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03-18-2020, 04:15 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,185
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What is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope?
Hi, what is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope (modulation, pitch, etc.)? Is there anything I need to consider? What are the best settings in Reaper?
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03-18-2020, 05:20 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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i'm not totally sure what you are asking, but i'm guessing you are talking about 7 bit or 14 bit CC messages (pitch wheel is different, strictly speaking not a CC and can't be changed resolution wise i don't think).
14 bit is higher resolution so gives you more potential changes to the controller you are changing, if the synth parameter supports it, so this would probably be what you want to use if you don't want noticable "stepping" in the sound.
Basically 7 bit gives you 128 possible steps whereas 14 bit gives you 16384.
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03-18-2020, 05:44 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,185
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I especially mean the time resolution for sample accurate modulation when rendering (PPQ, Block Size, ASIO Buffer, etc?). But also how to use 14 bit CC messages.
Last edited by mawi; 03-18-2020 at 05:50 PM.
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03-18-2020, 06:36 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi
I especially mean the time resolution for sample accurate modulation when rendering (PPQ, Block Size, ASIO Buffer, etc?). But also how to use 14 bit CC messages.
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I'm not sure i understand, i thought that CC messages in the MIDI editor were governed timing-wise by quantize (& ppq). I think block size might be relevant for live playing etc. but not so much for rendering.
14 bit messages basically involves using 2 CCs (MSB & LSB) for a parameter rather than just one.
Last edited by domzy; 03-18-2020 at 06:42 PM.
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03-18-2020, 07:04 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,185
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Thanks domzy!
What about the project sample rate? Does it have any influence?
Does anybody have a solid knowledge?
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03-18-2020, 11:29 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi
Hi, what is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope (modulation, pitch, etc.)?
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Using a decent hardware controller and recording the midi messages provides the best human touch.
-Michael
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03-20-2020, 06:52 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Using a decent hardware controller and recording the midi messages provides the best human touch.
-Michael
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i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
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03-20-2020, 07:34 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
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It's still not clear what you mean - you seem to be implying that it's got something to do with audio settings, but you are asking about CC envelopes which are MIDI?
Maybe if you explain what problems you are having someone might be able to give a better answer.
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03-21-2020, 12:37 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
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Currently there only are two different resolutions used by Midi aware software (and hardware - not counting the Midi-alike Mackie protocol): seven bits (128 steps), and 14 bits (16384 steps, called "high resolution CC"). Both are supported in Reaper whenever Reaper explicitly deals with Midi.
But very (!) unfortunately only very few Midi aware VSTs support high resolution Midi, even though it would be easy to do.
Hence in certain cases it might be beneficial not to feed Midi to the VST but instead use DAW parameters and have Reaper control same by assigning them to a high resolution Midi CC.
-Michael
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03-21-2020, 07:34 PM
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#10
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 55
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In my case I have 14 bits, called high resolution CC because I love to work in this resolution. All depends on what you want, and your vision in your eyes.
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03-21-2020, 11:04 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDouglas
In my case I have 14 bits, called high resolution CC because I love to work in this resolution. All depends on what you want, and your vision in your eyes.
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What VSTs do you have that digest High Resolution Midi ?
-Michael
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03-22-2020, 07:42 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
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I think Michael was referring to getting the best velocity scaling related to human touch.
I use regular CCs and have to problem. A lot depends on the VSTi you're using. I use Kontakt for everything and it works great.
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03-23-2020, 02:51 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
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AFAIK, unfortunately Kontakt does not support High resolution. Supposed a library could do it by receiving both CC #s and combining them.
-Michael
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03-23-2020, 03:32 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Polandia
Posts: 3,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
What VSTs do you have that digest High Resolution Midi ?
-Michael
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Probably none, it seems to be a low flying spam account with impressive longevity.
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03-23-2020, 07:24 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
AFAIK, unfortunately Kontakt does not support High resolution. Supposed a library could do it by receiving both CC #s and combining them.
-Michael
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Yeah but Kontakt does have "Smoothing". However, you don't want to use much. I did some extensive testing a few years back and found CC11 with about 225/250 smoothing was close to the same smoothing that CC7 has naturally.
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03-25-2020, 01:57 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope, as set in:
Preferences -> MIDI -> CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items.
I'm not sure about this, and it may depend on the VST, if the VST has a maximum PPQ setting. The default is 32 PPQ, and this may be sufficient for most 120bpm songs, since I doubt that the ear can distinguish approximately 64 changes per second.
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03-26-2020, 10:51 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope, as set in:
Preferences -> MIDI -> CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items.
I'm not sure about this, and it may depend on the VST, if the VST has a maximum PPQ setting. The default is 32 PPQ, and this may be sufficient for most 120bpm songs, since I doubt that the ear can distinguish approximately 64 changes per second.
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Actually I had problems with 32 PPQ Julian, I've actually go mine set for 512 events per quarter note in preferences. Of course with Reaper-6 that doesn't mean anything with the way the CC envelopes are set up now.
Ha ha, or does it? I wonder if the slopes on the CC envelopes takes into account our PPQ settings?
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03-26-2020, 11:01 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope,
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As it does not make any sense to send the same CC value twice, timing resolution and value resolution of a slope are tightly interconnected.
-Michael
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03-27-2020, 01:48 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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I vote for 192. Been using it for decades in other sequencing software & of course reaper.
So far I havent felt the need to go to 14 bit either. Be interesting to see what the MIDI2 spec says on the subject once we know it is ALL ironed out and there are no "we may change thats" left.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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03-27-2020, 02:44 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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When discussing PPQ stuff, we must be careful to distinguish between these settings:
* CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items
* Events per quarter note when drawing in CC lanes
* Ticks per quarter note for new MIDI items
By default, the first two are 32, and the third is 960.
Last edited by juliansader; 03-27-2020 at 03:32 AM.
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