Please: NO SPLITS option when recording takes

[FeedTheCat]

Hi guys, I made a mockup of how I understand both your concepts. In my mind, zones have become similar to regions, as you can draw them in, adjust the size of them, and create them from time selection. Time selection could also be used to cycle through possible zones in the selection.

Track 1 now has two playlists and playlist regions that are bound to the track (Kenny's zones).

Item 1 has item regions that are bound to the item (ferropop's zones). I made them yellow so that they stand out, but they probably should have take/item color. Notice that there are no splits in the item.

The regions (zones) determine the active playlist/take and therefore what you hear. Both concepts are independent, and could be implemented on their own.

For items, the recording of new takes could look very similar to how my scripts work in the post above. But punch-ins now can create new zones on existing/extended items. (cough, I'd be grateful if someone could actually test if the scripts work ) Finding an unused modifier to draw in the zones could also be tricky, maybe it should be like take envelopes where your mouse has to be exactly on it.

Thoughts?

[joshxtra]

My Problem with Zones:

Everything is bound to the Zoom Level of the Track, as item/zone-height is scaled by trackheight.
If you stack multiple takes in one Track, the single takes will get very small until you zoom in.
So comping would also be a matter of constantly zooming in and out, just to accomodate the different number of takes on one track (note, that this is already a problem with takes in reaper).
A lot of this zooming could be handled by the Zones-System itself, but you would need a switch to turn auto-zooming on and off, as I don't want the track height to change everytime I click a zone.

Either way, intertwining takes, items/zones and tracks that deeply makes things convoluted.

Why not just use playlists? They are way more elegant. In order for Reaper to become on par with the other daws, this feature would need to be implemented from the ground up. I see no other way.

Please have a look at how it is done in Studio One, the most sleek implementation of playlists I have seen yet (this would need area selection though):

https://youtu.be/dULCmVeLZHQ?t=130

[Kenny Gioia]

As I've been trying to work my head around this I can't get passed the way things normally get updated in REAPER.

If the dev team did decide to do this, they would change whatever we came up with to work the way REAPER already works.

IOW - There are already rules that work in REAPER that none of us really understand. So I think it's best not to get too deep into how to accomplish anything and focus on what we really want and let the dev team figure it out.

BTW - Instead of playlists, I've started calling them "sub-tracks". So you can create as many sub-tracks as you want within each track.

[ferropop]

Yeah there's literally no way this is gonna happen lol, but sometimes laying the groundwork might lead to something down the line.

Joshxtra I'm not sure what you mean about zoom level. I'm just proposing that instead of destructive splits that we get "zone" splits, and all they do is designate the bounds of the active takes -- exactly how splits do right now, but without splitting the original takes.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by joshxtra

My Problem with Zones:
Please have a look at how it is done in Studio One, the most sleek implementation of playlists I have seen yet (this would need area selection though):

https://youtu.be/dULCmVeLZHQ?t=130

yes that's quite perfectly implemented!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Yeah there's literally no way this is gonna happen

It's not going to happen exactly how we create it.

[xav]

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

I actually like how reaper splits new takes. It can get messy though with multiple punch-ins, that's where time selection auto-punch comes in handy. But once you have created a mess, there's not really a way back...

Anyhow, I spent quite some time today writing a "little" script. It basically lets you record new takes without creating new splits. It doesn't extend items, I might add that if people are interested.

Simply toggle it on when you want that functionality as if it were a recording option. Let me know if it works for you or if you find bugs

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38617/FTC_...w%20splits.lua

Thank you very much FeedtheCat for your script. It works and I think it could avoid a lot of end splits.
But long recordings with a lot of rerecordings will give a lot of useless empty lanes.

What about Layers? Nobody likes that? I must admit I never understood which is the audible layer and why samples change row when I slit them and why I cannot change the row myself. Very confusing. But Serr talked about a super workflow using that mode in this threat.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209413
I also use a Reno script that changes Layers in take... and that also can be a solution to avoid splits : First record the song in Layer mode, then switch to take mode, and all the sample will have same length, but editing will begin there, and it could be longer because we have to create splits :-)

[FeedTheCat]

Originally Posted by xav

Thank you very much FeedtheCat for your script. It works and I think it could avoid a lot of end splits.

Thanks for trying it out! I do think that the second version (with extending) is actually better since it's closer to what OP wanted. Here's the link:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38632/FTC_...20items%29.lua

Originally Posted by xav

What about Layers? Nobody likes that? I must admit I never understood which is the audible layer and why samples change row when I slit them and why I cannot change the row myself.

I agree, layers could be very useful. I really like that they work like video by default, as in that you can only hear the one at the very bottom. But since you can not change the order of layers (and change what you hear) any layer-workflow seems really limited to me. I really wonder why, would feel really intuitive if you could just drag an drop layers how you want them... I did look into it. I think that I could add this functionality with a script. But also, that is something that probably should be native.

[xav]

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

I do think that the second version (with extending) is actually better since it's closer to what OP wanted.

I didn't noticed difference. I use them with audio files with same nice result :-)

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

I agree, layers could be very useful. I really like that they work like video by default, as in that you can only hear the one at the very bottom.

I never understood which one is audible. In my case, sometimes all are audible, or when crossfade automatic is enabled, only the last recorded, I think... but I'm not sure because sometimes a sample is anyway audible although it is above another (not muted) one , and when I split, I don't understand anything. I didn't find enough documentation in the user guide.

[ferropop]

It seems like a lot of core functionality already exists in Reaper to achieve what we (or at least I'm) proposing comping should look like.

1. Layers, but like in Cubase/PT where every take pass gets its own "subtrack" and each is soloable if you wanted to audition a full take on its own.

2. Zone Markers. Literally use the current Splits implementation of how creating the active takes works, but using non-destructive Zone Markers instead of splits. Take passes stay whole, independent, etc.

Those are my main points -- LAYERS(ish) with ZONE MARKERS for comping. I think the rest is totally up for debate, but those two key things together I think gets us playlist-like takes with a whole new better non-destructive way of dicing comps.

[ferropop]

The Studio One method is the closest to anything I've seen, but again it's splitting! He dices it up, then says something about Gluing it to finalize. My proposition leaves the Item completely split-free, but once expanded shows you how it's diced. It's an Item! It's meant to be a container unit, ie the Verse Vocal ITEM, not the Series Of Chopped Up Pieces Comprising The Verse Vocal "ITEM(s)". Why have items at all then?

Does that click with you guys? Like I understand leveraging Splitting as a delineator because it's there, but it's not meant for that task! Splitting is for Separating things that should be Separate, not delineating things that make up a whole.

[n0ne]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

BTW - Instead of playlists, I've started calling them "sub-tracks". So you can create as many sub-tracks as you want within each track.

Been reading a long with you guys for a bit. Some sort of playlisting would absolutely be awesome, I also don't really like all the splitting. But some of what is being suggested, and I think what Kenny is saying is the same: could this not be achieved by child tracks?

I'm playing with the idea to make a script that will do playlists by showing and hiding different takes on child tracks. The topmost child could be the "active" playlist and all sub children could be hidden, active playlist items moved on main track when you're ready to fold.

Any thoughts on that?

[carbon]

Originally Posted by ferropop

The Studio One method is the closest to anything I've seen, but again it's splitting! He dices it up, then says something about Gluing it to finalize. My proposition leaves the Item completely split-free, but once expanded shows you how it's diced. It's an Item! It's meant to be a container unit, ie the Verse Vocal ITEM, not the Series Of Chopped Up Pieces Comprising The Verse Vocal "ITEM(s)". Why have items at all then?

Does that click with you guys? Like I understand leveraging Splitting as a delineator because it's there, but it's not meant for that task! Splitting is for Separating things that should be Separate, not delineating things that make up a whole.

Right now we have something called "Empty items" (insert > ...).
That could be maybe utilized as a container, by dragging in items or imploding items.
Now it doesn't work - dragging does nothing, imploding results in just regular item takes, ignoring the empty item.

Don't know it that would make sense or if somebody already suggested it earlier.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by n0ne

Been reading a long with you guys for a bit. Some sort of playlisting would absolutely be awesome, I also don't really like all the splitting. But some of what is being suggested, and I think what Kenny is saying is the same: could this not be achieved by child tracks?

I'm playing with the idea to make a script that will do playlists by showing and hiding different takes on child tracks. The topmost child could be the "active" playlist and all sub children could be hidden, active playlist items moved on main track when you're ready to fold.

Any thoughts on that?

But how do you split up the active take if not splitting n0ne? That's my whole push, for a new thing I called zone markers. How the takes are organized/contained is the playlist/child-track part of it, and yeah whatever gets it done best, but in the end it's the splits we're trying to get rid of for something splits aren't intended for.

[n0ne]

Tried this out today. Work pretty well, and seems to me how playlists work:


What I would add is a script that can automatically mute/unmute the selected "take". Maybe some other cool actions for copying the selection to the first (active) take.

Also with audio items and heal split actions exploding audio onto multiple tracks is easy. Doing this with midi would require some extra work cause "heal items" doesn't work on midi items.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by n0ne

What I would add is a script that can automatically mute/unmute the selected "take". Maybe some other cool actions for copying the selection to the first (active) take.

You do realize with this method that 100 tracks with 20 "playlists" would mean a session with 2000 tracks, right? And that Reaper's GUI basically grinds to a halt somewhere after 500 tracks?

This is not a solution. Especially for those of us using large templates. We need actual playlists or track versions (whatever you want to call them). That also respect track grouping.

[xav]

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...28&postcount=1

This Playlist solution is great. I cannot use it because it crashes (certainly my fault), and I also don't understand how it really works. But it could be a solution.

[ferropop]

Sexan is doing unbelievable things with the stone tools at his disposal.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Sexan is doing unbelievable things with the stone tools at his disposal.

He really, really is. Hopefully they give him some bronze or iron to work with. Or just implement the script natively.

[xav]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

He really, really is. Hopefully they give him some bronze or iron to work with. Or just implement the script natively.

Can you really use that script? Without problem?
I don't know what fails. I work with a customized version and I guess there are incompatibilities.

[xav]

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

Thanks for trying it out! I do think that the second version (with extending) is actually better since it's closer to what OP wanted. Here's the link:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38632/FTC_...20items%29.lua

I still don't understand the difference but i noticed a little bug... in my configuration. If I undo a take, it remains above the others (and I strangely cannot remove it, but I can move the takes under that one)... very strange.
But if that can be fixed, your workaround seems really effective to me. I use several shortcuts, very easy (à la Ableton) and a custom action to create splits with time selection and it could be my favorite solution, with native comp in reaper. Congratulations and thank you very much.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by xav

Can you really use that script? Without problem?
I don't know what fails. I work with a customized version and I guess there are incompatibilities.

Unfortunately, it has not been updated and is currently problematic/buggy - especially with Reaper 6. And Sexan hasn't been seen in a while either (hope he is well!) He had said in the script thread he was already way behind on his Area Selection script and couldn't dedicate any time to the Track Versions script until he was more caught up with Area 51.

Another reason for the developers to just adopt both of those scripts. Feel free to chime in here as well.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2247030

[FeedTheCat]

Originally Posted by xav

I still don't understand the difference but i noticed a little bug... in my configuration. If I undo a take, it remains above the others (and I strangely cannot remove it, but I can move the takes under that one)... very strange.
But if that can be fixed, your workaround seems really effective to me. I use several shortcuts, very easy (à la Ableton) and a custom action to create splits with time selection and it could be my favorite solution, with native comp in reaper. Congratulations and thank you very much.

There is only a difference if the recorded take is longer or starts earlier than the item underneath. The normal version will create splits at item edges, the extending version will extend the length of the underlying item to match the new take (if possible).

I think the bug you are mentioning is actually a feature (kind of ). The script creates two undo points when recording. The first is recording takes in separate lanes (layers). The second is merging these layers into your existing items. If the script messes up somehow, you can always undo once to get your original take back. You can enable options-> Show overlapping media items in lanes, to see what is actually happening. In short, you need to undo twice to undo a recorded take.

I could have a look into having only one undo point if you want. Not sure it's possible. Other than that, I'm glad the script is useful to you

[xav]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Unfortunately, it has not been updated and is currently problematic/buggy - especially with Reaper 6. And Sexan hasn't been seen in a while either (hope he is well!) He had said in the script thread he was already way behind on his Area Selection script and couldn't dedicate any time to the Track Versions script until he was more caught up with Area 51.

Another reason for the developers to just adopt both of those scripts. Feel free to chime in here as well.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2247030

OH Great work! I thought those scripts were part of Track Version.
Thank you to show me that.

[xav]

Originally Posted by FeedTheCat

There is only a difference if the recorded take is longer or starts earlier than the item underneath. The normal version will create splits at item edges, the extending version will extend the length of the underlying item to match the new take (if possible).

I think the bug you are mentioning is actually a feature (kind of ). The script creates two undo points when recording. The first is recording takes in separate lanes (layers). The second is merging these layers into your existing items. If the script messes up somehow, you can always undo once to get your original take back. You can enable options-> Show overlapping media items in lanes, to see what is actually happening. In short, you need to undo twice to undo a recorded take.

I could have a look into having only one undo point if you want. Not sure it's possible. Other than that, I'm glad the script is useful to you

Great you are right! Just 2 undo, or delete active take... So the action is perfect like this. And I really can say it changes live! I really appreciate better Reaper take system thanks to that action.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

[ferropop]

There's no negativity to this post whatsoever so please don't read any into it...I'm just wondering how realistic it might be that Reaper devs might take up something like this? I'm having trouble remembering the last time that anything really "major" was added to Reaper, like honestly it might be as far back as Spectral Peaks and Spectral Edits that something actually new was added, like a feature you can truly look at as an addition. VCAs? I don't really count Take Markers...but yeah lately it just seems like minor improvements and bug-fix after bug-fix (always welcomed obviously) but nothing really chunky or super innovative being added. Thoughts?

*cough*Areaselection...*cough*Zones/playlists

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I'm just wondering how realistic it might be that Reaper devs might take up something like this?

There's only two people that can answer that and even they probably don't have an answer for you.

You have to look at features as bonuses. Not something you can't live without. If you need something now, figure it out. Create a script, a different workflow. It can all be done in some way.

[Zoom_Wajaja]

I think it should be an option to turn off autosplits and also it should be an option to select takes by double clicking instead of single clicking preventing accidental changes in your comping. With those two minor changes/options the take system would be much better and practical.

Another thing that should be easier is to paste an audio as a take and also to be able to move items independently instead of moving them in blocks.

That way is how other Daws like Cubase and PT do it and it's much easier to comp in my experience of using this systems for 15 years. I believe Reaper is the best Daw but this small detail in workflow is a big turn down for a lot of people, because not everyone can take a lot of time to come up with a script or investigate all the forums, it should be more intuitive to solve this problems...Just a humble opinion...

[Julian]

I've always been a bit annoyed at the mess split takes makes as well. Not a criticism at all, I think I just use it more excessively than it was designed for so end up with loads of splits. I like to jam improvisations early on when I'm composing so I end up with a lot of takes, which I just want to select bits I want.

Viewing by lanes is good as long as it's not like more than 6 otherwise it becomes a bit awkward.

Just to chime in with my two cents here, my workaround was a custom action.

The action explodes takes and adds them as children in a Buss and serialises the track names as well as recording them uniformly.



*note you can use extend items to full-length action to chop off the excess.

The Custom action is as follows:

[OLSHALOM]

Originally Posted by Julian

I've always been a bit annoyed at the mess split takes makes as well. Not a criticism at all, I think I just use it more excessively than it was designed for so end up with loads of splits. I like to jam improvisations early on when I'm composing so I end up with a lot of takes, which I just want to select bits I want.

Viewing by lanes is good as long as it's not like more than 6 otherwise it becomes a bit awkward.

Just to chime in with my two cents here, my workaround was a custom action.

The action explodes takes and adds them as children in a Buss and serialises the track names as well as recording them uniformly.



*note you can use extend items to full-length action to chop off the excess.

The Custom action is as follows:

I planned to do something similar, just did'nt find the time.
I'm using as well a "sub-track"-system or however you wanna call it:

It also works for Recording.
It's a very simple straight forward approach based on custom actions.
Nothing fancy. Basically it just creates a new childtrack and copies all items on the parenttrack to that child and mutes the items.

I only got it done by using the item-mute method.
There are several selecting functions missing to get it right.
For example this one:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=233567

There's also a SHOW/HIDE-function
and functions for listening the individual takes,
Which mutes all other items on the childtracks and unmutes the items on the "lane" you wanna listen to.

It will be great to add a function for "comping" the snippets to the parenttrack.
Like it's done in an other DAW I don't want to mention, otherwise i will get to much hate here on this forum. You really have to be careful what you write otherwise you get somehow debarred by the elite-members on this forum.
It really scares me and remembers me to times not long ago in middle europe. :-/
By the way in china it starts to :-/


Well, it's a topic for years and people are posting and discussing about it nearly since the beginning of time (REAPER-TIME-Count).

I'm reading all about it on this forum and the fact that there's a missing link between creativity and programming IS ignored and disdained by certain members. PERIOD!!!!

Sadly, I don't have the money to bring it to the court of justice and i also couldn't pay a lobby, sorry.

And as well, sadly, I'm not a coder.
But one idea is, to let the family of tracks grow and invite a kind of baby-track :-)
Which for example
-is not seen in the Performance-Meter
-has no automation function, volume-knob, etc. (and it would be also great to make it possible in the Custom-Layout-Action for the Default Theme what is sadly not working).

YEAH, yeah, sad times...

[Bobby_M]

I know I'm reviving an older thread but.. I'm relatively new to DAWs in general but I've run through over a dozen full band projects, watched every one of Kenny's videos and read all the posts in this thread. I'm still at a loss here. I understand what takes are. They are items that exist in the same track with some level of overlapping time selection. I understand that the final comping of a track across two or more takes by definition will require cuts at every comp transition. However, there is still a very strong argument for allowing the user to DECIDE where the cuts are made after the tracks are all recorded.

Just as the OP suggested, and many others have chimed in, in the heat of a recording session when you're running the DAW and someone else is tracking drums for example, you just want to be fast and punch in some spots that are sketchy. Even on a simple 7 mic drum kit with a few takes spread across different time selections makes a HUGE mess.

I agree 100% that an easy accommodation without flipping over the apple cart is to make cuts default like it is now and have an option to not cut existing items at newly punched takes. Either leave the items alone or have them extend to the first and last time points of existing items in the track.

The only workaround that I've found so far that makes sense for the way *I* think and work with takes is to pause my recording session after every take, "unloop source" and drag the newly recorded items fore and aft to extents. When that's 7 drum items each time, I hardly consider it a reasonable workaround.

Thanks for reading.

[Zoom_Wajaja]

The only thing that should be added Is the option to turn off autosplits, if people like splits they would use them ass usual, if people don't like them they could turn them off...It can be done with the script FeedTheCat did, the problem Is that 99% of Reaper users Will never know about that script, this option should come inside the program and not be a script, if the problem are autosplits give us an option to turn them off...I believe Reaper adds a lot of unncessary things on every update but this core functionality thing Is never adressed and it's the main reason why a lot of people don't fully switch to Reaper, please add the option to turn off autosplits in takes, if a script can do it you can do it Reaper devs ��

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zoom_Wajaja

The only thing that should be added Is the option to turn off autosplits,

This is impossible regarding the way Reaper works (each take always covers the complete item) and needs a completely new concept. This is discussed in detail in a long thread in the "General" forum -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=210747.

-Michael

[Zoom_Wajaja]

Originally Posted by mschnell

This is impossible regarding the way Reaper works (each take always covers the complete item) and needs a completely new concept. This is discussed in detail in a long thread in the "General" forum -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=210747.

-Michael

If this was impossible then a script could not do it but there's is a script that can do it, it doesn't work perfectly but if a script can do it then the program can do it...I think Reaper adds so much useless stuff in every update that this would really improve the program's workflow, It's the main complaint people has had for years...

[mschnell]

I don't know what the script does, but it cant "simply turn off the autosplits".

-Michael

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I don't know what the script does, but it cant "simply turn off the autosplits".

-Michael

Because we are dealing with the same confusion that caused the "bad day" for the OP last time. Any non-split solutions will not be by changing the way current items/takes work, period, because they are not designed that way at all. You know it, I know it.

As I said before when this confusion cycled around over and over, it's possible using multiple items as takes or something like "track lanes" ... so I suggest people start looking in the pre-release forum for latest developments.

To be clear, arguing the existing items which contain takes can be changed to not have splits is both a technical misunderstanding and a dead-end - there are other ways to fry this fish and I smell frying fish in the pre-release forum.

[Zoom_Wajaja]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I don't know what the script does, but it cant "simply turn off the autosplits".

-Michael

This Is the script and it does exactly that, call it whatever you want but It does what should come coded in the program as an option, it fills with silence before and after the take and doesn't Split any of your takes regardless of the lenght you record making the take system usable for múltiple mic recordings like drums...If a script can do it the program can do it, the problem Is that 99% of the Reaper users Will never know about this option and a lot of people end up not fully switching to Reaper because this option doesn't come inside the program and Many of us do think it's a flaw..I don't care for technical reasons or people playing with words or pretending to be software coders, this is a functionality thing, can it be SO difficult to understand? I don't think so...If a script can do it the program can do it...

Script: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38632/FTC_...20items%29.lua

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zoom_Wajaja

, it fills with silence before and after the take and doesn't Split any of your takes regardless of the lenght you record

This seems like a viable option and also has been discussed in the other thread on that topic. To me, this seems like a good option for the default behavior.

If I find the time, I'll test the script (I never do that kind of recording, myself), regarding
- how the different cases of starting/stopping the recording before/after the start/end of the item/items are handled.
- how the silence before/after the audio in take technically is handled (shift the audio start in the item appropriately and create a tack mute envelope around the actual file ?).
- how comping can be done based on such a recording
- how individual takes can be edited (move left/right, stretch, volume...)

Thanks for the pointers !
-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zoom_Wajaja

the problem Is that 99% of the Reaper users Will never know about this option

Especially if the script is not available in ReaPack and does not provide any documentation to be found and used ....
Unfortunately I don't "speak" LUA and only can try to use the script...
-Michael

[mschnell]

While I generally do love scripts and support the usage of such, in this case I also am inclined to request to implement the functionality of the "Feed The Cat" script - or something similar - natively in Reaper.

-Michael