Old 07-05-2019, 08:24 AM   #1
1111Eugene
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Default PLEASE FIX GUI LAG

PLEASE FIX GUI LAG
it is impossible to do anything with as it is now, the more tracks, the more lag.... more automation - more lag, more fonts - more lag, more markers - more lag, more anything - more lag. haven't started a mix the GUI is already lagging big time.... how convinient and useful and great... so inspiring... waiting several seconds for every single click no matter what it is about, is very effective thing for a creative work.. right...
How could you do this? It ruins literally everything


I predict
there will be at least several comments that will say oohohohohoh fix you pccccc, my reaper is billion fps 0ms latency and so on. there's no need to show your uncontrolled ego ok? fix your personal problems with yourselves, not with reaper everybody's GUI lag.

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Old 07-05-2019, 08:38 AM   #2
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Hello,
not sure you'll get more helpful answers by showing a lack of respect, but why not...

Could you maybe explain how many tracks you have, and maybe show a screenshot of your mixer so we can have a rough idea of how many tracks you have?

I can't complain on my side, but I use a very very limited number of tracks, I mean, I very rarely have more than 30 tracks, and I have only 5 or 6 fxs on each track.

But some people here on the forum do orchestral work and they deal with hundreds of tracks, so their answers will be probably way more useful than mine!

EDIT: oooh, I understand better now that I have seen your previous posts... I wish I could help you, but other than trying to open the project with no plugins loaded, I have no real idea, sorry
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:44 AM   #3
1111Eugene
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please do the next thing
add a
for example a hundred tracks
add a volume envelope automation for each one
and some other if you wish
and toggle for example a mixer window visible on\off
and count how much time does it take to appear
and then hide all the envelopes
and count again
and there will be already a noticeable difference
also you can add a whatever plugins, just for font to be in a mixer track slots
it will also increase lagging
grid on\off
toolbars
and whatever there is you see in a project
will increase lagging, no matter what it is,
no matter which theme you use
no matter if there's a 0% cpu or whatever load
and so on
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:31 AM   #4
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128 tracks here with volume and pan envelopes visible on each, no discernible lag over here...

It does happen but at much larger track counts.
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Old 07-05-2019, 12:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
my reaper is billion fps 0ms latency and so on. there's no need to show your uncontrolled ego ok? fix your personal problems with yourselves, not with reaper everybody's GUI lag.
1) Good/bad Audio latency has nothing to do at all with godd/bad GUI lagging.

2) not everybody needs many tracks and works a lot with their GIU.
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 07-05-2019 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 07-05-2019, 01:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
please do the next thing
add a
for example a hundred tracks
add a volume envelope automation for each one
and some other if you wish
and toggle for example a mixer window visible on\off
and count how much time does it take to appear
Confirmed. The mixer disappears instantly but it takes approximately 3 seconds to appear, under these circumstances.

I'm using Reaper for Linux. If anyone wants more details, some are in my signature and I can provide more (and do some testing on dev versions for this sort of thing).
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Confirmed. The mixer disappears instantly but it takes approximately 3 seconds to appear, under these circumstances.

I'm using Reaper for Linux. If anyone wants more details, some are in my signature and I can provide more (and do some testing on dev versions for this sort of thing).
Windows 10 with 128 tracks and volume envelopes all added to each track. No laggy GUI or issues but when you close mixer it takes 10 seconds to come back.

Empty tracks.

Top o' the line PC.
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:07 PM   #8
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110 tracks writing automation, there is definitely lag on the first automation, then it seems to catch up. Here is an image showing the dead spot(s), and the recovery. Seems to lag after the initial write, and also stopping transport. It should be "squiggly" throughout the automation.



After that, all is smooth....until I switch screensets to my mixer layout. Takes about 5 seconds or so before it all functions again. About the amount of lag you see above.

I can't say I have ever a reason to want to automate 100+ tracks at once, but there is definitely something to confirm here.

To be fair, other DAWs would just crash attempting something like this. Cakewalk/Sonar comes to mind immediately. I've broken Cubase with a little less effort than this as well.

PC specs below.
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Old 07-05-2019, 04:11 PM   #9
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Confirmed over here. Horrendous lag toggling the mixer. I generally don't notice this because a) only some of my tracks have automation and b) I don't toggle the mixer all that much. Still, it's brutal, and if both of those things were part of my workflow I'd be a little agitated too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kcDB9RGmwY


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Old 07-05-2019, 04:40 PM   #10
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don't normally have so many but testing just cuz of what you said

130 tracks, each with a synth on it and one automation lane on each one
using screen sets to switch between floating mixer on second monitor and all one one monitor with the mixer as track inspector to left of tcp...

takes about 5 seconds to see the floating mixer come up but less than one second to switch back to the tcp with mcp as inspector view..

further test info:

I have and prefer the HeDa VIP Mixer and with that you can have a much more controllable mixer... cost ya 5 bucks donation but you get other things as well

and that opens instantly

you might wanna give that a try
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:14 PM   #11
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So the problem is the Default Theme ?

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Old 07-05-2019, 11:46 PM   #12
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No, the issue is the same no matter how beautiful or simple the theme is. even the white reaper 3 or smth theme has same behaviour, but maybe 20% faster.
the isue is reaper doesn't use a graphic card for hardware acceleration ( if I'm not mistaken it's EvilDragon's thought, so thank him for the explanation, it makes perfect sense). And it is FOR EVERYBODY, no matter what pc you have or a planet you're from.
So I went and add a hundred tracks in PT. add an automation for each, toggled mixer on\off, and it took no time\no lag. for example. even the acorn soft which is deadly buggy, doesn't lag. no other daw lags like reaper does. who would have thought. unbelievable
and notice it's not just for the mixer window, it is for anything, any button, any knob, anything, that change visual picture. it seems like it reloads the whole gui every single time. or so. but even that would've been faster

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Old 07-06-2019, 12:35 AM   #13
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Don't know if we are talking about the same issue but i also just wanted to make a thread about the GUI lagging before I saw this one now.

In my case it is very frustrating when I scroll, zoom or drag items it feels so "stepped" and delayed and also the mouse inertia (I use Apple's Magic Mouse) doesn't "flow out" but keeps doing little jumps until stopping. This issue (which already happens in empty projects) just makes Reaper feel chunky and makes it difficult to move around my project. Even if Reaper feature-wise beats most DAWs, this keeps holding me off using it professionally as it just feels somehow...tiring?

Here a video comparing zoom/scroll/drag from Reaper (left) with Logic (right):

https://vimeo.com/344328919

Studio One also doesn't have this issue, very smooth (although a bit too fast when zooming). Cubase feels a bit stepped but responds fast enough to mask it.

What might cause this issue in Reaper? Is there a way to make it more responsive? Or is this somehow a coding fault? Are there any plans to fix this in Reaper 6?

Hope this fits the thread, otherwise please tell me and I'll make a new one.
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Old 07-06-2019, 02:50 AM   #14
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IMHO it does fit, and AFAIK the things you show in fact perfectly demonstrate what the GPU can do for optical smoothness. (Some years ago, for some special graphics editor, I coded such GPU based item zoom and pan features.)

OTOH, I don't see a "problem" with this (IMHO rather slight) disadvantage of the Reaper GUI, IMHO Audio performance and flexibility are a much more essencial criterion for a DAW.
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
PLEASE FIX GUI LAG
I fully understand and support the OP in this matter. I have noticed this for some time, but I thought it had more to do with my HW setup than anything else. And it gets even worse when you add graphic-eating ego maniac plugins a la Waves. Luckily I hardly ever need more than 30-ish audio tracks (not counting busses and folders) in one and the same project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
128 tracks here with volume and pan envelopes visible on each, no discernible lag over here...

It does happen but at much larger track counts.
Well, that’s great then Now add CLA MixHub to each track with all modules engaged – on only half of that track count – and come back in a few hours and let us know what happens (because that’s how long it’ll take for REAPER and Waves to battle over the spots in RAM ... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
OTOH, I don't see a "problem" with this (IMHO rather slight) disadvantage of the Reaper GUI, IMHO Audio performance and flexibility are a much more essencial criterion for a DAW.
To use a similar version of your own motto: Not everyone doesn’t see a "problem" with this disadvantage of the REAPER GUI. I'm sure there are far more of those who think that both audio and GUI should work without lags and dropouts. To prefer reasonably better REAPER GUI is not necessarily the same as not giving an elephants behind about audio performance.
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Old 07-06-2019, 05:09 AM   #16
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you're saying like if improvements visual-wise will cancel everything else out.
isn't it obvious that it can only improve everything, including the holy audio perfomance. now, with gui lagging, the holy audio perfomance and general stability is just doesn't have any sense. if not for you, then whatever see you later, stop junking the thread as if you helping fixing the issue
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Old 07-06-2019, 05:12 AM   #17
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Unfortunately, I suspect that all us "lucky ones" that dont have noticeable GUI lag are on reasonably fast windows computers rather than Mac or Linux and of course dont have projects with track numbers in the high hundreds and tons of plugins enabled.
This is the sad part about being in a niche case for anyone with any proble & OP YES I understand why you started out in such a defensive manner. Hopefully something will get done about this (devs???) in short order.
As a matter of curiosity, what IS the spec of your computer and - for completeness` sake - your audio/midi interface?
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Old 07-06-2019, 05:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valle View Post
I Not everyone doesn’t see a "problem" with this disadvantage of the REAPER GUI.
Agreed !
In fact we are discussing two GUI latency problems right now:
1) The OP's: this definitively is a huge problem for those that get hit. But as most users don't need to work with some 100 and more tracks, there are only a few that are affected
2) "hopping" graphics with zooming and panning/moving items. Everyone sees this, but this does not seriously hamper the users' activities. It just is not "nice".

Now the devs need to decide about the priority of these issues (which maybe can be addressed both by setting the GPU working in a more advanced way, which supposedly is a huge programming task - especially regarding Windows / Mac / Linux versions of the software).
-Michael

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Old 07-06-2019, 05:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
In my case it is very frustrating when I scroll, zoom or drag items it feels so "stepped"...
Yes, I know it. Fruity Loops is also very smooth compared to Reaper. As I understand it, this is a feature of the Reaper graphics engine. And, if ever it is fixed, I will be very happy.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:02 AM   #20
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oohohohohoh fix you pccccc, my reaper is billion fps 0ms latency
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
please do the next thing
add a
for example a hundred tracks
add a volume envelope automation for each one
and some other if you wish
and toggle for example a mixer window visible on\off
and count how much time does it take to appear
and then hide all the envelopes
and count again
and there will be already a noticeable difference
also you can add a whatever plugins, just for font to be in a mixer track slots
it will also increase lagging
grid on\off
toolbars
and whatever there is you see in a project
will increase lagging, no matter what it is,
no matter which theme you use
no matter if there's a 0% cpu or whatever load
and so on
So I added 100 tracks with 100 instances of ReaComp and with automation linked to ratio.

Toggling REAPER's mixer takes almost 1.5 seconds. Is that a long time? This is using REAPER for Linux on a TEN year old Asus P7P55D/Intel i5 750 based machine.

So I doubled the track count to 200 tracks with 200 ReaComps plus automation on each and now it takes about 2 full seconds to toggle the mixer.

I DO have a pretty fast but also VERY OLD graphics card.

Ahh finally once I pushed it up to a WHOPPING THREE HUNDRED tracks, it now takes 5 seconds to toggle the mixer. I am not surprised at all. If I were using something else for my video display, say like the cheezy on-motherboard graphics, I would prolly see different results.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:36 AM   #22
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So, just to be sure I understand right.. this graphical lagging is a coding flaw in Reaper, in which the DAW does not make use of the computer's GPU in the best way possible, like other DAWs (Logic, Studio One, FL Studio..) do?

I can do nothing until the devs fix this? Or would this be fixed by using Windows instead of Mac, a more powerful computer or a better graphics card than the inbuilt one? Trying to understand where exactly the issue lies and how probable it is that the Devs can fix it (at least for Reaper 6) if there is no way to fix it myself.

@mschnell apart from the fact that it is "not nice" it also hinders workflow when you have many tracks and maybe want to zoom into one, then you wait and it jumps and you don't know where you are, you have to zoom out and try again (same with scrolling), or you want to move and item and have to move it back and forth until you reach the desired spot and let the mouse go. I agree that there are many things that could be worse (and which drove me after many DAW switching to Reaper) but in such a smooth DAW in all regards I can't understand why the GUI can't just be smooth aswell.

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Old 07-06-2019, 06:50 AM   #23
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You cannot fix it.
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13

It's time for Vulkan anyway:
https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/

And yes, it is tiring! Jerk, jerk, jerk...like swiping the screen on a cheap phone, you never know if what you are doing is working until "after".
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHughes View Post
And yes, it is tiring! Jerk, jerk, jerk...like swiping the screen on a cheap phone, you never know if what you are doing is working until "after".
You must be using Luddite computer and OS!
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:00 AM   #25
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I only use Luddite phones.

Until I get one of these: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
Which should make the Linux people swell with pride.
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:27 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
r would this be fixed by using Windows instead of Mac, a more powerful computer or a better graphics card than the inbuilt one?
I understand that the Reaper Graphics library (I understand it is part of the WDL library which has it's own subforum here) works faster on Windows than on Mac and would benefit from a higher CPU frequency (but not much from more cores). I suppose 32 bit would be bad, and of course with many tracks you also need enough RAM.
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:31 AM   #27
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The lag reported here is not caused from the lack of GPU offload. GPU will not help here. The slowness is purely CPU related from code that is not handling this scenario efficiently.

There is no technical reason toggling the mixer shouldn't be instantaneous. 100 tracks with automation lanes? That's nothing. So it's just an implementation quirk -- some expensive code path that's traversed for each rendering of a track in the MCP when automation lanes are visible.

(Scrolling/zooming could benefit from GPU to improve consistency of frame timing. But honestly I see a lot more work to be done on the algorithm side of things in Reaper's UI code before leveraging GPU is worth the hassle.)

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Old 07-06-2019, 07:51 AM   #28
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I put volume, pan, and width automation on a track, then cloned it to 100 tracks. Then 200, 300, 400, and 500. Here's what kind of delays I saw toggling the mixer with three automation lanes per track. Seems to be exponential.

Tracks Seconds
500 = 20
400 = 14
300 = 6
200 = 3
100 = 1.5
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:04 AM   #29
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well, if Reaper is so tweakable
it should be easier than a piece of cake to write some tool which will force it to use that ^&W%&*^*% graphic acceleration... right?


also, I'll say it again, it's not just about mixer window, it's about everything

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btw I tested it on win10
and it had at least the same lag time, if not bigger, it was exactly the same for perception, in short

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Old 07-06-2019, 09:08 AM   #30
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from my experience, running plugins in bridged mode (instead of native) might help with lagginess. Probably thanx to better cpu resources balancing.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:11 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
also, I'll say it again, it's not just about mixer window, it's about anything
But the causes will be varied. mschnell's comment earlier was spot on IMO. Some UI lag is a result of inefficient code (such as the pathological case you opened this thread with involving many tracks with automation lanes) and other "lag" is really just a frame rate design choice (like smooth scrolling versus line scrolling in browsers).

IMO we will have more success in influencing change by focusing on the first kind of lag because I feel like the developers will be more interested in fixing those types of things than an overhaul of the UI layer to include GPU acceleration.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:42 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
So I added 100 tracks with 100 instances of ReaComp and with automation linked to ratio.

Toggling REAPER's mixer takes almost 1.5 seconds. Is that a long time? This is using REAPER for Linux on a TEN year old Asus P7P55D/Intel i5 750 based machine.

So I doubled the track count to 200 tracks with 200 ReaComps plus automation on each and now it takes about 2 full seconds to toggle the mixer.

I DO have a pretty fast but also VERY OLD graphics card.

Ahh finally once I pushed it up to a WHOPPING THREE HUNDRED tracks, it now takes 5 seconds to toggle the mixer. I am not surprised at all. If I were using something else for my video display, say like the cheezy on-motherboard graphics, I would prolly see different results.
Alright, I'll bite.

Did exactly this including ReaComp and automating the ratio.
Duplicated the track to 128 instances.

Zero discernible lag toggling the mixing into view.
I can hit the keyboard shortcut (⌘= to toggle my "docked" mixer vs arrange window or the stock ⌘M to open the mixer) as fast as I can repeatedly and probably induce a seizure if I wanted to!

Tried in both read and write mode. Doubled the tracks to 256. Not seeing even the slightest bit of lag.

I think OSX is still the premium performing OS. I don't think it's long for this world anymore and I think Linux is coming in full force. Welcoming that too! But right here right now, there's no systemic GUI lag issue with OSX.

People aren't going on about nothing in these forum posts of course!
I'm not suggesting that. Just that it doesn't appear to be a systemic thing.

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Old 07-06-2019, 09:47 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Did exactly this including ReaComp and automating the ratio. Duplicated the track to 128 instances.
Was the automation lane visible or hidden?

Can you reproduce these steps?
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post
well, if Reaper is so tweakable
it should be easier than a piece of cake to write some tool which will force it to use that ^&W%&*^*% graphic acceleration... right?
No, there isn't anything the user can do about it. Graphics acceleration can't be forced to be on when it simply doesn't exist in the Reaper code base. There also are not enough API facilities for C or C++ extension plugins to completely replace the graphics rendering code, so that's not a feasible path either. Also, like has been suspected, some of the slowdowns in the GUI may not be directly related to the graphics rendering code anyway.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:14 AM   #35
serr
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Was the automation lane visible or hidden?

Can you reproduce these steps?
You mean the show envelopes in separate envelope lanes preference?

Found it. Ticked the box. Repeated.

Initially I could toggle just as fast and experience no perceivable lag.
However, when I clicked stop transport, the system lagged for a good 10 seconds. (Reaper reported "not responding" in Activity Monitor during this period.)

I wasn't able to reproduce this!
Tried what I thought were the same steps (Started over. Added all the tracks. Clicked stop transport. Tried to toggle back to the mixer view.)
Can't reproduce it... shit, then!

Maybe you guys are on to something and it's that awful 'show envelopes in separate envelope lanes' preference? Lots of good reasons to turn that off!
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:16 AM   #36
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Maybe you guys are on to something and it's that awful 'show envelopes in separate envelope lanes' preference? Lots of good reasons to turn that off!
Yeah, it seems to only occur when the envelope has its own lane.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:22 AM   #37
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Yeah, it seems to only occur when the envelope has its own lane.
If memory serves correct (from 10 years ago), this preference was enabled by default. (I remember, coming from Protools, it felt awkward and clumsy and I was relieved to discover how to turn it off and use normal overlaid envelopes.)

I think we may have just discovered a legitimate root cause of the mystery GUI lag!
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:26 AM   #38
tack
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I think we may have just discovered a legitimate root cause of the mystery GUI lag!
Well, this one specific narrow example anyway.

But this the best path to improving the situation: identifying each specific scenario, how to reproduce it, and hopefully Justin or schwa take notice.

Nonspecific requests like "reaper is slow make it go faster" is unlikely to get us any further.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:33 AM   #39
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Can you reproduce these steps?
I am able to reproduce this on my Windows 7 system. There probably is just some bug or inefficiency somewhere in the code, I can't see why having the automation envelopes visible should affect how quickly the mixer window opens.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:34 AM   #40
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I am able to reproduce this on my Windows 7 system. There probably is just some bug or inefficiency somewhere in the code, I can't see why having the automation envelopes visible should affect how quickly the mixer window opens.
Yeah, this one's probably an easy fix. As with most things getting fixed in Reaper, it now hinges on a) being noticed by Justin or schwa, and b) the phase of the moon.
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