, varios, ds-90 digital monitors, ect), if it doesn't make money quick they just drop them. I remember I beta tested project 5 version 2.5, which was great, and after it was finally released the development team stated that they had big plans for version 3 but then Roland took over more control and Project5 was suddenly discontinued, that was the beginning of my mistrust. Also around the same time cakewalk was supposedly creating this new "amazing" instrument that was going to be included with Sonar but that was dropped also and what we actually got was beatscape which ( as far as its capabilities/technology) was about 5 years behind in time. I think Sonar would be a better product if Roland's influence on development was totally removed.
Just my 2 cents.
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This may be true, but to be honest I've found them to be a wonderful company to deal with when something goes wrong.
They've gone above and beyond to sort me out with a problem I had with my piano (which is now for sale btw heh) and they could have just left me high and dry.
It's just a shame I seem to destroy their keyboards for a passtime :/
Kind regards
Dave Rich
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09-18-2010, 03:02 AM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
in the latest pre we can now right click the fx button and open fx gui's from there.
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And what was then only in the pre version, is now in the current version (I just discovered, thanks!) How useful. And isn't it nice to not have to wait till the next yearly upgrade to get it.
<< Next hopeful stop.. fx "blocks" in the track view! >>
Especially if the block was show/hide per-track. I picture it looking kinda Sonarish (I've gotten used to Reaper's spartan TCP) but prettier and more modern and refined. And implemented like a designed feature, rather than a proof of concept. (Sonar rarely gives per-track access to that kind of thing. In Sonar, so many functions are either too local, or too global. It drove me crazy.)
But even now, in Reaper, just hovering over the fx button in TCP will show you the content of the "bin." So the fx block is already there, visually, at least on a popup basis. Which is sometimes all you need. Reaper is like that throughout, with a good use of status captions (though there's always room for improvement cough cough.) That's the kind of UI detail that you'll go deaf before you see in Sonar.
Reaper is just a smarter and more progressive software, and that makes it a nicer environment for this kind of work. I think.
Reaper's customability is so deep and wide -- any command, anywhere -- that it's more like an audio operating system than a digital audio workstation "DAW" is SO pre-Reaper.
Sonar is to Reaper what late-20th century AOL was to the WWW.
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09-18-2010, 03:51 AM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marah Mag
-- any command, anywhere --
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actually it's probably more accurate to say almost any command, almost anywhere. But it's the thought that counts.
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09-18-2010, 04:52 AM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdog
I sound like a Sonar hater and I'm not.
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I know exactly how that feels (crappy.) But that's what it sounds like when tough love runs out of hope.
I'm getting back to more in-depth Reaper usage after a time away, and I've been looking forward to it. When I'd similarly get back to Sonar, it was (as it almost always IS) just before or just after "the best Sonar upgrade ever" and I'd think, oh maybe THIS time. That happened more than a couple of times. Then I discovered there were lots of other things I could do w nearly $200 a year and that switching was not difficult, and that the learning curve was both fun and productive. (I'm still a relative Reaper newb, I should add, and rusty atm... but yeah. )
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09-18-2010, 11:06 PM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas
Better automation, including Parameter Modulation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marah Mag
Oh god is that ever true.
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6 odd years of ongoing automation issues unaddressed (or addressed in unsuccessful ways) and you still can't key bind a clip envelop that's buried 3 layers into a menu dialog.
About a year ago when they closed down a thread in a rather heavy handed manner where people were expressing a great deal of dissatisfaction about clip automation and asking why after 5 years it had not be fixed...did it for me. Too much negativity obviously is not good for brand marketing. Easier to shut people up than it is to find a way to fix a fundamental problem. The reaction to that thread told me a lot about that company.
And then comes Reaper. ALT+V and I have a take envelope. None of the buggy nonsense of Sonar. Talk about night and day. Someone around here actually listens to users.
Regards,
DB
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09-19-2010, 12:47 AM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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And not just a take envelope, but a take env with way way WAY more function and power than Sonar's. In fact, a take envelope that just MIGHT even be worth crawling through 3 levels of right-click submenus for -- if you had too. hee hee
<< ...and you still can't key bind a clip envelop that's buried 3 layers into a menu dialog. >>
Well now you are singing my song!
Cakewalk's apparent satisfaction with their design and usability processes, and their customers' obvious acceptance of the resulting product over countless upgrade cycles, told me that I was not the projected Sonar user. Sonar's Infamous Unbindable Clip Envelope was the ultimate symbol of that. (Unbindable clip envelopes! Imagine! Reaper has that, plus a built-in volume handle on every clip. By default. Where do I sign up?)
I don't recall Cakewalk ever formally closing down a thread. But they wouldn't really have to, as critical threads were effectively diverted and derailed by Sonar evangelists (which can lead to at least the perception of a counter-evangelism on the part of a heretic about to jump ship as soon as she overcomes her dread of a brain-remapping learning curve... I admit....)
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09-19-2010, 02:16 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBMusic
6 odd years of ongoing automation issues unaddressed (or addressed in unsuccessful ways) and you still can't key bind a clip envelop that's buried 3 layers into a menu dialog.
About a year ago when they closed down a thread in a rather heavy handed manner where people were expressing a great deal of dissatisfaction about clip automation and asking why after 5 years it had not be fixed...did it for me. Too much negativity obviously is not good for brand marketing. Easier to shut people up than it is to find a way to fix a fundamental problem. The reaction to that thread told me a lot about that company.
And then comes Reaper. ALT+V and I have a take envelope. None of the buggy nonsense of Sonar. Talk about night and day. Someone around here actually listens to users.
Regards,
DB
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I got the feeling that Ron was the last guy who actually might've had a clue about how their audio engine worked anyway
He left to work on an MMORG apparently.
Kind Regards
Dave Rich
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09-19-2010, 07:21 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBMusic
6 odd years of ongoing automation issues unaddressed (or addressed in unsuccessful ways) and you still can't key bind a clip envelop that's buried 3 layers into a menu dialog. About a year ago when they closed down a thread in a rather heavy handed manner where people were expressing a great deal of dissatisfaction about clip automation and asking why after 5 years it had not be fixed...did it for me. Too much negativity obviously is not good for brand marketing. Easier to shut people up than it is to find a way to fix a fundamental problem. The reaction to that thread told me a lot about that company.
And then comes Reaper. ALT+V and I have a take envelope. None of the buggy nonsense of Sonar. Talk about night and day. Someone around here actually listens to users.
Regards,
DB
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What do you mean, take envelope? Can you help me understand what you mean, by key binding an envelope (in SONAR vs. Reaper).....it sounds like something I'd want to use, but I don't understand fully what you mean exactly...
Can you give an example of how you'd use this feature?
I'm big on automation....so, I'm excited to learn this
Thanks!
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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09-19-2010, 10:21 PM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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Hi lowellben.
Key binding an envelope is simply assigning a shortcut key that will create the envelope. Both Sonar and Reaper let you create envelopes at the (respectively) 'Clip' or 'Item' level, but only Reaper lets you assign that command to a shortcut. (The reason for this has never been explained, but IMV can only be accounted for by an implementation oversight that CW has allowed to go uncorrected for what at this point must be close to a decade.) But the real difference between Sonar's clips and Reaper's items goes way beyond that.
As you know, 'clip' in Sonar-speak = 'item' in Reaper-speak, and as terms, they're interchangeable. In Sonar a clip exposes a portion of a single wave file or MIDI sequence, and that's it. An item in Reaper can also be similarly limited.
But in Reaper, an Item can function as a container for multiple independent 'Takes'. In this case, the parallel takes are time-locked within the edges of the item. By default, only one take can be heard at a time, but you can switch between takes simply by clicking on it inside the item.
Each Reaper item has only one Mute button, which applies to all takes within the item (as does the volume handle and some other params.) However, each take within a single item can have its own independent envelope for vol, pan, and mute, and can also be independently processed in other ways. (These envs can be created/deleted/etc using a shortcut key, but that's almost beside the point... the ability to create command shortcuts in Reaper is simply a given.)
One advantage of Reaper's multi-take items, to which nothing in Sonar really corresponds, can be seen when comping.
In Reaper, you can change the 'active take' simply by single-clicking on it during playback. Because takes are physically time-locked within the item, they will remain in sync with each other and also with the project's timeline and song structure. Also, no matter which take is active, splitting the *item* will split all takes at the same location, producing another multi-take item. Also, slip-editing, stretching, and other item-level manipulations will apply to all takes within the item. All of this gives you more flexibility and ease when comping.
In Sonar, clips are always single takes -- there really aren't 'takes' per se (as distinct objects) in Sonar. While Sonar has a system of lanes within tracks, and individual clips can be moved between and within lanes, the clips themselves remain independent in time and have no mutual functions.
In Sonar, if you have two different clips, in the same time range, each with a different take (that is, a different recorded pass), in order to switch from one to the other, at minimum you need to mute one and unmute the other. The easiest way to do this in Sonar is to have both items selected, one muted and one not, and then use a single mute-toggle command to flip their states. This works (and also works the same in Reaper), but as soon as you have more than two "lanes" of clips, you run into the mute-select-unmute-unselect-make-sure-you-don't-accidentally-move-the-clip-and-do-all-this-accurately routine that makes comping in Sonar such a time consuming creativity killer. (This is usually where someone steps in and says, if you have to comp, then you should just re-record... which I can appreciate in theory (esp when using Sonar! ha ha) but there are things you can do with comping that you'll just never get in a live pass. )
Two other cool things about Reaper's multi-take items. You can 'explode' the takes within a single item into fully independent *items* with all the functionality of items. Even cooler in some ways, you can 'implode' or aggregate independent items (each with multiple takes, I think) into a new single item.
A lot of the complexity in switching to Reaper, and within Reaper itself, is the terminology (this is true of all like-category apps of course.) It's easy and convenient to think or talk about Takes as Items, and Items as Takes, and much of the time they represent the same thing. But when they DON'T, and you're trying to communicate to someone operating in a different context, it's easy to get confused. As I now thoroughly am! But I hope this made some sense.
Last edited by Marah Mag; 09-19-2010 at 10:46 PM.
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09-19-2010, 11:09 PM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
What do you mean, take envelope? Can you help me understand what you mean, by key binding an envelope (in SONAR vs. Reaper).....it sounds like something I'd want to use, but I don't understand fully what you mean exactly...
Can you give an example of how you'd use this feature?
I'm big on automation....so, I'm excited to learn this
Thanks!
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Sorry if I was unclear. For me it was just assigning ALT+V to 'Take: Toggle take volume envelope' in the action list. I've also assigned ALT+P to 'Take: Toggle take pan envelope'.
Not a big deal...unless of course you're coming from Sonar where every time you want to assign an envelope to a clip you have to right-click and burrow 3 layers into a dialog menu.
Regards,
DB
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12-28-2010, 12:46 PM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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this community absolutely rocks. thank you SO MUCH for your help, and answers. I love Reaper!
Ben
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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12-28-2010, 01:18 PM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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Matrix View, and boy is that a biggy!
Non-linear composition (session/matrix view) is paradigm-shifting and the logical extension of random access recording technology.
I'll be crying tears of joy the day Cockos implements this:
(the coolest stuff is the 'beat juggling' starting ~2:35)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzuQW5abPGQ
Quote:
SONAR 8.5's Matrix View lets you experience a whole new approach to creating music in any genre. This non-linear composition tool allows you to load audio or MIDI tracks, loops, and one-shots to improvise compositions on the fly. Instantly create remixes, sketch out different arrangements for any song, and even perform live with just your MIDI keyboard or pad controller
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__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
Last edited by PitchSlap; 12-28-2010 at 01:26 PM.
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01-04-2011, 08:26 AM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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I absolutely LOVED the concept of the Matrix in SONAR. Oh boy, for sound designing/live sound/media compositions it was AWESOME.
But, alas - in Reaper - where do I turn?
Please!
Ben
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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01-04-2011, 09:00 AM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 302
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Sadly, Matrix View in Sonar (I'm speaking of X1) is not yet where it could be. Have a look at the old Project 5. That had Matrix View, and it was pretty cool.
For years I have been asking Cockos to implement something similar, but to no avail. It must be really difficult and I can see how they would rather beef up the midi side a little more beforehand.
But just imagine, something better than Ableton Live's Session View in Reaper...
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01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: They put me in a home.
Posts: 3,432
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yup!!!
__________________
47.8% of statistics are made up.
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