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Old 02-01-2017, 10:33 AM   #81
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Disclaimer: I have yet to try any OSX above 10.10.
Zero issues with sluggishness here though. I tried an install of Windows a few years ago now after reading such talk on the forum. Now THAT was choppy/sluggish!

I'll post back if I can get around to trying a 10.12 system and have something intelligent to say.

Curious as to what the root cause will turn out to be!
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:56 AM   #82
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FWIW I think REAPER will always be faster in Windows for screen updates, since macOS does a lot of composition in putting together the views which isn't incredibly fast. We could maybe work around this by using OpenGL views for some views on the mac side, I will experiment with this soon.

I went in to an Apple store to test on a 5k imac... it seemed to work fine with the default scaling -- not as fast as Windows, for sure, but very usable. I did notice an issue with the magic trackpad where sometimes the events would get backed up and keep replaying after you stop touching the pad. This was an issue that started in El Capitan, and we mostly worked around, but I suppose that it's still an issue.

For reference here is the system I was testing:
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:10 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
FWIW I think REAPER will always be faster in Windows for screen updates, since macOS does a lot of composition in putting together the views which isn't incredibly fast. We could maybe work around this by using OpenGL views for some views on the mac side, I will experiment with this soon.

I went in to an Apple store to test on a 5k imac... it seemed to work fine with the default scaling -- not as fast as Windows, for sure, but very usable. I did notice an issue with the magic trackpad where sometimes the events would get backed up and keep replaying after you stop touching the pad. This was an issue that started in El Capitan, and we mostly worked around, but I suppose that it's still an issue.

For reference here is the system I was testing:

Awesome thank you very much for looking into it and explaining why macOS is slower.., i really hope when you experiment with the OpenGL that it makes Reaper as smooth as windows or closer at least, otherwise i will have to go windows as i am really hating using Reaper on macOS right now.., its just far to laggy and glitchy..., i have never liked or used their magic trackpad and i don't even like the magic mouse 2.

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Old 02-01-2017, 11:12 AM   #84
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I also really appreciate the active input from Justin here thanks.

This confuses me because…..i briefly tried a new professionally installed high end audio pc ( top end SSD ) on windows 10 with reaper and Like Serr I found it very sluggish and had to wait for the menu at top of reaper screen to update with the drop down lists. There was a noticeable delay so i had to send it back.

Compared to my old 2011 macbook air on OSX 10.7.5 lion in which reaper updates almost immediately when you click on drop downs it was unacceptably slow.

Seems very strange that the newer OSX's would be slower than lion ?

….and that a pro audio pc would be slower with reaper than what others ( including Justin ) seem to experience ?

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Old 02-01-2017, 11:15 AM   #85
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Man, that's a pretty DOA-like damning report on the newer OSX builds.
Apple needs to get their act back together and soon!
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:39 AM   #86
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Justin i have another question so please excuse my ignorance but as you just mentioned OpenGL isn't apple pushing for their new Metal Graphics..?, wouldn't this be the best way for Reaper to go on macOS making it faster?.., https://developer.apple.com/metal/

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Old 02-02-2017, 02:14 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
FWIW I think REAPER will always be faster in Windows for screen updates, since macOS does a lot of composition in putting together the views which isn't incredibly fast. We could maybe work around this by using OpenGL views for some views on the mac side, I will experiment with this soon.

I went in to an Apple store to test on a 5k imac... it seemed to work fine with the default scaling -- not as fast as Windows, for sure, but very usable.
Hi Justin, thanks for testing this out! Any other DAW (and software in general) I would have to go through 5 layers of helpdesk and God knows what!

My system is almost identical and I suspect REAPER also runs almost identical (did a clean USB Sierra install and pristine REAPER). For some the lag drives them “nuts” and is enough to switch DAW and for others it is “very usable” and nowhere near a problem…. I really hope you can work something out with OpenGL. REAPER is an awesome DAW and it would be unquestionably great if the GUI would be a bit more fluid on the MAC. The new Retina implementation is already a great visual improvement.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:22 AM   #88
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Could this be related?

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...isplay-issues/

The iMac 5K uses an LG display. The same display in external version, LG branded, is susceptible to Wifi interference.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:37 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Could this be related?

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...isplay-issues/

The iMac 5K uses an LG display. The same display in external version, LG branded, is susceptible to Wifi interference.
Only when the moon is full....
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:45 AM   #90
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Sorry for being dumb and asking this again. I am on 2011 mba osx 10.7.5.
The GUI on reaper was much faster than on pro desktop pc win 10 so i sent pc back ( had noticeable lag )

Has the GUI slowed right down since El Capitan ? because its very quick on lion on 2011 MBA.

( only asking as want to upgrade soon ).
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:48 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
Sorry for being dumb and asking this again. I am on 2011 mba osx 10.7.5.
The GUI on reaper was much faster than on pro desktop pc win 10 so i sent pc back ( had noticeable lag )

Has the GUI slowed right down since El Capitan ? because its very quick on lion on 2011 MBA.

( only asking as want to upgrade soon ).
This is a clean fresh installed Sierra and pristine REAPER (define slow.....) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8 (No snap)
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Old 02-02-2017, 08:26 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
This is a clean fresh installed Sierra and pristine REAPER (define slow.....) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8 (No snap)
Thanks for that. I can see there is a noticeable delay but how do you make the time selection follow the right click drag selection please so i can replicate and compare ? ( preferences ? ). This isn't default behaviour on my version thanks.
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Old 02-02-2017, 08:28 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
Thanks for that. I can see there is a noticeable delay but how do you make the time selection follow the right click drag selection please so i can replicate and compare ? ( preferences ? ). This isn't default behaviour on my version thanks.
With the mouse modifier: Media Item Bottom half => Marquee select items and time ignoring snap
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Old 02-02-2017, 08:52 AM   #94
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Quote:
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With the mouse modifier: Media Item Bottom half => Marquee select items and time ignoring snap
Thank you. On my reaper ( 5.311 64 bit ) it was in mouse modifiers > context : arrange view

i have tried it and it is considerably faster than your video. There is a very slight delay but nothing like that i'm afraid. It is almost instantaneous even when fast dragging. Maybe someone else on an older osx could post a video to show this please ?

Like i say i had the same sort of problem on a new high spec win 10 pc as you are experiencing although i didn't do that test and i don't think it would have been quite so slow if i had but this shows me that the lag has increased considerably since lion on osx and it is a problem so i can understand your situation sorry. I hope they ( apple or reaper ? ) can find a solution as i love reaper and wouldn't want to have to move to logic when updating system but if that video is representative of the speed then i would have no choice ( for the way i use it ) if it can't be fixed.

EDIT : i managed to make a video with quick time but it caused a considerable lag in reaper which was not at all representative of how it works for me with reaper alone.

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Old 02-02-2017, 11:18 AM   #95
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I've done some experiments that might benefit the 5k iMacs (and RMBP for that matter to a lesser extent) -- check out 5.33pre10 on the pre-release forum...
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:46 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I've done some experiments that might benefit the 5k iMacs (and RMBP for that matter to a lesser extent) -- check out 5.33pre10 on the pre-release forum...
Thanks Justin!

This is the previous clean Sierra instal (pre 9 if I remember correctly) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8

This is pre10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eokwI9V7RcI

I tried to replicate the same movement…. REAPER seems to be a bit more fluid.

Window resizing with a full arrangement seems to go a bit smoother https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkQhfzO1j3o
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:56 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
Thanks Justin!

This is the previous clean Sierra instal (pre 9 if I remember correctly) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8

This is pre10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eokwI9V7RcI

I tried to replicate the same movement…. REAPER seems to be a bit more fluid.

Window resizing with a full arrangement seems to go a bit smoother https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkQhfzO1j3o
it'd be easier to tell if snapping was turned off
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:57 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post

EDIT : i managed to make a video with quick time but it caused a considerable lag in reaper which was not at all representative of how it works for me with reaper alone.
Recording with Quicktime does not change the lag on my iMac, but it will tax the CPU and/or GPU. If your mac is a bit older, this could affect the results. You could try it with your iPhone or something similar. Older MacOSX plus hardware could very well work better with REAPER. 27" Retina (very high resolution) makes a considerable difference in REAPER fluidity.
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Old 02-02-2017, 12:01 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
it'd be easier to tell if snapping was turned off
I know... But It is really turned of.... It is a bit of a lag. Same as with the window resizing.

Maximum zoom slow and no snap on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5bCCV8HSGI (pre9)
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Old 02-02-2017, 12:09 PM   #100
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I know... But It is really turned of.... It is a bit of a lag. Same as with the window resizing.

Maximum zoom slow and no snap on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5bCCV8HSGI (pre9)
Do you have a "force selection to be multiples of" set in the grid/snap configuration window... want to make a screenshot of there?

Or ahh, maybe it's something specific to the use of that mouse modifier (that the time selection adjustment lags) -- if you adjust the time selection via dragging in the empty track area (with snap off) is it smoother?

Try this: prefs/appearance, set update mode to "Lazy always"
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Old 02-02-2017, 12:29 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Do you have a "force selection to be multiples of" set in the grid/snap configuration window... want to make a screenshot of there?

Or ahh, maybe it's something specific to the use of that mouse modifier (that the time selection adjustment lags) -- if you adjust the time selection via dragging in the empty track area (with snap off) is it smoother?

Try this: prefs/appearance, set update mode to "Lazy always"
"force selection to be multiples of" is not set….

Dragging in the empty track area (with snap off) made no difference....

Lazy is an improvement!! I will (re)upload the pre9 (in a moment) with "lazy always", otherwise it will be a bit hard to compare.

Pre 10 with "lazy always" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PKzuA5HjUY

Pre 09 with "lazy always" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQEAe3Zpt-w

Side note: The Lazy refresh speed setting translates to a general smoother GUI experience than the fast refresh speed setting, one would expect the opposite… I presume lazy puts less strain on the CPU/GPU. Only in pre 10 it seems... Pre 09 not much of a difference.
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Old 02-02-2017, 02:32 PM   #102
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I've been testing on a friend's imac5k. Two notes:

1) it looks like i have a way to get another small performance gain, another 10% or so.

2) These displays support 30 bit color, which is why they are so slow-- all of our updates are converted up to 64 bits per pixel. I'm going to do some googling to see if there's a way one can disable that for better performance...

Edit: try this: System Preferences, Display, Color tab. Choose 'Generic RGB Profile' and restart reaper
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:05 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I've been testing on a friend's imac5k. Two notes:

1) it looks like i have a way to get another small performance gain, another 10% or so.

2) These displays support 30 bit color, which is why they are so slow-- all of our updates are converted up to 64 bits per pixel. I'm going to do some googling to see if there's a way one can disable that for better performance...

Edit: try this: System Preferences, Display, Color tab. Choose 'Generic RGB Profile' and restart reaper
Thanks Justin! It’s awesome that you are so active to figure this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrAwX6Hgw00 Generic RGB + Lazy always on is smoother!

Pre 10 Lazy iMac color profile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PKzuA5HjUY
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:20 PM   #104
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I haven't been able to test things out today as you've been updating, but I wanted to add that I really appreciate your responsiveness on this issue Justin. Even though it's not been a major problem for me, it's great to see you putting so much thought into improving the situation.

(Now if only you have time to look at my FR for something that would allow me to ditch my other DAW completely and use Reaper for all my pro work, life would be even more wonderful.... :-D )
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:32 PM   #105
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I have also tested this on my machine. Specs are below. I agree with what has already been stated, the responsiveness of click and drag movement is greatly improved in this pre. The only gripe I have at this moment graphics-wise is the jerky movement of the playhead line. Is there any way to smooth that up a bit too? It looks like half of the line is trying to go at 60fps, while the other half wants to move at 10fps.

That would be my only thing to look at as well, but it looks like the dragging responsiveness is improved dramatically!

Thanks for all you're doing, Justin. It really is appreciated.

My machine:

iMac Retina 5k, 27-inch, Late 2015 - Edit: Running OS X El Capitan 10.11.6

3.2 Ghz Intel Core i5

32GB 1867mhz DDR3 Ram

AMD Radeon R9 M380 2048 MB
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Old 02-02-2017, 05:32 PM   #106
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Sorry to repeat this, but I think it's the most important thing I've learned relating to this:

If you have a Retina iMac, REAPER (and likely other applications) will be significantly faster if you set the color profile (in System Preferences, Displays, Color tab) to "Generic RGB" or "Adobe RGB" (and restart REAPER)!

This is due to the Retina iMacs supporting 10-bit color, which most applications do not use or support, and which causes a great deal of extra processing to happen when updating the screen.

This applies to older versions of REAPER as well, they should be significantly faster when not using the iMac color profile...
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Old 02-02-2017, 06:20 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Sorry to repeat this, but I think it's the most important thing I've learned relating to this:

If you have a Retina iMac, REAPER (and likely other applications) will be significantly faster if you set the color profile (in System Preferences, Displays, Color tab) to "Generic RGB" or "Adobe RGB" (and restart REAPER)!

This is due to the Retina iMacs supporting 10-bit color, which most applications do not use or support, and which causes a great deal of extra processing to happen when updating the screen.

This applies to older versions of REAPER as well, they should be significantly faster when not using the iMac color profile...
I can confirm this on my machine. Very smooth and fluid on any click and drag movements. Meters also seem very responsive. Still seeing a lot of jumping on the playhead line, but I think that is the only issue I'm seeing at this point.
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Old 02-03-2017, 08:58 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Sorry to repeat this, but I think it's the most important thing I've learned relating to this:

If you have a Retina iMac, REAPER (and likely other applications) will be significantly faster if you set the color profile (in System Preferences, Displays, Color tab) to "Generic RGB" or "Adobe RGB" (and restart REAPER)!

This is due to the Retina iMacs supporting 10-bit color, which most applications do not use or support, and which causes a great deal of extra processing to happen when updating the screen.

This applies to older versions of REAPER as well, they should be significantly faster when not using the iMac color profile...
Confirmed. Whole system is more snappy! Besides REAPER working much better, this is a free system upgrade! I would have never figured out that changing the color profile would have such an impact!
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:10 AM   #109
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Thankyou very much Justin.., on my 5K iMac Reaper runs smoother on Generic RGB but not on Adobe RGB.., resizing everything in Reaper and zooming is smoother but it could definitely be better, and the playhead still moves horribly!?.., it looks like its running at 2 fps..???.., I've tried out the pre10 and Reaper is starting to look better as well, I cant wait for further improvements as this helps the editing and work flow more enjoyably and not frustrating.

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Old 02-04-2017, 11:14 AM   #110
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Thanks so much for the discovery about color profiles Justin. I'm definitely seeing some improvements across the board even on my mac mini's at 1080p. I also use my ipad as a secondary monitor with the Duet app, and it even improved the performance on that.

The improvements in Reaper, however, are fairly minimal. I'm guessing maybe this is as good as it gets with my current system? Still very usable even if that's the case.

My other thought is that some of the sluggishness (at least for me) is related to trackpads and inertia and not just the GUI performance. That is really where I notice a big difference between Reaper and other application on OSX. Is there any room for improvement in regards to trackpad responsiveness?

Thanks again for spending the time to look into these issues!
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Old 02-12-2017, 04:09 AM   #111
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By accident discovered that the 32 bit REAPER version has (considerable) less lag than the 64 bit version, no idea if this has any implications.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NId05aHQPF4 (32bit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3QVtvFevWY (64bit)
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:40 AM   #112
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I found this yesterday and find it interesting.. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207528
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:49 AM   #113
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Quote:
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I found this yesterday and find it interesting.. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207528
.
Yes, very interesting! Does confirm what Justin discovered, and the good news is that Apple is at least aware of this…. Hope this helps REAPER in the near future. Thanks for the link! For the time being I reverted to El Capitan though… Less lag.
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:26 AM   #114
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FYI, It looks like all the 5k iMac models are the cheapened version like some of the 21.5" 4k models where they permanently glued the glass shield to the LCD display component!!

The standard model has a removable glass shield to protect the screen which is replaceable if you break it. This "cost reduced" permanent one also sends repair costs through the roof! Turns a $60 repair into $300!

I'd seriously avoid any of the iMacs with glued on glass shields!
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:01 AM   #115
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I discovered this in the worst way possible just before Christmas.... :-(
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:15 AM   #116
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Please do not derail this thread guys!.., this is about the software not the hardware!.

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Old 02-19-2017, 06:27 AM   #117
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Really strange; I'm not noticing any performance difference between colour profiles on late 2015 27" iMac (but then, I didn't notice problems in the first place).
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:20 PM   #118
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Hey folks,

Try unchecking "Antialiased fades and envelopes" in the "Appearance" preferences pane. I was getting horrendously choppy interface issues, which got worse the more envelopes and items I had on screen, and also affected the frame rate of the video window and control surface feedback. One checkbox deselected and now it's super smooth, and only slightly less pretty
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:36 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vocalnick View Post
Hey folks,

Try unchecking "Antialiased fades and envelopes" in the "Appearance" preferences pane. I was getting horrendously choppy interface issues, which got worse the more envelopes and items I had on screen, and also affected the frame rate of the video window and control surface feedback. One checkbox deselected and now it's super smooth, and only slightly less pretty
Thanks for the suggestion Vocalnick! REAPER is indeed a bit smoother! I’m on Capitan (reverted back from Sierra) and using not that many envelopes, but still notice a difference… This could add up!
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:24 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vocalnick View Post
Hey folks,

Try unchecking "Antialiased fades and envelopes" in the "Appearance" preferences pane. I was getting horrendously choppy interface issues, which got worse the more envelopes and items I had on screen, and also affected the frame rate of the video window and control surface feedback. One checkbox deselected and now it's super smooth, and only slightly less pretty

I have gone backwards and forwards with this option several times and I notice no difference.


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