Old 01-05-2014, 10:39 AM   #1
Dannii
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Default RME and SSL - Decisions, Decisions!!

Given the dramatic improvements in processing power vs power consumption in recent CPU technology, I've been contemplating some changes to my studio.
At present, I use my main studio DAW (a desktop PC running Win7 based on a Q9450 CPU) primarily for recording purposes mainly as a multitrack audio recorder and use my laptop (Sony Vaio Duo 11 dual core i5) for MIDI recording, (sync'd to the desktop), VSTi performance and for mixing purposes.

I did a CPU shootout test between these two systems a couple of weeks ago and, much to my surprise, I discovered that the humble little Sony kept up pretty much neck and neck with my somewhat older quad-core desktop even on complex mixes with a lot of channels and many plugins but used TEN TIMES LESS POWER to do so!

This got me thinking of ways to use my Sony for both recording and mixing.
The snags I have run into so far though are that ALL my multi-channel audio interfaces are firewire and the Sony does not have firewire. it has two USB3 ports and a HDMI port (the latter I use for stereo and 5.1 mixing plugged into my Yamaha amp). I have 44 hardware mixer channels and often use 16 of them simultaneously, occasionally more.

So, I got thinking about RME given the great reports I've heard about them here and on other forums and did some research on what they have available and discovered three options that really look compelling, especially that with two of them, I can run 16 channels of SSL A/D and 4 channels of SSL D/A for a surprising price (given the A/D/A is SSL).

Keep in mind that all i/o configurations are based on the fact that I pretty much exclusively work at either 44.1K or 48K.

Option 1 - least expensive, older USB2 interface, all RME
RME Fireface UFX

Total cost ~ AU$2500.
Pros:
* Lowest upfront (unexpanded) cost.
* 12 analog outs unexpanded.
* Direct USB Recording (this really appeals to me as a secondary backup recording stream or even as a primary recording system for live improvisations without running the PC).
* TotalMix FX.

Cons:
* No USB3 (not as futureproof as USB3 interfaces).
* Limited analog input without expansion (12 inputs).
* Limited fully expanded analog inputs (30 inputs).

Option 2 - Mid price, newer USB2 interface, SSL A/D/A
RME MADIface USB
SSL Alpha-Link MX 16-4

RME MADIface USB ~ AU$1250
SSL Alpha-Link 16-4 ~ AU$1615
Total cost ~ AU$2865
Pros:
* 16 analog SSL inputs and 4 analog SSL outputs unexpanded (one SSL interface would cover 80-90 percent of my current requirements).
* Expandable to 64 analog inputs and 16 outputs.

Cons:
* No USB3.
* No TotalMix FX (TotalMix only).
* No Direct USB Recording.

Option 3 - Highest price, newest USB3 interface, SSL A/D/A
RME MADIface XT
SSL Alpha-Link MX 16-4

RME MADIface XT ~ AU$3100
SSL Alpha-Link 16-4 ~ AU$1615
Total cost ~ AU$4715
Pros:
* USB3 (more futureproof).
* TotalMix FX.
* Most expandable (although 196 inputs is way more than I'll ever need, I can expand it to cover all 44 of my mixer channels).
* 18 analog inputs (2 on RME and 16 on SSL) and 8 analog outputs (4 on RME and 4 on SSL) with one SSL interface.

Cons:
* Price.
* No Direct USB Recording.


The big question and the reason for this post.... What would you guys do?
I'm leaning somewhat toward the first option given the price and the fact that the USB2 interface limit will probably not really be an issue for some time to come. I can expand this to 28 analog inputs with one additional ADAT interface which will cover all my uses even if that means repatching sometimes and I REALLY like the idea of the direct to USB recording feature.

Option two and three are appealing given the SSL conversion and the expandability (I'd rarely need to repatch the desk - i/o connections) but I'm not sure the price would be justified given the appeal of the direct to USB recording of option 1.

Does anyone have any direct experience with the comparison of the RME versus the SSL A/D and D/A? SSL is known for their sonic integrity but all the reports are suggesting RME are no slouches either.

Has anyone used the Fireface UFX's direct to USB recording? If so, how reliable is it and can the TotalMix FX be recorded to disk?

One more serious consideration is the noise performance of the RME mic pre's. They claim some pretty impressive specs and I do a lot of low level stereo atmospheric and ambiance recording with a pair of Rode NT2a mics which have extremely low self noise levels. Has anyone done any similar recording through the inbuilt pre's on the Fireface UFX? If so, how quiet are they in real world use?
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:45 AM   #2
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One thing I forgot... If anyone has any plans to sell their Fireface UFX, PLEASE let me know. That would probably make my decision easy!!
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:24 PM   #3
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Dave,
If you got rid of all those keyboards and synths, you wouldn't need so many channels! *BIG GRIN*

If I followed along correctly, good job thinking through the options. Figuring this stuff out can be so complicated sometimes.

- Jeremy
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:40 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
One thing I forgot... If anyone has any plans to sell their Fireface UFX, PLEASE let me know. That would probably make my decision easy!!
I don't because I love it, especially the recording directly to a flash drive. Not sure if I saw where you listed that the UFX is both USB and Firewire.

That being said, I've had mine a little less than a year so hit me up with any questions you may have and I'll chime in.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:45 PM   #5
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Has anyone used the Fireface UFX's direct to USB recording? If so, how reliable is it and can the TotalMix FX be recorded to disk?
From memory since I'm not at the studio...

Consider recording to USB stick as non-destructive. It's a multi-channel file and the FX are always post and no overdubs. You have to think of it like a old school multi-track actually which is its design intention.

TotalMix is hands down one of the best sound card mixer interfaces I have ever used and the routing is phenomenal IMHO. TotalMix is what handles all my Reaper > Hardware > Reaper routing such as piping tracks or mixes through outboard gear and so on. All the hardware outs have loop back as well allowing you to route any output back into reaper directly.

For some reason I actually like the built in reverb ymmv.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:52 PM   #6
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Sorry, I keep seeing things I missed.

Quote:
One more serious consideration is the noise performance of the RME mic pre's. They claim some pretty impressive specs and I do a lot of low level stereo atmospheric and ambiance recording with a pair of Rode NT2a mics which have extremely low self noise levels. Has anyone done any similar recording through the inbuilt pre's on the Fireface UFX? If so, how quiet are they in real world use?
IIRC they are the quieter pre's I have next to my UA Audio 710s and my ADL600 both of which are tube and expected to be a little noisier. I don't remember off hand having any noise issues but they are preamps, crank it and there will be some hiss naturally. However, I don't have enough preamps lying around to give a proper comparison.

Compared to the other two pres I mentioned above the FF are comparable except the FF pres are obviously cleaner, more transparent and direct. IE: I use those for my transparent pres and the ADL/UA as my color pres. To drive that point home part of the reason for the ADL/UA pres is because the FF are very transparent.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:02 PM   #7
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Karbo, thanks heaps for your input here. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm after. At this point, I am really leaning towards the UFX for many reasons.

I see Black Lion Audio also do a UFX mod and claim it is one of their most effective mods. There was a post on the GS forum about this mod and someone had access to a modded and unmodded UFX and did a recording to both using a split so both units got identical signals. I can't remember the URL off the top of my head but I did download the files and have a listen.
This is the first time I've heard the results of a BLA mod and I can say that the modded UFX had significantly better transient response and extended bandwidth.

I am seriously considering getting a UFX and getting it modded by BLA. The pre's sounded great even stock but the BLA mods really make this something seriously nice from what I heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I don't because I love it, especially the recording directly to a flash drive. Not sure if I saw where you listed that the UFX is both USB and Firewire.

That being said, I've had mine a little less than a year so hit me up with any questions you may have and I'll chime in.
Cheers
The USB and Firewire thing is a bonus because I have two systems with good Firewire i/o and my Sony which only has USB3.
Have you tried the UFX on a USB3 port? Some of my USB2 only devices crash the OS when plugged into USB3 ports (MOTU MIDI Timepiece AV being one) but it works fine running through a USB2 hub into the USB3 port. I am hoping the UFX will work directly on a USB3 port without the hub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
From memory since I'm not at the studio...

Consider recording to USB stick as non-destructive. It's a multi-channel file and the FX are always post and no overdubs. You have to think of it like a old school multi-track actually which is its design intention.

TotalMix is hands down one of the best sound card mixer interfaces I have ever used and the routing is phenomenal IMHO. TotalMix is what handles all my Reaper > Hardware > Reaper routing such as piping tracks or mixes through outboard gear and so on. All the hardware outs have loop back as well allowing you to route any output back into reaper directly.

For some reason I actually like the built in reverb ymmv.
So the files recorded to USB are raw (without the FX)? I gather that's what you mean by non destructive.
I really like the idea of using TotalMix for hardware inserts too. This whole system sounds like it is quite flexible. In fact, that is one of the things that is making me lean strongly towards the UFX (it is the cheapest of the three options I listed but still has the full TotalMix FX).

Not that it really matters but is it possible to record the FX to additional channels on the USB drive in real time?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpanderson80 View Post
Dave,
If you got rid of all those keyboards and synths, you wouldn't need so many channels! *BIG GRIN*

If I followed along correctly, good job thinking through the options. Figuring this stuff out can be so complicated sometimes.

- Jeremy
lol about the synths!!
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Old 01-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post

So the files recorded to USB are raw (without the FX)? I gather that's what you mean by non destructive.
Correct. Think of the USB drive as 2 inch tape minus the ability to bounce. You could probably do some loopback or insert routing and get the results post FX into tracks in Reaper but as a standalone unit the FX aren't in the file.

Quote:

Not that it really matters but is it possible to record the FX to additional channels on the USB drive in real time?
I could be wrong but I don't think so and overdubs are not possible either. It's basically a live/remote tracking rig when no computer is available or simplicity is needed. I suppose you might be able use the loopback and record over to DigiCheck which has a similar recorder but records to the host machine as a WAV file.

DigiCheck is great analyzer app that comes with the package that has multichannel recorder, goniometer, correlation meter, ITU 1770/EBU R 128, frequency analyzer, bit meter and a few other cool tools that can access all of the devices channels:



Back to TotalMix, most of the stuff people template or hack in Reaper, I do in TotalMix and it's nice to keep control room stuff (headphone mixes, cues, talkback, player FX and so on) in TotalMix. You can save presets and layouts so its great and getting the perfect headphone mix doesn't touch anything in Reaper. TM is basically your control room and routing. It also has a matrix view nearly identical to Reaper's routing matrix. I believe it is also MIDI and OSC controllable.



And when I take it somewhere to record , I just care a couple racks as shown below and a laptop:

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Old 01-11-2014, 11:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Correct. Think of the USB drive as 2 inch tape minus the ability to bounce. You could probably do some loopback or insert routing and get the results post FX into tracks in Reaper but as a standalone unit the FX aren't in the file.
Im pretty sure if you arm/record the bottom row of totalmix to DURec (ie: the outputs) that records signal with Delay/Verb as you have the FX return on those channels and if you had EQ/Comps on inputs it would record those. It may even record the EQ/Comp on outputs also when you select EQ+D for record in the options/settings panel.. I know when you have EQ+D seleted digicheck records your signal with EQ and Dynamics off each channel so its possible DURec does also..

I also think you could record the FX only without any dry signal, you would just choose an output channel to record and dont route any inputs to it (row 1/2) but have the FX return turned up on that outputs and i think that may just record FX signal and nothing else. Its fairly flexible.

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Old 01-12-2014, 02:11 AM   #10
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Im pretty sure if you arm/record the bottom row of totalmix to DURec (ie: the outputs) that records signal with Delay/Verb as you have the FX return on those channels and if you had EQ/Comps on inputs it would record those. It may even record the EQ/Comp on outputs also when you select EQ+D for record in the options/settings panel.. I know when you have EQ+D seleted digicheck records your signal with EQ and Dynamics off each channel so its possible DURec does also..

I also think you could record the FX only without any dry signal, you would just choose an output channel to record and dont route any inputs to it (row 1/2) but have the FX return turned up on that outputs and i think that may just record FX signal and nothing else. Its fairly flexible.
That sounds plausible, I'll have to try it out. I forgot the output channels have a record button too.

Quote:
I know when you have EQ+D seleted digicheck records your signal with EQ and Dynamics off each channel so its possible DURec does also..
It will because it is receiving a post FX signal from TotalMix.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:19 AM   #11
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Thanks heaps for the info guys.

Karbo, those TM screenshots look very enticing, along with your description. That alone looks like a compelling reason to go for the UFX. I think my decision has been made!!
I'll probably get the BLA mods done too. They make a significant difference to transient response and bandwidth from what I've listened to.

That's a rather cool looking rack you've got there too. How do you find the Art compressor? I have an Art 406 headphone distribution amp in my studio and it has been great.
Oh, and I can't ignore that UA mic pre either. Very nice.
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Thanks heaps for the info guys.

Karbo, those TM screenshots look very enticing, along with your description. That alone looks like a compelling reason to go for the UFX. I think my decision has been made!!
I'll probably get the BLA mods done too. They make a significant difference to transient response and bandwidth from what I've listened to.

That's a rather cool looking rack you've got there too. How do you find the Art compressor? I have an Art 406 headphone distribution amp in my studio and it has been great.
Oh, and I can't ignore that UA mic pre either. Very nice.
Thanks Dave and yes, I'd be pretty sad if I had to give up TM. I've had it since my FF800 that I got back in 2008. Let me know about the BLA mods but couldn't you do similar yourself? You appear more than qualified.

The ART I actually like a lot but have only had it a short while. I used it on some vocals and thought it did great at getting some of "that" sound; I think I used it on my niece (tune in collab thread). It's not extremely fast being an opto which is why I got it. I have an FMR RNC for fast and I'm actually especially fond of the 1176 style comps on the UA.

The UA IMHO is simply outstanding on a lot of sources. It is my go to bass DI and I've used it on guitars and vox. The only place I don't like it is on drums, it can't retain the fast transient smack if you want it but if you want "puffy" drums it'll do a fine job. It has 2 ADAT + WC so it interfaces to the UFX allowing me to add 8 channels of analog IO without using up any of the precious IO on the FF. You may have noticed that much of my other rack pieces are in lieu of the FF being transparent.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:08 PM   #13
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Hi Dave! I got a UFX a couple of months ago after my presonus firestudio died and I definitely won't sell it either, couldn't be happier, it's a brilliant device.

I am a long way from fully exploring it's possibilities, and so far I've just expanded it with a focusrite ISA 2, which I'm even more happy with than the RME, having 4 different input impedences and 80 dB of gain is just insane.

I'm really replying because I saw you have been considering the MADIFace, and I was also looking at that i/o. I didn't realise that you could hook it up to an SSL and still be under 3 grand. I think the future of such a setup with a laptop 'brain' is very good, as long as manufacturers support 32 mm cardbus.

I guess it may come down to how much you want the direct recording that the UFX gives you. Just one thing I would say though, I wouln't really want to record the TotalMix FX (destructive). The EQ and Dynamics are not as good as ReaPlugs + JS.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:39 AM   #14
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I agree with all the people who are giving good credits to the RME Fireface UFX and the smaller UCX.

It's worth mentioning that they are both now compatible with devices requiring class compliant drivers. This means that you can take them out with an ipad. There's a Totalmix app available on the apple store. I think it's £5.00

I bought mine because I wanted to address the need for sonically invisible control of my monitor setup. With Totalmix as a monitor controller I'm not adding anything at all to my monitoring chain. I get really good metering through Digicheck and I have a calibrated multi-monitor setup which I can control even without seeing Totalmix. The only extra cost was the advance remote control.
Other advantages:
You can power the UCX (not the UFX) from 9-18vdc. That means it will work from all sorts of battery packs for field use, so it's good for use with video.
Both the UFX and the UCX have +19DbFS inputs and outputs. That means +4Db level with bags of headroom. Many devices only go to +4dbFS.
With DUREC you can make direct recordings from the UFX onto a portable USB stick (check the speed of the stick with a utility like HDtune). I use and SSD in a usb enclosure.
Naturally the interface works as normal during this process, so you can record to your DAW, or ipad at the same time. Instant backup!

Oh! almost forgot. Digicheck is constantly upgraded, as are the RME drivers and hardware. The latest version of Digicheck includes an EBU R128 compliant loudness meter.
Brilliant!
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:13 PM   #15
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This is all really good info guys. I think you've all pretty much convinced me to go for the UFX option. I really do like the direct to USB recording feature too and would be treating it simply as a recorder without recording FX. I typically prefer not to commit FX to a recording destructively anyway. I'd rather do all that in the mix later. More options to work with that way.


Karbo, I'd be keen to do the BLA style mods myself but there's a few things that would hold me back. One is the warranty issue, two is the need to work with surface mount stuff and I'm not really set up for significant amounts of SMD desoldering and, certainly not the least, three is the fact that the BLA guys have been specializing in this for ages and have worked out exactly what works best. I dare say they'd not easily give up their secrets readily!!

Here's the BLA UFX mod page... http://blacklionaudio.com/product/rme-fireface-ufx-2/
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:48 AM   #16
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Well, thanks to everyone for the great feedback on the Fireface UFX, I finally took the plunge and purchased one and couldn't be happier with it. Now I know first hand why you were all praising it so highly. DEFINITELY money well spent.

I've had it now for a couple of days and it works perfectly with my Sony Viao even at the lowest latencies and connected to the USB3 port.
I did a comparison of the mic pre's against some of the other gear I have here and they came out on top each time. The comparisons I have done so far are with one of my Mackie Onyx's and with my MBox 2 Pro (just for the sake of it).

I was fully expecting it to be in a different league alltogether compared to the MBox 2 Pro and it is indeed. The MBox sounds brittle and harsh in comparison.

The Mackie was somewhat closer and the Onyx pre's have received good reviews many times but the RME is still on another level sound wise. They are both similar in noise performance (the Onyx pre's are very quiet), but the RME sounds much smoother in the top end and has better phase coherence and flatter response.

My go-to mic for vocals is usually my AKG C414eb (CK12 capsule) but my Rode NT2a's will get a more frequent look in for vocals now that I have the RME. They sound so much better through the RME pre's than they do through any of my other pre's. Any top end brittleness I was experiencing before has now gone.

So, in summary, I am a very happy UFX owner thanks to the recommendations from you all here.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:54 AM   #17
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Oh, one more thing, the Durec function is awesome! I tried it with my ancient Toshiba USB stick which I have literally had now for years and was expecting it to be too slow for anthing serious.

However, after I tried an extended recording of four tracks and got no errors, I decided to really push it and recorded 14 tracks for fifteen minutes and it didn't miss a beat.
I would expect that and much more from a new USB stick but the Toshiba one is probably at least six years old now and it worked perfectly.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:58 AM   #18
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Umm... one more thing....

TotalMix FX and Digicheck are awesome! Great stuff!! Love the Digicheck Totalyser. A VERY useful tool.
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Old 05-31-2014, 10:15 AM   #19
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Ok, ok.... I keep posting replies to my own topic here but I really am excited about this purchase!!
I'm sitting here right now in my studio listening to some of my favourite albums through the RME and I feel like I am listening to them for the first time! I'm hearing things I hadn't noticed before and the stereo image and clarity is superb. My monitors have just received a new lease on life, especially in the top end. I have to put this down to low jitter and great phase response of the RME A/D and D/A. Phase response really does make a big difference and the RME shines here. Literally!
My ribbon tweeters sound like ribbon tweeters... smooth and detailed.

I didn't expect to hear such a drastic difference in sound quality over every other audio interface and option I have in my studio (and I have plenty of options here). This is going to make mixing future projects so much easier and more enjoyable.

Two thumbs up to RME. I now see (or should that be 'hear') what all the hype is about.
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Old 05-31-2014, 04:19 PM   #20
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Hi Dave, I'm glad to hear that Fireface UFX is working out so well for you. I'm just as enthusiastic about mine, although after less than a years use it has had to go back to innovative music in Melbourne for a service. One of the preamps suddenly developed quite a bit of noise.

I have been using all kind of budget gear for years like behringer, M-audo and presonus and so I tend to be quite careful what I'm doing and don't abuse my gear, so it was a bit of a shock. However getting the Return Authorisation was easy, just one email to the service department with a screen shot of Total Mix.

I'm really looking forward to getting it back as I've just bought a focusrite OctoPre MK II to expand my mic ins.

I agree about the quality of the conversion in the Fireface, I think that is where the biggest improvement in sound is coming from over stuff like edirol and presonus, where the preamps are quite OK.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:26 PM   #21
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UFX is a well made product but there are some drawbacks which arent immediately obvious.

1. the loopback is not sample accurate with the input channels.. If you try and multitrack loopback with an input at the same time the recordings are offset.

2. DURec has playback problems with files it hasnt created. It produces large clicks when a file stops due to non zero crossing points. Its not a big deal for most people but could be a problem if you were intending to use it for playback at loud volume like a PA mixer.

3. DURec looks appealing for live recording but it cannot handle high gain well, if you want to take a signal from direct outputs off a live console and you are at the mercy of live sound operator gain structure the signal will clip easily and the way it clips is harsh digital clipping which is unusable. The same gain through other units like HD24 has no problems.

4. it is reported that certain 1/4 inch cables get stuck in the front inputs and the only way to remove them is by taking the unit apart.. thankfully this isnt anything ive seen but im concious of it everytime i plug something in as it would be a major pain to deal with.. The differences in plugs are show from the image download here..

http://**************/photo/my-images...tipshapes.jpg/

RME blame cable manufacturers because they dont all conform to Neutrik standard, thats a cop out in my opinion. When you make a product that is to be widely used you need to ensure wide compatibility also..


There are some other smaller issues which could be considered personal taste though and others may not have as much problem with.. i am generally happy with UFX but i thought id mention this stuff as IMO its valuable to hear potential pitfalls also.

Last edited by EcBaPr; 05-31-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 06-01-2014, 01:48 AM   #22
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For some odd reason, the current crop of "affordable but pretty" jack sockets being used by a lot of manufacturers ARE shit.

Wish they would just break down and either use something cheap and ugly that works, or just bump the price of the unit byt a couple of bucks to allow tyhe use of better pretty jacks.
Focusrite, Se, etc., you KNOW who you are.




Glad you are liking the RME, Dave - I am now 100% rme and could not be happier.
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:48 AM   #23
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Hamish,
That's a bummer about your UFX. Hopefully they get it back to you quickly. If I ever have issues with mine, I'll be dealing with Innovative Music too, them being the main distributors for RME in Australia. I purchased mine from a good friend, Serge, in Melbourne who owns Audio Oz (http://www.audiooz.com.au/). He gave me a really good deal on it.

EcBaPr,
Good to know some of the potential traps. Thanks for the thumbs up.
I did have one TRS plug that wouldn't plug easily into the combi sockets on the front but I just used a different cable.
I haven't looked at the loopback function yet so I don't know if that will be an issue.

Ivansc,
I dare say at this stage I'd happily call myself an RME 'convert' with this being my first RME purchase.
A Micstasy would look great in a rack with my UFX but in Aus, that is another $4000!! Even the Octamic XTC is $3000. No doubt well worth it but more than I can afford at this stage.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:17 AM   #24
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Outstanding Dave, glad you like it!


Quote:
RME blame cable manufacturers because they dont all conform to Neutrik standard, thats a cop out in my opinion.
I agree. It's their product, don't sabotage it and call it someone else's fault. It was RME's choice to choose and use those connectors. This is the only issue I have with RME - self righteousness about their product. They had the same stance about an older driver version that stuck buffers Window's 8, "Windows 8 sucks, not our problem" and it turned you guessed it, to be an RME problem. They did fix it once it was proven though.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
This is the only issue I have with RME - self righteousness about their product. They had the same stance about an older driver version that stuck buffers Window's 8, "Windows 8 sucks, not our problem" and it turned you guessed it, to be an RME problem. They did fix it once it was proven though.
couldnt agree more.. their attitude leaves a lot to be desired to the point it has made me stop and consider if i want to stick with them for future purchases. in my book a perfectionist attitude is a quality, ive come to realise though RME are just arrogrant which is a totally different thing and very poor IMO.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:52 AM   #26
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UFX is a well made product but there are some drawbacks which arent immediately obvious.


4. it is reported that certain 1/4 inch cables get stuck in the front inputs and the only way to remove them is by taking the unit apart.. thankfully this isnt anything ive seen but im concious of it everytime i plug something in as it would be a major pain to deal with.. The differences in plugs are show from the image download here..

http://**************/photo/my-images...tipshapes.jpg/

RME blame cable manufacturers because they dont all conform to Neutrik standard, thats a cop out in my opinion. When you make a product that is to be widely used you need to ensure wide compatibility also..
This really is a problem with 'other manufacturers' connectors.
I'm very much aware of it.
I was technical support for a college which had a Mackie main desk in their project studio. They had bought a batch of cheap cables from CPC. I went in one day to find that the students had inserted half a dozen jacks into the line sockets which just wouldn't come out. It turned out that the tip connection of the jack was shaped like the ace of spades rather than being more rounded. The sprung tip connection in the sockets were completely locking the plugs in.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:27 AM   #27
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Still lots of excellent youtube vids on TM. Once you get used to it, I doubt you will want to use anything else.
I have my stuff permanently wired so I can deliver up to 9 separate headphone mixes from one ADAT I/O pre. Bloody wonderful.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:12 AM   #28
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Ferrofish converters seems like a nice option as well:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/ferrofish_...onverters.html

And, why not pair it with a RME Digiface USB?

Need preamp-solution: Audient ASP 880
Monitoring: A monitor controller

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Old 02-13-2018, 06:39 AM   #29
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Sigh. If the BLA mods really made a difference they'd be able to publish the audio fidelity figures to back it up. So far, crickets.

Or are we to believe that they improve sound quality in ways that can't be measured?

Improved bandwidth and transient response? Aren't they the same thing, and both measures of frequency response? Well, if they're improved, it will be easy to measure.

Can you improve transient response without improving frequency response? If frequency response is measurable, and it is, then any improvement in transient response will be measurable.

Yeah, I know. I'm always the party pooper.

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Old 02-18-2018, 02:13 PM   #30
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Sigh. If the BLA mods really made a difference they'd be able to publish the audio fidelity figures to back it up. So far, crickets.

Or are we to believe that they improve sound quality in ways that can't be measured?

Improved bandwidth and transient response? Aren't they the same thing, and both measures of frequency response? Well, if they're improved, it will be easy to measure.

Can you improve transient response without improving frequency response? If frequency response is measurable, and it is, then any improvement in transient response will be measurable.

Yeah, I know. I'm always the party pooper.
I actually started getting a little skeptical of whether the BLA mods on the UFX really are an improvement or just a psychological thing. I agree with you about publishing real world measurements too.
Needless to say (but I'm saying it anyway), I decided to pass on getting my UFX modded and I'm more than happy with its performance totally stock. I've had it now for coming up to four years and have now recorded, mixed and mastered many projects with it.
To be honest, I actually wouldn't want to mess with what RME have made. They have done a top notch job and I'd be concerned that any mods might actually be a downgrade.
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:23 AM   #31
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My feelings on BLA I just mentioned this to a buddy 2 days ago.
I'd say of course you can improve anything.. better chips come out better caps it will be better.. but it's ear fucking better.. like you really have to listen. They aren't redesigning the layout or build that would make a great change..
But things change..so you buy a new converter that sounds great right now..Say 5yrs from now you happen to get BLA to mod it. well of course by then they use new chips and newer caps it will sound better..It's up to your wallet if that's worth what they charge..

I just moved from an RME PCI/Digiface I've had since 2002 and since about 2008 it was tied to an SSL Alpha Link Madi AX. sound great to me.. the SSL just died noting on AD or DA.. I could have gone cheaper route and just bought new converter to go to Digiface.. But I'm doing few projects now that are all 96K and with the Adat I/O I couldn't do as many channels at 96K so I got an Apollo 16mkII thunderbolt on PC..

Even though I don't care to use BLA for anything (like mod my Dangerous Dbox which they offer) but I have thought about seeing if they were to mode my SSL now..would that be at the same time what also fixes it and brings it back to life.. Because SSL wanted me to send them $1249 for a refurbished replacement.. I'd rather send BLA $900 to mod it (if that also fixes it)..
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:32 AM   #32
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Once we are up to decent quality metal film caps etc. for signal path, it's a pure waste of time to try to exceed that - and you'll find most audio designs have that already. For opamps, good enough for all our ears have been produced for decades and if it can't do the job as good as any other, it's broken which is more often the circuit designed around it being a poor design.

Sure we can split hairs over slew rates of some of the old classics like LM741 etc but since the designer knows that, it should never end up in a circuit that is outside it's operating range to begin with. Summary, I don't buy the BL opamp upgrade idea, there is not something audible there to hear (I have all those opamps and considered the mod myself until I stepped back and realized how silly it is). Some of the most expensive consoles in the world use the standard fare opamps like the NE5532 (BLA mod uses OPA2134s IIRC).
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Old 02-20-2018, 11:38 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Once we are up to decent quality metal film caps etc. for signal path, it's a pure waste of time to try to exceed that - and you'll find most audio designs have that already. For opamps, good enough for all our ears have been produced for decades and if it can't do the job as good as any other, it's broken which is more often the circuit designed around it being a poor design.

Sure we can split hairs over slew rates of some of the old classics like LM741 etc but since the designer knows that, it should never end up in a circuit that is outside it's operating range to begin with. Summary, I don't buy the BL opamp upgrade idea, there is not something audible there to hear (I have all those opamps and considered the mod myself until I stepped back and realized how silly it is). Some of the most expensive consoles in the world use the standard fare opamps like the NE5532 (BLA mod uses OPA2134s IIRC).
My thoughts exactly Karbo.

I'm qualified in electronics with 35 years experience in design, construction, repair and modification. My specialty is analog audio and synthesizers. All the hype around the various op-amp chips is mostly just hype. Sure there are differences in specs and in critical designs, these can make a difference. However, in the vast majority of low to moderate gain audio designs, replacing a 5532 with an OPA isn't going to change anything audible.

Even the now ancient 741 and 1458 op-amps would probably be almost indestinguishable from a 4558 or 5532 in a unity gain, line out buffer stage.

The differences do increase when op-amps are used for high gain applications such as mic preamps. However, even there, something like an RME Fireface isn't going to benefit much, if at all with a simple op-amp swap. The engineers at RME know what they are doing and their designs are first class.

My Sound Devices 744T has some of the highest spec transparent mic preamps around and that is one of its many selling points. I did a number of listening and measurement tests comparing those preamps to the ones in my Fireface UFX and there is really very little difference despite the fact that they are designed by two completely different companies. How much less of a difference would there be swapping two different decent op-amps in either design? I dare say nothing we would be able to hear and probably nothing test equipment would be able to measure.

I remember listening to blind A/B test a while back on the mods BLA did on a particular interface. There was a subtle difference between the stock and the modded units but the big question is, which was really better? I remember a snare drum recorded through the BLA unit sounded a little thicker and initially more pleasing but was that due to added harmonic content (ie harmonic distortion)?
That's what saturation is all about and it often sounds good but it isn't more accurate.

I'd rather my transparent preamps remain transparent. If I want colour, I use a coloured preamp or add that colour later.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:15 PM   #34
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I remember listening to blind A/B test a while back on the mods BLA did on a particular interface. There was a subtle difference between the stock and the modded units but the big question is, which was really better?
One thing that really opened my eyes is the idea that swapping the opamp also changes the circuit itself. Obviously, there are lots of opamps you can freely switch but it still becomes a different circuit to an extent. Meaning all that R&D that went into that circuit using the original opamp is now potentially different under varying performance critera. The short version of this is that variances in the parts/values that surround the opamp could easily make a bigger difference in sound by pure chance (due to the swap) than some actual increase in fidelity aka, can we identify different and also truly qualify it as "better" and if so in what objective manner and if so, is there any chance of that being the actual opamp doing a 'better' job.

At least that's how my feeble brain sees it.

Note: One reason that I used 741 as an example is it's the preferred chip in the original RAT pedals but only because it has a slow slew rate and that makes a difference because we are already forcing the opamp into total sonic failure anyway - and we're exploiting a failure to make the failure (distortion) sound cool. Which of course is pretty much irrelevant to the hi-fi opamp discussion.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:52 AM   #35
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741s......"It used to be all fields round here when I were a lad."

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Old 02-21-2018, 11:46 PM   #36
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Karbo, once again, we are in agreement.

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741s......"It used to be all fields round here when I were a lad."

LOL!
One of my most recent repairs was the replacement of a dual 741 (AKA 1458) in my Roland System 700 analog step sequencer. I replaced it with a spare 4558 I had in one of my parts drawers. It was just being used as a comparitor in this situation so the replacement wasn't at all critical.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:31 PM   #37
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Now just stop it! We are both bordering on nerd-ism & if we carry on, Karbo will only make it worse!

(whisper) Finally got round to cracking my Warfedale powered monitor that has been exhibiting intermittent "sounds like a dry joint" stuff for several years today. Turned out to be molex put in loose and then glued that way at the factory! *sigh*
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:13 AM   #38
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Now just stop it! We are both bordering on nerd-ism & if we carry on, Karbo will only make it worse!

(whisper) Finally got round to cracking my Warfedale powered monitor that has been exhibiting intermittent "sounds like a dry joint" stuff for several years today. Turned out to be molex put in loose and then glued that way at the factory! *sigh*
(whispers back)... That's a LONG TIME to endure an intermittent fault in your monitoring!!
Then again, I've been enduring some fairly significant faults with one of my Hammond organs. The bass pedals don't work when it hasn't warmed up and the lower manual has gone intermittent. It is most likely dried out electrolytics but I haven't bothered to recap it yet despite building an ESR meter specifically for this job!
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