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Old 03-18-2020, 04:15 PM   #1
mawi
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Default What is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope?

Hi, what is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope (modulation, pitch, etc.)? Is there anything I need to consider? What are the best settings in Reaper?
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:20 PM   #2
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i'm not totally sure what you are asking, but i'm guessing you are talking about 7 bit or 14 bit CC messages (pitch wheel is different, strictly speaking not a CC and can't be changed resolution wise i don't think).
14 bit is higher resolution so gives you more potential changes to the controller you are changing, if the synth parameter supports it, so this would probably be what you want to use if you don't want noticable "stepping" in the sound.
Basically 7 bit gives you 128 possible steps whereas 14 bit gives you 16384.
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:44 PM   #3
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I especially mean the time resolution for sample accurate modulation when rendering (PPQ, Block Size, ASIO Buffer, etc?). But also how to use 14 bit CC messages.

Last edited by mawi; 03-18-2020 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 03-18-2020, 06:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi View Post
I especially mean the time resolution for sample accurate modulation when rendering (PPQ, Block Size, ASIO Buffer, etc?). But also how to use 14 bit CC messages.
I'm not sure i understand, i thought that CC messages in the MIDI editor were governed timing-wise by quantize (& ppq). I think block size might be relevant for live playing etc. but not so much for rendering.

14 bit messages basically involves using 2 CCs (MSB & LSB) for a parameter rather than just one.

Last edited by domzy; 03-18-2020 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 03-18-2020, 07:04 PM   #5
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Thanks domzy!

What about the project sample rate? Does it have any influence?

Does anybody have a solid knowledge?
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Hi, what is the best resolution for a MIDI CC envelope (modulation, pitch, etc.)?
Using a decent hardware controller and recording the midi messages provides the best human touch.

-Michael
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Old 03-20-2020, 06:52 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Using a decent hardware controller and recording the midi messages provides the best human touch.

-Michael
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
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Old 03-20-2020, 07:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi View Post
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
It's still not clear what you mean - you seem to be implying that it's got something to do with audio settings, but you are asking about CC envelopes which are MIDI?
Maybe if you explain what problems you are having someone might be able to give a better answer.
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Old 03-21-2020, 12:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi View Post
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
Currently there only are two different resolutions used by Midi aware software (and hardware - not counting the Midi-alike Mackie protocol): seven bits (128 steps), and 14 bits (16384 steps, called "high resolution CC"). Both are supported in Reaper whenever Reaper explicitly deals with Midi.

But very (!) unfortunately only very few Midi aware VSTs support high resolution Midi, even though it would be easy to do.

Hence in certain cases it might be beneficial not to feed Midi to the VST but instead use DAW parameters and have Reaper control same by assigning them to a high resolution Midi CC.

-Michael
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:34 PM   #10
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In my case I have 14 bits, called high resolution CC because I love to work in this resolution. All depends on what you want, and your vision in your eyes.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:04 PM   #11
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In my case I have 14 bits, called high resolution CC because I love to work in this resolution. All depends on what you want, and your vision in your eyes.
What VSTs do you have that digest High Resolution Midi ?

-Michael
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Old 03-22-2020, 07:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawi View Post
i'm not talking about external hardware controllers, but about midi cc envelopes inside reaper to control vst instruments. what do i have to set in reaper to get the best/most accurate resolution?
I think Michael was referring to getting the best velocity scaling related to human touch.

I use regular CCs and have to problem. A lot depends on the VSTi you're using. I use Kontakt for everything and it works great.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:51 AM   #13
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AFAIK, unfortunately Kontakt does not support High resolution. Supposed a library could do it by receiving both CC #s and combining them.

-Michael
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What VSTs do you have that digest High Resolution Midi ?

-Michael
Probably none, it seems to be a low flying spam account with impressive longevity.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:24 PM   #15
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AFAIK, unfortunately Kontakt does not support High resolution. Supposed a library could do it by receiving both CC #s and combining them.

-Michael
Yeah but Kontakt does have "Smoothing". However, you don't want to use much. I did some extensive testing a few years back and found CC11 with about 225/250 smoothing was close to the same smoothing that CC7 has naturally.
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Old 03-25-2020, 01:57 PM   #16
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I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope, as set in:

Preferences -> MIDI -> CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items.

I'm not sure about this, and it may depend on the VST, if the VST has a maximum PPQ setting. The default is 32 PPQ, and this may be sufficient for most 120bpm songs, since I doubt that the ear can distinguish approximately 64 changes per second.
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope, as set in:

Preferences -> MIDI -> CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items.

I'm not sure about this, and it may depend on the VST, if the VST has a maximum PPQ setting. The default is 32 PPQ, and this may be sufficient for most 120bpm songs, since I doubt that the ear can distinguish approximately 64 changes per second.
Actually I had problems with 32 PPQ Julian, I've actually go mine set for 512 events per quarter note in preferences. Of course with Reaper-6 that doesn't mean anything with the way the CC envelopes are set up now.

Ha ha, or does it? I wonder if the slopes on the CC envelopes takes into account our PPQ settings?
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I suspect that Mawi is referring to *time* resolution of CC envelope interpolation, i.e. how often does REAPER send CC messages while playing a CC envelope,
As it does not make any sense to send the same CC value twice, timing resolution and value resolution of a slope are tightly interconnected.
-Michael
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:48 AM   #19
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I vote for 192. Been using it for decades in other sequencing software & of course reaper.

So far I havent felt the need to go to 14 bit either. Be interesting to see what the MIDI2 spec says on the subject once we know it is ALL ironed out and there are no "we may change thats" left.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:44 AM   #20
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When discussing PPQ stuff, we must be careful to distinguish between these settings:
* CC segment interpolation resolution for new MIDI items
* Events per quarter note when drawing in CC lanes
* Ticks per quarter note for new MIDI items

By default, the first two are 32, and the third is 960.

Last edited by juliansader; 03-27-2020 at 03:32 AM.
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