Analogues outboard vs PC Plug-ins

[Bob Headroom]

Hi all

I've recently bought the following outbaord gear:

Lexicon MPX100 Multi effects
Digitech Quad 4 Multi effects
TL Audio C5021 Valve Compressor
Behringer MDX2200 Compressor
DBX 266xl Compressor
Alesis 3630 Compressor
Behringer XR4400 Multigate
SPL Vitalizer 9736
Slapback Audio Scintillator

(I also got some pre-amps, a headphone amp, etc. but they are less relevant to the thread).

This week I have been trying to get my head around patchbays, and how I will set up the gear using ADAT from my EMU 1820M soundcard, an ADDA unit, and probably several patchbays! How confusing?!? I'm also trying to work out all the leads I'm going to need and the list seems to be growing astronomically (as well as expensively).

I'm quite new to recording, and certainly very new to using outboard gear. I bought all the gear quite cheap in a job lot and thought that along with my recent new build quad core PC I'd be set up for some years to come....

But the more I think about it all, the more I wonder whether I'm doing the right thiing seeing as most people seem to be getting rid of hardware in favour of going all in the box with plug-ins and all.

I'd appreciate any views people care to share, or if you havent got the time, I'd really appreciate a quick tick in the box of which route you would go down.
If people reckon "a mixture", saying what I should keep and what I should sell would be a great help.

Many thanks

Max

[Jae.Thomas]

i would say overall, sell it.

however, if there is anything you need that effects the signal that you may need for monitoring, i would say keep it.

[Curvespace]

Seems to me that you've bitten off a little more than you can chew and will probably spend more time setting-up your gear and learning all the sub-menus than you will actually writing tunes.

My advice would be...hmm, this is a tough one because there's gear there that I personally wouldn't get rid of, but my requirements are different from your own.

In general, my approach to hardware is to use 'character' equipment (i.e. things that still can't quite be replicated in software - to my ears). This includes really high-end stuff, vintage units or decent analogue kit.

You've got a bunch of compressors there - unless you ever think you'd use them all at the same time then I'd get rid of some. Keep the valve compressor though.

Maybe keep the Lexicon just for the reverb on there, though to be honest you could just use a free convolution reverb these days.

Argh, this is a tough one, the only solution is give all the kit to me!

[helpdeskeddy]

Hi MD,

I think it depends on what you're gonna do with all this equipment.
If you're tracking a lot of signals at the same time, the compressors and gate could come in handy.
But if you're recording midi and the occasional audio... and just want to send the signal through the analogue gear for un-digitalizing... then you have different needs.

I would just set the DAW up without the outboard gear and start recording and mixing... If you ever wonder what that silver or black box sounds like, just set it up.

.. and if it was up to me, I'd keep:
TL Audio C5021 Valve Compressor
DBX 266xl Compressor
SPL Vitalizer 9736
Slapback Audio Scintillator

Originally Posted by Curvespace

In general, my approach to hardware is to use 'character' equipment (i.e. things that still can't quite be replicated in software - to my ears). This includes really high-end stuff, vintage units or decent analogue kit.

I agree...

[larrygates]

Keep

Lexicon MPX100 Multi effects (Maybe there are better verbs for less money)
Digitech Quad 4 Multi effects
TL Audio C5021 Valve Compressor
SPL Vitalizer 9736
Slapback Audio Scintillator

Sell

Behringer MDX2200 Compressor
DBX 266xl Compressor
Alesis 3630 Compressor
Behringer XR4400 Multigate

About the patch bay going to ADAT and your EMU. That's going to be really tough. As I suppose you mean light pipe 8 channels into your EMU from a patch bay? If that's the case you'd need A/D D/A that patches your analog patch bay into your digital streams. Meaning you'd need 2 patch bays. Something from RME could do, but that's all too much money and too complicated. What you should do is either look for an interface with 16 to 24 I/O (Preferably balanced TRS) or invest in a Digital Console. Yamaha, Mackie, etc . . . or even get a small analog console, again I'm talking in the 1200 dollar range. That way you can patch everything directly into the board, and still use an analog patch bay, and monitor all your signals.

Don't listen to Jason, he doesn't know what he's talking about. If you want to have a sound the breaths and pumps, with the right feel, it's much easier to get there with some outboard. It can be done without it, but it takes some skill. Both methods do actually.

That's what I'd do.

I personally have

2 Amek 9098 Pre-Amp / EQ
2 Martech MSS-10 Pre Amp
2 DBX 160x
2 Aphex 651 Tube compressors
1 Behringer V Verb unit
1 DBX 150x Noise Reduction unit
1 Tascam Cassette Deck 122 MKII
1 Demeter Tube DI
1 Country Man DI
Lot's of samplers / Synths.

I use Almost ALL of it.

And will be getting 1 Valley People DynaMite.

Or a DBX Lunch box filled with Crap.

And I have a ton of plug-ins. And I have Clients!

The most important part.

[Bob Headroom]

Thanks guys - I really appreciate the helpful replies. Gotta say, I love this forum!

I've posted elsewhere and it's interesting to read the wide variety of responses. However, those who say what I should keep tend to suggest the same items - especially the TLAudio, Vitalizer and Scintillator. The DBX is a mixed bag - some say keep it, others that it is utterly worthless!

Larrygates - if you dont mind, I'll quickly run through what my plan was. I've got an EMU 1820M (6 IO channels). I was looking to get a Behringer ADA8000/Focusrite Octopre LE - or something similar - and connecting it via ADAT, giving an extra 8 IO channels. I've then got the pre-amps, if I need them. But I've also got the extra 8 channels for routing the outboard gear. IF I can get it all connected to a patchbay or 3 in the right way.

Does that make sense, and if so is it feasible?

Thanks again guys

Max

[larrygates]

Yes, that's perfectly feasible.

You'll only have certain clock issues from time to time, and you won't have 8 I/O when you go above 48KHz. (I never record above there personally).

You figured out a nice simple solution to the problem, only clocking is going to be a bitch till you get it sorted.

Although, if you had an all analog solution, you could run 96K and have all your outboard (since 96K and plugins tend to choke a system) hence outboard! No CPU cycles (almost none)

Originally Posted by Max Dread

Thanks guys - I really appreciate the helpful replies. Gotta say, I love this forum!

I've posted elsewhere and it's interesting to read the wide variety of responses. However, those who say what I should keep tend to suggest the same items - especially the TLAudio, Vitalizer and Scintillator. The DBX is a mixed bag - some say keep it, others that it is utterly worthless!

Larrygates - if you dont mind, I'll quickly run through what my plan was. I've got an EMU 1820M (6 IO channels). I was looking to get a Behringer ADA8000/Focusrite Octopre LE - or something similar - and connecting it via ADAT, giving an extra 8 IO channels. I've then got the pre-amps, if I need them. But I've also got the extra 8 channels for routing the outboard gear. IF I can get it all connected to a patchbay or 3 in the right way.

Does that make sense, and if so is it feasible?

Thanks again guys

Max

[Bob Headroom]

Thanks Larrygates

I tend to record at 44.1/24bit at the mo, so the 48k restriction does not bother me. From what I have read, 48khz is a restirction of ADAT per se.

I'm totally new to any form of clocking, but I presumed I would use the clock on the EMU as master, and just slave the ADAT unit from that. Wold that cause problems?

What seems more likely to be a headache (other than the patchbay and leads) is the latency issue. I understand that if Im doing a mix and using outboard gear, the signal has to travel through DA and then AD convertors which add latency, and that this is more difficult to account for than the latency introduced by plug-ins which the sequencer usually automatically deals with.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Thanks once again to all contributors. It really means a lot.

Max.

[larrygates]

Well, as far as clocking goes, if the Emu does the trick correctly (I'm thinking it won't as it probably doesn't have dedicated parts for clocking gear). But it may, and all that shit about clocking is for the birds, OR, if you have 128 channels of digital I/O. Never touched that many of dig before personally. Analog yes.

You should be fine with Emu by itself.

As far as the latency goes, Reaper, and a lot of other PRO programs compensate for that with the I/O plug in itself. In reaper, I can mult out drums to my compressors, EQ, then Pre-Amps (that's a chain of 3 analog devices) hit the calculate latency button on the reaper insert plug, and the shit stays in time. Is it phase locked, down to the sub-sample level? Fuck if I know or Care.

If you are new to outboard, get used to printing tracks a lot, and also, fuck around with NOT touching the dials on your gear, or leaving them the same for MANY mixes, and just mess with the gain staging INTO your outboard boxes, it'll make recall A LOT easier for you, and you'll find it'll work better than fiddling knobs all the time. Trust me on this. Gain staging is the clue to (among others) analog chains and sound. It's what all these damn saturation / clipping / distortion plug ins are "trying" to do.

Grab the SilverSpike TapeIt2 plug-ins. It's an outboard junkie's right hand.

Originally Posted by Max Dread

Thanks Larrygates

I tend to record at 44.1/24bit at the mo, so the 48k restriction does not bother me. From what I have read, 48khz is a restirction of ADAT per se.

I'm totally new to any form of clocking, but I presumed I would use the clock on the EMU as master, and just slave the ADAT unit from that. Wold that cause problems?

What seems more likely to be a headache (other than the patchbay and leads) is the latency issue. I understand that if Im doing a mix and using outboard gear, the signal has to travel through DA and then AD convertors which add latency, and that this is more difficult to account for than the latency introduced by plug-ins which the sequencer usually automatically deals with.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Thanks once again to all contributors. It really means a lot.

Max.

[Curvespace]

Originally Posted by larrygates

Grab the SilverSpike TapeIt2 plug-ins. It's an outboard junkie's right hand.

The latest Reaper Pre build has got some updated rendering options specifically for bouncing down from external gear, so it looks like it's going to be getting some love.

[Heartfelt]

Larry,
Do you render with out board? If so, how is that done in Reaper? It was cake in PTLE but I havent figured it out here.

[Curvespace]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Larry,
Do you render with out board? If so, how is that done in Reaper? It was cake in PTLE but I havent figured it out here.

I'm pretty sure he uses SilverSpike TapeIt2. From what I've read elsewhere, you can use it to render multiple tracks at once.

[Blechi]

Originally Posted by Max Dread

Thanks Larrygates
...
I'm totally new to any form of clocking, but I presumed I would use the clock on the EMU as master, and just slave the ADAT unit from that. Wold that cause problems?
...

Don't worry about ADAT and clocking. ADAT is a selfclocking digital format (although it can also be clocked externally). Just set up your audio interface as ADAT master and the ADA8000 (or whatever) as ADAT slave. You can still upgrade to a master clock (via BNC) later if you have jitter problems or so. I clock my ADA8000s via lightpipe (ADAT) as slave with a FF800 as master -> no problems at all.

As far as the MPX 100 is concerned you can save the DA/AD stage by using the S/PDIF output of the MPX 100 and a S/PDIF input of your audio interface (if available).

hth
Blechi