Output latency issue

[Alleyoop]

I have a latency problem, but most of the information I’ve seen addresses recording latency whereas my problem is when monitoring through my headphones.
I have my Roland TD30 connected to my computer and I use Superior Drummer 2 as a Multichannel Midi track in Reaper. Output is to my digital mixer, a Behringer X32 Producer, via its X- USB Sound card, and I monitor from 2 channels outputting from the mixer to an ear monitoring amplifier. When I strike a drum pad there is a considerable delay in my headphones. I can bypass a lot of relevant questions like ‘do you have enough Ram’ etc. by stating that if I use the exact same setup, except that I use Mixcraft 8 Pro instead of Reaper, I have negligible latency.

This indicates that I have no problems with hardware and hook up and I must have a settings problem in Reaper. I have looked at and changed so many settings in Preferences but nothing seems to help. When I look at Device>ASIO Configuration it tells me that I’m using the X-USB’s Low Latency streaming setting at a buffer size of 256, which is correct.

I’m hoping someone will be able to tip me off to a settings mistake that I could be making.
Any help appreciated.
I could send screen shots of my settings if it’s any help.

Thank you.

[skippertag]

256 is a latency that you always gonna notice when playing live

128 is better
and 64 even better.

I'm working with 128 because of my setup of 2 soundcards and using a tool to combine these two soundcards.

For real recordings I set the latency to just 64

Please double check if Mixcraft is also on 256 latency or not.... and you may want to try that "direct monitoring switch"

[BobF]

Originally Posted by skippertag

256 is a latency that you always gonna notice when playing live

128 is better
and 64 even better.

I'm working with 128 because of my setup of 2 soundcards and using a tool to combine these two soundcards.

For real recordings I set the latency to just 64

Please double check if Mixcraft is also on 256 latency or not.... and you may want to try that "direct monitoring switch"

What tool are you using?

[Alleyoop]

Thanks for the help. Yes, I've used 128 in Mixcraft successfully, the buffer was at 256 when I posted as I had been trouble shooting and trying different things. Unfortunately that's not the issue. In either setting, 128 or 256, the latency in Mixcraft is quite acceptable but Reaper is just unusable for recording or playing my drums at any setting. I had tried to fix this problem a while back and was unsuccessful. The reason I came back to trying again is that I prefer to use Reaper for mixing, but I use Mixcraft for recording my drums and import the midi file into Reaper on another computer. Mostly that works fine, but sometimes, if I'm not careful with tempo settings or whatever, the midi file comes into Reaper at an incorrect tempo and needs to be manually adjusted and that frustrates me and I think 'surely I can be doing the recording in Reaper, I should be able to fix this'. Anyway, I did another recording today and it imported fine into Reaper so I'll just continue doing what works. I'm not sure about direct monitoring switch. If you mean the speaker icon, Record Monitoring, yes I have that switched on otherwise I don't hear anything at all. Thanks.

[Stella645]

Are you sure you don't have any plugin adding the extra latency?
Test in an empty project and make sure nothing is loaded in the MonitorFX rack.

[skippertag]

Originally Posted by BobF

What tool are you using?

Voicemeeter Banana

[skippertag]

Originally Posted by Stella645

Are you sure you don't have any plugin adding the extra latency?
Test in an empty project and make sure nothing is loaded in the MonitorFX rack.

That would have been my next question, too 😎

We are all pretty sure that it's not a reaper problem 😋

Double check also if the Input Chain is empty

[serr]

That block size is literally the 'latency control'. This sets the time you give the computer to processing incoming audio and output it. If the processing doesn't get done in the block size interval you set, you get clicks and pops from dropouts.

You're doing live performance with a MIDI instrument (drum triggers) through a VSTi plugin. You need a system round trip latency well under 11ms to do this with no perceivable lag.

You need to dial down the block size to get there. The numbers don't directly translate to the latency in ms. It depends on what your connected audio interface is capable of and what it's bottom line is.

Some interfaces give you < 11ms round trip latency with a 128 sample block size which leaves decent headroom for processing. Some of the cheaper USB models will need a screaming low block size of 32 samples to even hit < 11ms. And then you have almost zero CPU left for processing.

You have two choices for how to set the block size:
First choice using Reaper:
Tick the box next to block size and enter the value in samples on the Preferences/Audio/Device page in Reaper.
Second choice if the interface you use demands it:
Disable Reaper and use a 3rd party control panel. Untick the box next to block size in Reaper to disable it. Use the proprietary control panel that came with the interface.

[Alleyoop]

Originally Posted by serr

That block size is literally the 'latency control'. This sets the time you give the computer to processing incoming audio and output it. If the processing doesn't get done in the block size interval you set, you get clicks and pops from dropouts.

You're doing live performance with a MIDI instrument (drum triggers) through a VSTi plugin. You need a system round trip latency well under 11ms to do this with no perceivable lag.

You need to dial down the block size to get there. The numbers don't directly translate to the latency in ms. It depends on what your connected audio interface is capable of and what it's bottom line is.

Some interfaces give you < 11ms round trip latency with a 128 sample block size which leaves decent headroom for processing. Some of the cheaper USB models will need a screaming low block size of 32 samples to even hit < 11ms. And then you have almost zero CPU left for processing.

You have two choices for how to set the block size:
First choice using Reaper:
Tick the box next to block size and enter the value in samples on the Preferences/Audio/Device page in Reaper.
Second choice if the interface you use demands it:
Disable Reaper and use a 3rd party control panel. Untick the box next to block size in Reaper to disable it. Use the proprietary control panel that came with the interface.

Thank you for the helpful information and accurate assessment of my situation. When I saw your post I felt sure that you had correctly highlighted my problem, and I was keen to access my setup and apply the block size changes. I’m disappointed, (and embarrassed) to report that I couldn’t get any improvement out of modifying the block size, even down to 32 samples. I tried both methods of changing block size.

One thing I found strange is that the changes I made in Reaper, (box ticked), didn’t seem to make any difference to the latency, even when I dialled up to 1024. I’m not instrument measuring of course, but when I tried dialling up the block size in the X32 control panel, (box unticked), the difference was very noticeable. The latency wasn’t sufficiently reduced when I lowered the setting though, even to 32 samples.

This suggests to me that I have possibly made a settings mistake elsewhere in Reaper’s options. I’ve attached some screen shots in case someone can spot my error.

It takes me less than a minute to change from Reaper to Mixcraft and confirm that yes, all other hardware and software factors remaining the same, I experience negligible latency. Mixcraft does seem to prefer a higher sample rate though; I get some crackling at 64 samples.

My Project is bare, there are only two tracks, no media, and no VST’s on any tracks.

* Drat, my screen shots exceeded the forums size limitation. I'll see if I can edit them tomorrow.

[serr]

If the control is not working like that it suggests something else (ie. another app or control panel app) is at play. With that in mind, I'd look to trying the proprietary control panel app from the interface maker. If there isn't one (ie. it's just supposed to use the OSX class compliant driver), then it's time to look into compatible versions of OSX and that kind of thing.

The bottom line is when the devices are talking properly, that block size control is directly your "lag control" for the system and you can dial it back and forth and directly hear it.

[Alleyoop]

Great, thanks once again for the help. At least it's narrowed down somewhat.
My set up is at a venue for a couple of days so i can't do much at the moment. Fortunately I have my Plan B that I have been using for some months now and I'll just do some research and experimenting along the way when I get a chance and see if I can pin down the source of the problem.

[LugNut]

Hi,
May I ask how is your TD 30 hooked into your comp? Its midi over USB I assume?

Do you have the same latency when triggering superior via the piano roll keys in the midi editor?

Plz include your midi settings from reaper when you post the screenies.

I can tell you this...the whole reason I decided on reaper after I ditched apple was because of its low latency. I use a TD 20 with superior and until mixdown I run an old motu 2408 at 128 and I get < 9 ms round trip.
Looking forward to hearing about your success defeating your issue:-)

[Alleyoop]

Alright, that does sound encouraging!

Q1. Yes, the TD30 is connected directly to the laptop via USB cable

Q2. I can’t say, haven’t tried that on the laptop. I've only used Reaper on the laptop to try and troubleshoot this issue. I have a gig tonight and one Saturday. Hopefully I can find some time to set my system up Friday here at home and I’ll try that.

I hope you can read the screen shots ok, they looked great before I resized them to comply with the upload restriction.

I appreciate the positivity, thanks for replying.

[LugNut]

Hi,
Those settings look OK. 32 is a bit low..leave it at 128 or 256.
Does mix craft have no problem with latency on this laptop?

Maybe try the piano roll with the mouse with superior. If that also has the same issue, then try reinstalling reaper but in a different location and tick portable install. It will not affect your normal install. Then test that.

Gl

[Alleyoop]

Yes I normally run at 128 or 256, just happened to be on 32 for the screenshot as I was experimenting.

Latency is quite acceptable when using Mixcraft.

I tried the piano roll with mouse today, no latency there. So my problem is with TD30 triggering or an input setting?

[LugNut]

Hi,

Interesting. Since it works OK with the exact same hookup in mix craft ,I'm abit at a loss.
There being no latency with mouse....I will check to make sure in my system ..going from memory...that buffer settings change the latency in mouse preview.
Is there anything different in the midi settings between reaper and mix craft settings?
Sorry to send you around hunting, but, do you have a midi keyboard you can use to bypass the td30? Like old school 5 pin?
I leave tonight for a job in the keys. I'll be back Monday at my studio.

[Alleyoop]

Originally Posted by LugNut

Hi,

Interesting. Since it works OK with the exact same hookup in mix craft ,I'm abit at a loss.
There being no latency with mouse....I will check to make sure in my system ..going from memory...that buffer settings change the latency in mouse preview.
Is there anything different in the midi settings between reaper and mix craft settings?
Sorry to send you around hunting, but, do you have a midi keyboard you can use to bypass the td30? Like old school 5 pin?
I leave tonight for a job in the keys. I'll be back Monday at my studio.

Yeah, it's pretty frustrating.

Don't apologise, I appreciate your help. I don't have a midi keyboard, but I do have a Roland Handsonic HPD-20 that I use occasionally. I used it on Saturday night as a matter of fact, a limited space, limited volume private party. Just like the TD30, I use it with Superior Drummer in Mixcraft. It sounds awesome actually, people are amazed that I can get such a great sound out of something the size of a dinner plate! 'Bongos on steroids' one fellow called it.

Anyway, on Sunday I set the Handsonic up at home using Reaper instead of Mixcraft and there WAS latency there. It's hard to tell if there is as much latency as with the TD30, it didn't seem so at first. My appraisal is purely subjective, I'm not measuring, but ultimately, if I play a groove and ask 'would this cut it if I were playing live?', the answer is no. Once again the result is definitely better in Mixcraft.

While I was at it I decided to bypass the X32 and use an old Native Instruments Audio 8 DJ sound card that I used to use before I purchased the X32. I hooked that up to another old mixer and it worked really well. I was a bit surprised, as the DJ8 is a few years old. In Mixcraft the latency was pretty much undetectable at a buffer of 128 and there didn't appear to be any artifacts, clicks, pops or crackles.

In Reaper the latency was still there in that setup too, (Handsonic/Audio DJ8), so it would appear the TD30 isn't the problem, seems like a MIDI input issue or something.

On the one hand you guys have helped to narrow the problem down, but on the other hand there are only a limited number of things it can be. Mysterious as it is, best I let you guys devote your time to your own projects and I'll move on also.

I actually dialed the DJ8 down to 64 samples this morning without any problems. Native Instruments says that is 5.7 ms, so Mixcraft/NI Audio DJ8 has to be a great option for me and I'll just continue to import my recorded files into Reaper.

Thanks again to all who assisted.

[Lunar Ladder]

Originally Posted by skippertag

256 is a latency that you always gonna notice when playing live

That depends on the sample rate. At 44.1 kHz, it's on the high side, yeah, and definitely noticeable. If you're working at 96 kHz, a buffer of 256 samples is clearly faster than 128 at 44.1 kHz . A bit pedantic, yeah, but as these things are totally connected, it's worth to mention anyway.

[grinder]

Alleyoop
Do you use this Handsonic with Reaper and is it easy to connect and use with Reaper?

Grinder

[ivansc]

Nobody seems to have asked you, but WHERE are you setting the buffer to 128? Hopefully it is in the Reaper settigns window that your pics show, but after you pressed the ASIO config button. I am pretty sure this IS what you are doing, but it doesnt hurt to check.
FWIW I have an elderly TD8, much expanded, and have no issues with latency at all using any of the Toontrack or Addictive Drums stuff. FWIW I am using an i7 quad core with 16 gb of ram & an RME interface, which is about the best you can get in terms of latency performance. YMMV