Old 04-28-2019, 03:17 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
- toolbar button text size seems too large to me, there can be only 4-5 letters fin into the width of a square button. If that was 6 stable, its 50-20% increase. If it was 7 even better.

- font for fx name and send name in the mixer also seems too large and wide

- 3+ digit track numbers in TCP cannot fit, 2 digits look already cramped
Yeah, agreed. They were smaller earlier, I'll change them back.

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- windows which are somewhat themable (trackmanager, Add fx)would need to be dark to match the dark arrange
Matching isn't possible, I'm trying to settle for 'generally look harmonious'. Which, if you look at the media explorer, you'll see is still a work in progress

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- tiny children are not folder-offset as a normal expanded children are
Yeah, this is a weird by-product of some Reaper auto-behaviour. I'm hoping for a fix.

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- would it be possible to script element rearranging in track and mixer panels?
No, and for really boring technical reasons. The way WALTER's decision tree thing works simply doesn't allow for this to be scripted. It is still possible to rearrange elements using the 'user mess with this' numbers like in the V5 theme, that's sadly the easiest I can make it.

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- there is some blinking when adjusting tracks with the script, would reaper.PreventUIRefresh() help?
I don't know, would it? You tell me, that would be great. Total scripting noob here...

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I'd prefer mute and solo buttons always aligned, i think it's easier to read
Quite so, though this is an intentional compromise due to:
  1. Buttons always in the same area of the panel
  2. Buttons always visible
  3. Buttons don't waste space
...pick two.

Previously I've done 2 and 3. This time I've cheated and tried to sort-of do all three, by doing the alignment swapping thing. Not ideal, but it has its upsides.

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Yes, but not just that, it allows swiping them. What you showed in that screenshot breaks swiping...
Swiping only cares about where you start the swipe.
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Old 04-28-2019, 03:38 AM   #82
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It would be nice to have an option to hide solo and mute buttons in TCP/MCP, too.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:09 AM   #83
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When running Theme adjuster with another theme, it throws an error:

Code:
Default_6.0 theme adjuster.lua:468: bad argument #1 to 'ThemeLayout_GetParameter' (number expected, got nil)
It could just show an OK box, that the default theme is needed.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:15 AM   #84
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Is it possible to make it 125 % instead of 150 %. I have a 4k Ultrawide monitor..and 150% looks too big and regular one looks too small...Also the FX button in the TCP is not very visible when you have different colours. I mean its not easy to see weather the track has FX or not...See attached image...Track 3 has FX on it and Track 4 doesn't..Because of the track colours Its not clearly visible weather the track FX is on or Off...
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:20 AM   #85
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What I find a problem in most themes is that track selection is shown by colorizing the same are of the track panel that is colorized by user. It is a problem because it's not so easy to see among tracks with many colors and can be deceptive if tracks are colored in a particular way.

Extreme example: Which track is selected?



Answer: Selected are all tracks except 13.

I do it like this in the customized RadoV4 theme - yellow border. Similarly in the MCP.

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Old 04-28-2019, 04:21 AM   #86
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I'd say 75% would also be more useful than 50%.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:24 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Quite so, though this is an intentional compromise due to:
  1. Buttons always in the same area of the panel
  2. Buttons always visible
  3. Buttons don't waste space
...pick two.
I'd pick 1 a 2. These are the most used buttons.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:27 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Answer: Selected are all tracks except 13.
So that dot on selected tracks is very useful in Default 5.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:27 AM   #89
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I'd pick 1 a 2. These are the most used buttons.
Agreed on that.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:29 AM   #90
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Quote:
- there is some blinking when adjusting tracks with the script, would reaper.PreventUIRefresh() help?

I don't know, would it? You tell me, that would be great. Total scripting noob here...
Probably yes. You write
Code:
reaper.PreventUIRefresh(1)

--adjusting ui.......

reaper.PreventUIRefresh(-1)
You can also do nesting if you are not sure about a particular level where to place it:
Code:
reaper.PreventUIRefresh(1)
--code....
     reaper.PreventUIRefresh(1)
     --code...
     reaper.PreventUIRefresh(-1)
--code...
reaper.PreventUIRefresh(-1)
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:38 AM   #91
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The pan and width knobs in the TCP look bigger than the volume knob which should be the other way.



When I look at the whole TCP panel, everything looks a big comparing to the volume knob which does not stand out so much as probably intended by the chrome style.

Also pan text and width text are not aligned to their knobs. (a101)
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:44 AM   #92
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Transport - time selection section on the left and tempo on the right could go more to the middle, maybe even be center-aligned with the transport buttons so I don't have to turn my head when searching for them. (25inch screen, 2560px width, sitting at an arm distance)

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Old 04-28-2019, 04:49 AM   #93
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When I look at the whole TCP panel, everything looks a big comparing to the volume knob which does not stand out so much as probably intended by the chrome style.
I hope all the elements will be flat without any shadows. This is the first step to make elements sizes clear.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:55 AM   #94
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Order of buttons in TCP:

- in mixing, first I want to set static elements and then automate
- in the MCP, hardcoded are fx first, sends second
- I also much more fiddle with fxs than sends

So, the suggested order:
name - vol - (pan?) - fx - route - (pan?) - env
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:00 AM   #95
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But this "scripts can tweak themes" thing is actually NOT making theming easier, it's making it harder by adding another layer of complexity on top of an already complex system (WALTER)...
Good point. But it could be much simpler if the Reaper had its own Theme Editor so that it would generate the bulk of the code. We can kill two birds with one stone - developers will get peace of mind, leaving the current state of affairs, and users will get easy access to editing themes with ANY complexity of the code inside rtconfig.txt.

I really like what is happening now with the new theme. But looking at the complexity of the code, I hardly decide to customize it or create something based on it.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:04 AM   #96
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I hope all the elements will be flat ...
I can see that only record, play, vol knob, large fader and small fader are chrome-ish and to me it does actually feel similar to some modded compound theme from the stash which takes elements from several other unrealted themes creating an unpleasant look.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:08 AM   #97
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I can see that only record, play, vol knob, large fader and small fader are chrome-ish and to me it does actually feel similar to some modded compound theme from the stash which takes elements from several other unrealted themes creating an unpleasant look.
Yeah, the theme needs unification.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:09 AM   #98
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M S buttons look oversharped

route button looks overblurred

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Old 04-28-2019, 05:12 AM   #99
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Transport - for me, bpm and timesig are as much important as a timeposition.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:20 AM   #100
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Transport - pause button color does not match the functionality:

- overall green means "engaged"
- pressing of the pause button results in playback un-engaged

So the color shoud be different (maybe orange, to match fx bypass?).



Also, while the play button is in inactive state it is chromish and it becomes flat when activated, which looks strange.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:23 AM   #101
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Have you considered crating horizontal fader-style pan for the MCP?
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:31 AM   #102
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So the color shoud be different (maybe orange, to match fx bypass?).
For me yellow was always a pause-color.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:33 AM   #103
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Route colors:

- when the master send is off, the color could be red/orange to indicate a non-standard state
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:42 AM   #104
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Preview automation mode icon is different in track panel and in the global override panel. I'd use the simple icon. Also the color looks too differently.


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Old 04-28-2019, 05:43 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
route button looks overblurred
Default 4 has well-readable routing indicators.
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Old 04-28-2019, 05:56 AM   #106
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Envelope colors need some work:

- same things should have same colors, track and item level

- for volumes, the hue which is most readable over the gray bg. Here it does not seems to be green. Or is it just a brightness thing?

- volumes in order of most usage for me: "volume", "trim volume", "volume pre-fx"

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Old 04-28-2019, 05:58 AM   #107
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I do it like this in the customized RadoV4 theme - yellow border. Similarly in the MCP.

Agreed. Just like the new folder borders. Showing selections like this on both track and item levels would be more obvious in a default theme.
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:03 AM   #108
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We use to be able to draw edges on peaks to get an obvious line on selected items. That seems to be gone when using this theme. Is that meant to be like that?

Also, Same thing for Tint strength of selected items and tint track backgrounds of labels. All greyed out.


Lastly. When using track icons (images on the tracks). the black box that the mute and solo are in gets moved over and it looks a bit odd. Is there a way to make this the same colour as the track is? (if you like having the whole track coloured that is and not just the name).

Either this or an option to shift the sol mute black boxes to the far right side?

EDIT: ah.. just noticed the 3 different track panel defaults do move the mute/solo box around. I'll experiment

Also.. so happy to have a polarity button on the track panel now!
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:25 AM   #109
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Default Giant buttons when showing master track in arrange page

Maybe this is a good thing but thought I'd mention it in case it's a bug but the master track when viewed as a TCP track has giant buttons/stretched graphics on it.

It kind of works like that still but is a bit blurred
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:25 AM   #110
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This has all happened before, it will happen again, its all based on fundamental misunderstandings and while I maintain hope that we could find a solution to all of this, I'm not prepared to repeat the mistakes of the past by trying that which has previously failed.

We're not going to do design by committee on the forum
If you think that's because I'm an awful person and/or a terrible designer, so be it. I know that's not true, and I know we're going to have to agree to disagree, either me with you, or me with someone else. From my perspective its all the same thing.

One final Catch-22

If you reply endlessly to this post, you will be proving my point that discussions about design swamp testing threads.
I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to this. While I'm not Lokasenna (who has been one of the most helpful people on this entire forum) I think it's important to get across a main point here I think you are missing.

This forum is different than most on the internet. This isn't just some random mob of people on the internet with pitch forks that don't know what they are talking about. The first time I had a question on this forum, someone literally responded with code and said, "try this". I was blown away.

My post (and I think Lokasenna's as well) was not based out of anger. It was disappointment that a community of best and brightest was not consulted. Maybe you have tried this before. I haven't been around long enough. But the time I have been around, everyone here has been extremely helpful and there's no way I could use Reaper without their support. No one's work is so "precious" that it wouldn't be greatly improved by feedback from the people here. That includes Justin. That includes Schwa. And that includes yourself.

Even just in this thread people are providing very well reasoned feedback and ideas. No one is replying "endlessly". This isn't some giant post flaming each other. Nor is any other post I've ever seen on this forum. Thinking we're an armed mob is a mistake and I implore you to listen to the community and what we have to say. Like yourself we are very good at what we do and every one of us makes large contributions to Reaper. The end result will be much better than anything you or I or anyone else by themselves could come up with. As has always been the case here.
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:47 AM   #111
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Let us imagine we were to continue this discussion, or if I were to join in the discussions about the routing button. Is there some point at which unanimity would be reached, and a utopian design that everyone liked and thought perfectly easy to use, had zero compromises and didn't just work well but looked like it was going to work well?

No. We've gone round this many many times, for many years. If you want to pretend we didn't then you are being dishonest; its all google-able. It happened. We tried. It didn't work.

Good approach by White Tie imo. You cannot satisfy all. Design is a personal choice. Too many cooks spoil the dish. I prefer that one competent person does design as he feels it. Creative choices are a matter of personal taste.
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to this. While I'm not Lokasenna (who has been one of the most helpful people on this entire forum) I think it's important to get across a main point here I think you are missing.

This forum is different than most on the internet. This isn't just some random mob of people on the internet with pitch forks that don't know what they are talking about. The first time I had a question on this forum, someone literally responded with code and said, "try this". I was blown away.

My post (and I think Lokasenna's as well) was not based out of anger. It was disappointment that a community of best and brightest was not consulted. Maybe you have tried this before. I haven't been around long enough. But the time I have been around, everyone here has been extremely helpful and there's no way I could use Reaper without their support. No one's work is so "precious" that it wouldn't be greatly improved by feedback from the people here. That includes Justin. That includes Schwa. And that includes yourself.

Even just in this thread people are providing very well reasoned feedback and ideas. No one is replying "endlessly". This isn't some giant post flaming each other. Nor is any other post I've ever seen on this forum. Thinking we're an armed mob is a mistake and I implore you to listen to the community and what we have to say. Like yourself we are very good at what we do and every one of us makes large contributions to Reaper. The end result will be much better than anything you or I or anyone else by themselves could come up with. As has always been the case here.
What Klangfarben wrote! Very good post!
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:06 AM   #113
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How about theme independence ?

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220265
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:08 AM   #114
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You're trying to convince me to do something that I've done before, repeatedly. You're trying to convince me that the outcome wouldn't be what it was every time before. And I understand why.

Please, let no one mistake this as an insult or something personal. This isn't about people being bad, my impression is that its more about the internet being a terrible way to communicate when doing this work. I always involve the community, often in novel ways - please feel free to read back through the very long history of this, going back through the years. And yes, the pitchforks have even been out occasionally. It happened, I'm not holding a grudge, I'm just adapting and moving on.

The forum is a vital tool of the community. But it is not the total and only manifestation of the community, and no one on here speaks for the whole community. I don't like excluding people, but I leant heavily on the community while making the V5 theme without including the forum in that. It was by far the most productive default theming cycle, and the outcome was very good. I wish all of this wasn't true, but it is. You simply have to take my word for it, because I am not going to be convinced to repeat the painful mistakes of the past.

This time I need the forum's help. I'm trying bold things, and the script business is new, risky and outside my area of expertise. And we haven't even started talking about the ME yet, which I always delegate to others. But if the deal is 'I will not help you unless you listen to me on styling matters' then that's requiring me to do design by committee on the forum, which is the one thing I know, for sure, will be a disaster. If that were to be your decision, with the deepest of regret I would be forced to refuse your terms. And yes, it would be a real problem for me. I hope it doesn't come to that, but please understand that, based on difficult first-hand experience, I simply have no choice.
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:16 AM   #115
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So: the thing you are holding up as an example of a contrast cockup is a contrast-increased version of a thing that smashed its usability testing.
The contrast issue was one of the biggest complaints about the V5 theme when it came out, and one of the things I've gotten the most feedback about for having changed in Nitpicky.

I agree that you've got slightly more contrast here, but not by much. When you know that there are visually-impaired people using Reaper, and you know that low contrast was a big complaint last time, wouldn't it - perhaps - make sense to err on the side of being too contrasty? See also: Pretty much every other theme. Some of them are more "all contrast all the time", but few of them go with super low contrast.

I also agree that different levels of contrast make sense for highlighting the important parts of a design. I just think that you've gone way, way too low for the low end.

Quote:
We've done this before. Its entirely predictable. This is what happens next:

...

- I respond, some people don't like my answers, they call me arrogant or defensive.

...
We're not going to do design by committee on the forum
If you think that's because I'm an awful person and/or a terrible designer, so be it.
My apologies for seeing the word "alpha" in the thread title, along with you happily accepting input about other aspects of the design, and assuming that a major complaint from V5 that persists here might be worth bringing up.

On the whole I like the theme, as I continue to like V5, but let's just say I have a few... nitpicks. :P

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Old 04-28-2019, 07:16 AM   #116
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in the MCP. The "narrow form" option doesn't seem to allow you for it to not be narrow form when selected. Might be a bug it seems

Want to say though that I'm loving 99 percent of this theme so far when it comes to TCP and MCP. Especially the folder stuff as it makes it much easier to see what is foldered now!

I still have troubles (like in most reaper 5 themes) of being able to know at a glance in the arrange, what is selected, unselected and then a mix of both of these when the time selection is also involved.

That's why the thin line highlight around both selected track panels, selected items and maybe even selected mixer panels would be greatly appreciated a something for further down the line but it might be enough just to be able to edit the in the preferences are selves again instead of being greyed out.

Anyway, keep up the great work! Massive improvements all round!
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:43 AM   #117
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I guess eventually there'll be a "nitpicky" version of R6 theme that should've been the actual proper default, just how it ended up being with v5 theme.
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:47 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
You're trying to convince me to do something that I've done before, repeatedly. You're trying to convince me that the outcome wouldn't be what it was every time before. And I understand why.

Please, let no one mistake this as an insult or something personal. This isn't about people being bad, my impression is that its more about the internet being a terrible way to communicate when doing this work. I always involve the community, often in novel ways - please feel free to read back through the very long history of this, going back through the years. And yes, the pitchforks have even been out occasionally. It happened, I'm not holding a grudge, I'm just adapting and moving on.

The forum is a vital tool of the community. But it is not the total and only manifestation of the community, and no one on here speaks for the whole community. I don't like excluding people, but I leant heavily on the community while making the V5 theme without including the forum in that. It was by far the most productive default theming cycle, and the outcome was very good. I wish all of this wasn't true, but it is. You simply have to take my word for it, because I am not going to be convinced to repeat the painful mistakes of the past.

This time I need the forum's help. I'm trying bold things, and the script business is new, risky and outside my area of expertise. And we haven't even started talking about the ME yet, which I always delegate to others. But if the deal is 'I will not help you unless you listen to me on styling matters' then that's requiring me to do design by committee on the forum, which is the one thing I know, for sure, will be a disaster. If that were to be your decision, with the deepest of regret I would be forced to refuse your terms. And yes, it would be a real problem for me. I hope it doesn't come to that, but please understand that, based on difficult first-hand experience, I simply have no choice.
Dude, no one is attacking you yet so many of your responses act like you're being attacked. Relax and enjoy the ride. You're a damn talented artist and very well-respected here. Just interact with the community here in the best way you can and know that the very large majority of people here want nothing more than to make Reaper a better product.

At the end of the day, you're the designer and you will decide what the theme will be but in the meantime take all the input you can get and feel free to respond with "Thanks, I will take that under advisement". On to infinity.
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:50 AM   #119
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Yes, I agree. You know, including the community doesn't mean you have to take every idea and put it into the v6 theme. It's pretty much brainstorming and getting ideas from a different point of views.
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:56 AM   #120
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Yes, I agree. You know, including the community doesn't mean you have to take every idea and put it into the v6 theme. It's pretty much brainstorming and getting ideas from a different point of views.
And I'm not just saying this without experience. I coded for 30 years and worked with customers continually as a full stack developer. I ran everything from bringing up the servers to installing all the software to writing all the code to writing all the documentation to interacting with the customers and getting their requirements and then training the customers. The large majority of end users are very reasonable people and understand that sometimes decisions are made for certain reasons beyond their control. But I always included the customers from the very beginning.

I was designing a web app to allow you to buy insurance online and everyone had cell phones at the time and this was about 10 years ago even though I still had not had one until about 2 years ago. So I went out to the phone support team and ask them is anybody going to be buying Insurance over their cell phone and they all said hell yeah. Honestly I was in shock but I realized that these people try to do everything on their cell phone.

So I used the Twitter bootstrap framework that allowed me to design my site to appear different on different devices and the site ended up working great on cell phones, tablets, and desktop PCS. It was a big hit and I was the hero. When you write software you're either the asshole the hero and there's not a lot of room in between but I found that my customers were my best asset to helping me be the hero. I hope this helps
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