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Old 06-14-2018, 06:36 AM   #1321
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BTW.:

As the X-Touch in native mode features two "Layers", I can use any hardware control element in dual modes.

Hence I have a lot more buttons available than visible.

Downside: Unfortunately everything sent to the not active layer is lost (a design bug of Behringer's). Hence the Layer B control elements can only be used in very dedicated purposes.

Running out of buttons, I'll try to use a Layer B button for "unpin".

-Michael
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:10 AM   #1322
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Fixes bugs in modifiers (Shift, Option, Control, Alt)
How to use these ?

-Michael
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:19 AM   #1323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
BTW.

To me it seems like the second page might be usable for stuff like controlling plugin parameters.

But this supposedly would imply not to use banking, and multiple such pages e.g. related to certain plugins in certain tracks: in fact a two dimensional matrix.

How is this supposed to be accomplished ?

-Michael
Once again Banking and Paging are two separate concepts.

You can Bank on any Page to move around.

You could certainly use a page for plugins if you wanted to.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:21 AM   #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
How to use these ?

-Michael
You just make .rst entires for these.

Of course you need spare buttons to assign to them
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:43 AM   #1325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
You just make .rst entires for these.
That of course I did know.

Are they to be pressed in advance or together with some other key ?

But regarding their names they seem to be used in combination with other keys. Supposedly such combinations need to be defined in the .axt file.

I'll take a look if I can find a hint on that.

Later:

Seems like the "+" character is used for this....

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 06-14-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:01 AM   #1326
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Hi Geoff,

I'm just trying the latest builds out, do you have a list of keywords that the CSI software can utilise?

i.e. for track automation in the action files (.axt) i see you using commands such as
TrackAutoMode 1
TrackAutoMode 3
etc.

Obviously in REAPER there's action command id's which i can see can be used by using "Reaper <command_id>" in the .axt file. So i'm wondering three things, if you could shed some light:-

1. Why would you use "TrackAutoMode 1", rather than the ID for Read Automation? (i.e. "Reaper 40401"). ? Perhaps TrackAutoMode is simply a constant variable which equals "4040"?

2. Is there a list of the fixed keywords (or constants) that CSI will understand, and if they have additional parameters, i.e. such as "TrackAutoMode <param1>" ?

3. When using the standard MCU .rxt and .axt's together, i can get automation to trigger (Both track and global when holding shift), however, the lights on the MCU don't change for those automation changes - how would i go about getting that feedback to work?

I'm using the setup files that exist by default on the latest download if it helps.

Thanks!

Edit: Just noticed that if you put a space in the Page names and then a number, then REAPER fails to load, in testing i used "Page 1" and it failed. Renamed to "Page1" and was ok.

Last edited by Skijumptoes; 06-14-2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:44 PM   #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Hi Geoff,

I'm just trying the latest builds out, do you have a list of keywords that the CSI software can utilise?

i.e. for track automation in the action files (.axt) i see you using commands such as
TrackAutoMode 1
TrackAutoMode 3
etc.

Obviously in REAPER there's action command id's which i can see can be used by using "Reaper <command_id>" in the .axt file. So i'm wondering three things, if you could shed some light:-

1. Why would you use "TrackAutoMode 1", rather than the ID for Read Automation? (i.e. "Reaper 40401"). ? Perhaps TrackAutoMode is simply a constant variable which equals "4040"?
Was using the modes from a Reaper internals programming point of view, I probably should check and make sure both ways work equivalently

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
2. Is there a list of the fixed keywords (or constants) that CSI will understand, and if they have additional parameters, i.e. such as "TrackAutoMode <param1>" ?
The pre alpha is settling down quite a bit, so probably soon.
In the meantime, I think the current list is mostly covered in the .axt files, look there for examples.

I can think of 1 missing one:
MapFXToWidgets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
3. When using the standard MCU .rxt and .axt's together, i can get automation to trigger (Both track and global when holding shift), however, the lights on the MCU don't change for those automation changes - how would i go about getting that feedback to work?
Yeah, that's a current bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
I'm using the setup files that exist by default on the latest download if it helps.

Thanks!

Edit: Just noticed that if you put a space in the Page names and then a number, then REAPER fails to load, in testing i used "Page 1" and it failed. Renamed to "Page1" and was ok.
Yeah, need to tighten up the config pages to disallow spaces, thanks for reminding me
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:26 PM   #1328
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Mackie MCU, MCUXT, C4 / Reaper 5.91 / Win7x64 / macOS 10.13.5

Latest build working well here, not one crash (that so totally jinxed it ) Now have scribble strips working on the XT and changing the virtual surface order in the setup put the XT to the left of the MCU- thanks Geoff! Width control also !!

Ignore my previous comments about end stops for banking, they already exist- just one click more than I would have expected, ie I would expect it to stop when track 1 is positioned on the first fader in the page (far left) not the last (far right) Vice versa for last track, far right fader not far left. Pretty subjective stuff.


Minor problems and missing stuff:

i)The page color is left stuck on the bank of tracks the session was saved with. By that I mean if I save the session with tracks 17-32 active on the surface(s) and showing green on the screen, when I reopen the session tracks 17-32 will be colored green, in addition to the tacks colored green by me banking around. Not a biggie and I know you plan to restore the previously set track color when the page is not showing on the surface, so it will probably get fixed with that.

ii)Touching or moving the fader does not show the track volume in dB on the lower display line instead of the pan info. I only mention this because I saw it in the MCU.axt file so figured it was meant to work. Not a big deal for me.

iii) There's a few lights on the MCU that don't work, principally the auto section and the channel signal present LEDs. I think Ski mentioned this already.

iv) Big red LED timecode/bars+beats counter not working.

I'm with Ski regarding getting a list of the handles available for access by CSI, when you think things have progressed far enough.

I'm going to start looking a lot more closely at assigning some Reaper actions to MCU buttons now that things are settling down.

I guess the next big one is plugin mapping- how are things looking? Itching to get the C4 going (with its displays!) now that we're really narrowing the gap with the original WaddC4's functionality (in terms of banking speed, CSI kills it )

Keep up the fantastic work and have a beer or two on me
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:07 AM   #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Mackie MCU, MCUXT, C4 / Reaper 5.91 / Win7x64 / macOS 10.13.5

Latest build working well here, not one crash (that so totally jinxed it ) Now have scribble strips working on the XT and changing the virtual surface order in the setup put the XT to the left of the MCU- thanks Geoff! Width control also !!
Great to hear, thanks for testing !!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
i)The page color is left stuck on the bank of tracks the session was saved with. By that I mean if I save the session with tracks 17-32 active on the surface(s) and showing green on the screen, when I reopen the session tracks 17-32 will be colored green, in addition to the tacks colored green by me banking around. Not a biggie and I know you plan to restore the previously set track color when the page is not showing on the surface, so it will probably get fixed with that.
Yeah, that just shows that using track colours to indicate navigation is totally wrong other than for proof of concept.

Speaking of which... check out colours in next build, they should restore properly after CSI has "moved by" them -- Just don't press Save

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
ii)Touching or moving the fader does not show the track volume in dB on the lower display line instead of the pan info. I only mention this because I saw it in the MCU.axt file so figured it was meant to work. Not a big deal for me.
Hmmm... can't check here, running Avid Artist in Mackie mode, only has top scribble strip.

Can you try putting the Touch on the Upper display:
ChannelDisplayUpper TrackTouchControlled TrackVolumeDisplay

Let me know what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
iii) There's a few lights on the MCU that don't work, principally the auto section and the channel signal present LEDs. I think Ski mentioned this already.
Yup, lots to do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
iv) Big red LED timecode/bars+beats counter not working.
That's pretty low hanging fruit, might try to get that into the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I'm with Ski regarding getting a list of the handles available for access by CSI, when you think things have progressed far enough.

I'm going to start looking a lot more closely at assigning some Reaper actions to MCU buttons now that things are settling down.
Cool, like I said there's only one or two more than are shown in the various supplied files, not a long list... yet


Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I guess the next big one is plugin mapping- how are things looking? Itching to get the C4 going (with its displays!) now that we're really narrowing the gap with the original WaddC4's functionality (in terms of banking speed, CSI kills it )
Yup !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Keep up the fantastic work and have a beer or two on me
Thanks !
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:55 AM   #1330
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Really looking forward to the plugin control with parameter feedback!

In regards to the volume being tracked on the display, then i've noticed that the ordering of display elements in the .axt affect what gets displayed.

i.e.

ChannelDisplayLower TrackPanDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower TrackTouchControlled TrackVolumeDisplay

WILL show pan and then volume when the volume is changed, whereas:-

ChannelDisplayLower TrackTouchControlled TrackVolumeDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower TrackPanDisplay

Will only display pan.

So, i think you need to ensure that the default state needs to come first in the file.

Colours also return to their defaults when banking away from them in this latest build, so good work on that concept. However, i've turned off the colouring feature off as it recolours all the clips on that track too which is a bit confusing for me, and of course the above issue with saving the project with the colours enabled!

Also in terms of LED's don't forget the little assignment (2 digit) LED on the MCU's - it would be great if this could show the current page set is selected, or track number etc.


One other thing, how would i assign a plugins controls to the encoders below the screen on my MCU? I see there's examples for Console1, but i can't work out how i would do this with the MCU as the encoders are already mapped via the CHANNEL and CHANNELEND group. Can i reference the encoders again individually in the same MCU.rst? i.e.:-

MCU_VPot_1 b0 10 00 7f
MCU_VPot_2 b0 11 00 7f
MCU_VPot_3 b0 12 00 7f
MCU_VPot_4 b0 13 00 7f
MCU_VPot_5 b0 14 00 7f
MCU_VPot_6 b0 15 00 7f
MCU_VPot_7 b0 16 00 7f
MCU_VPot_8 b0 17 00 7f

Or do i put them into a new .rst and create a page based around that?

You referenced the following commands previously:-
TrackOnSelection MapTrackAndFXToWidgets

But i don't know if that still applies after the recent updates, or, in fact what it is and when it's needed?
Thanks!

Last edited by Skijumptoes; 06-15-2018 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:38 AM   #1331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
In regards to the volume being tracked on the display, then i've noticed that the ordering of display elements in the .axt affect what gets displayed.

i.e.

ChannelDisplayLower TrackPanDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower TrackTouchControlled TrackVolumeDisplay

WILL show pan and then volume when the volume is changed, whereas:-

ChannelDisplayLower TrackTouchControlled TrackVolumeDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower TrackPanDisplay

Will only display pan.

So, i think you need to ensure that the default state needs to come first in the file.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Colours also return to their defaults when banking away from them in this latest build, so good work on that concept. However, i've turned off the colouring feature off as it recolours all the clips on that track too which is a bit confusing for me, and of course the above issue with saving the project with the colours enabled!
Thanks for testing, the version you have will not survive a page change, but the newer version should

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Also in terms of LED's don't forget the little assignment (2 digit) LED on the MCU's - it would be great if this could show the current page set is selected, or track number etc.
Thanks for the reminder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
One other thing, how would i assign a plugins controls to the encoders below the screen on my MCU? I see there's examples for Console1, but i can't work out how i would do this with the MCU as the encoders are already mapped via the CHANNEL and CHANNELEND group. Can i reference the encoders again individually in the same MCU.rst? i.e.:-

MCU_VPot_1 b0 10 00 7f
MCU_VPot_2 b0 11 00 7f
MCU_VPot_3 b0 12 00 7f
MCU_VPot_4 b0 13 00 7f
MCU_VPot_5 b0 14 00 7f
MCU_VPot_6 b0 15 00 7f
MCU_VPot_7 b0 16 00 7f
MCU_VPot_8 b0 17 00 7f

Or do i put them into a new .rst and create a page based around that?

You referenced the following commands previously:-
TrackOnSelection MapTrackAndFXToWidgets

But i don't know if that still applies after the recent updates, or, in fact what it is and when it's needed?
Thanks!
Widgets actually get assigned a role and a name.

Usually they are the same but in the case of a Channel Widget they are different:
ChannelRotary
role = ChannelRotary
name = ChannelRotary1, ChannelRotary2, etc.

Just use the names in your .fxt files like this:
ChannelRotary1 Threshold
ChannelRotary2 Gain

You probably want to use this line in your .axt file:
TrackOnSelection MapFXToWidgets
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:55 AM   #1332
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Ok, so basically anything defined between the Channel and ChannelEnd keywords will automatically have an absolute definition created with a number suffix, correct?

So in the case of my MCU i've assigned it as 9 channels (As i pin the 9th to master), therefore:-

As i've got ChannelRotary in the Channel and ChannelEnd grouping, then by default ChannelRotary1 to ChannelRotary9 will exist as absolutes that i can use in .axt's?

That makes a lot of sense, if so.


In regards to the early FX/Plugin control that's in this build, can i bind the MapFXToWidgets function to any other controls other than TrackOnSelection?

i.e. say if i wanted to use the [plugin] button on my MCU to go between pans and FX control rather than it happening everytime i select a track, i did try this in the .axt:-
Plugin MapFXToWidgets

But does not work.


Also, do you have any kind of parameter feedback running that we can try, or am i straying too far up the path with that request?
i.e.
ChannelDisplayUpper FXNameDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower FXValueDisplay


Thanks as always!
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:23 AM   #1333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Ok, so basically anything defined between the Channel and ChannelEnd keywords will automatically have an absolute definition created with a number suffix, correct?

So in the case of my MCU i've assigned it as 9 channels (As i pin the 9th to master), therefore:-

As i've got ChannelRotary in the Channel and ChannelEnd grouping, then by default ChannelRotary1 to ChannelRotary9 will exist as absolutes that i can use in .axt's?

That makes a lot of sense, if so.
Yup, you've got it.

One thing, there really isn't a ChannelRotary9, the Master Channel has no Rotary, so the definition exists, but it never gets called, the rest of the rotaries will work though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
In regards to the early FX/Plugin control that's in this build, can i bind the MapFXToWidgets function to any other controls other than TrackOnSelection?

i.e. say if i wanted to use the [plugin] button on my MCU to go between pans and FX control rather than it happening everytime i select a track, i did try this in the .axt:-
Plugin MapFXToWidgets

But does not work.
Hmm... are you sure ?

It might be that it works but no plugin templates are defined.

Does it work with TrackOnSelection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Also, do you have any kind of parameter feedback running that we can try, or am i straying too far up the path with that request?
i.e.
ChannelDisplayUpper FXNameDisplay
ChannelDisplayLower FXValueDisplay
Getting' a little out front of the skis, sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes, definitely planned, but not quite yet...
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:41 AM   #1334
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One thing, there really isn't a ChannelRotary9, the Master Channel has no Rotary, so the definition exists, but it never gets called, the rest of the rotaries will work though.
Ok brilliant, that's how i thought it would be

Quote:
It might be that it works but no plugin templates are defined.
Does it work with TrackOnSelection ?
Yes:

TrackOnSelection MapFXToWidgets - Works
Plugin MapFXToWidgets - Doesn't trigger from the 'plugin' button.

What do you mean by plugin templates? The .fxt file? If so, i have those created for the plugins that i've tested. If you mean something else, please explain further.

Quote:
Getting' a little out front of the skis, sorry, couldn't resist.
Yes, definitely planned, but not quite yet...
lol, well, the plugin control is something that really excites me with this project - I really like the thought of having an EQ controllable via faders for the gain on each band, and the pots/encoders affecting the frequency band. That's just one example.

One other thing while i have your attention (Sorry!), but is there a way of stepping through the FX slots currently? Say if i had a synth on FX Slot 1, and a delay on FX Slot 2 - can i control the second slot via a control?

i.e.
ChannelRight FXSlot 1
ChannelLeft FXSlot -1

Or maybe there exists something like:-
Plugin MapFXToWidgets 1
EQ MapFXToWidgets 2
Instrument MapFXToWidgets 3

So i can hard assign Plugin/EQ/Instrument buttons to be FX slot 1,2 and 3?

Appreciate that these functions will be more advanced as you progress, but thought i'd check if there's anything like that in there already.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:00 AM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
TrackOnSelection MapFXToWidgets - Works
Plugin MapFXToWidgets - Doesn't trigger from the 'plugin' button.

What do you mean by plugin templates? The .fxt file? If so, i have those created for the plugins that i've tested. If you mean something else, please explain further.
Aha, I see where it's going wrong... which leads to a design question.

When you press the Plugin button, would you expect the plugins to open for the selected track ?

If so, I can easily call what we have now a bug and fix it, probably the easiest and most intuitive route.

If you want a behaviour other than mapping the FX of the selected track, let's discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
lol, well, the plugin control is something that really excites me with this project - I really like the thought of having an EQ controllable via faders for the gain on each band, and the pots/encoders affecting the frequency band. That's just one example.

One other thing while i have your attention (Sorry!), but is there a way of stepping through the FX slots currently? Say if i had a synth on FX Slot 1, and a delay on FX Slot 2 - can i control the second slot via a control?

i.e.
ChannelRight FXSlot 1
ChannelLeft FXSlot -1

Or maybe there exists something like:-
Plugin MapFXToWidgets 1
EQ MapFXToWidgets 2
Instrument MapFXToWidgets 3

So i can hard assign Plugin/EQ/Instrument buttons to be FX slot 1,2 and 3?

Appreciate that these functions will be more advanced as you progress, but thought i'd check if there's anything like that in there already.
Been thinking about this a bit, do we really want to restrict ourselves to simple slot navigation.

A while back we were talking about a matrix model for Virtual Surfaces.

An MCU would be an example of a one row matrix -- the channels.

A C4 would be a more familiar matrix with 4 rows and 8 columns.

Please chime in with any ideas on this.

You can control more than one FX simply by mapping:

FX1.fxt
ChannelRotary1 FX1Param1
ChannelRotary2 FX1Param2
ChannelRotary3 FX1Param3

FX2.fxt
ChannelRotary4 FX2Param1
ChannelRotary5 FX2Param2
ChannelRotary6 FX2Param3
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:22 AM   #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
When you press the Plugin button, would you expect the plugins to open for the selected track ?
Yes, but where they open is another question. Ski would probably want them to open across the VPOTs, faders and possibly channel buttons of the MCU, using the MCU scribble strips.

I would want them to open on the C4 using the C4 display strips and leave the MCU as it was ie channels-fader, pan etc. This probably goes for anyone with an additional, non banking control surface, like your Console 1.

Slot navigation is probably best done with the up/down buttons on the MCU (to the immediate left of the jog wheel) or the up/down on the far right of the C4- but we should be able to assign any button to this, like any other action, right?

ps I switched those two lines around in the axt, like Ski suggested, and now have the volume appear on the MCU lower display row when the fader is touched. Thanks Ski
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:51 AM   #1337
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Actually, after a bit more thought, what probably should happen when you press the plugin button is the the names of the plugins corresponding to the first 8 slots of the selected channel appear on the scribble strips. Pressing a further select button on, say, channel 3 should then open the 3rd slot's plugin parameters mapped across VPOTS, faders, buttons etc. or on the C4, as defined in the fxt file.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:53 AM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
When you press the Plugin button, would you expect the plugins to open for the selected track ?
In this instance when you say 'open' do you mean the GUI open in REAPER? If so, Not too concerned about that. What i was wanting with this build is to be able to swap between the VPOTS controlling track PANS (Their default assignment) and Plugin parameters WITHOUT being reliant on the Select track mechanic, as it's too inline for my purpose.

i.e. in normal usage i may 'select' a track to control an instrument on that track, but i still want to retain the pan controls and for it not to default to FX control. It's then up to me to push the plugin button (to initiate the MapFXToWidgets toggle) if i want to dive into controlling the FX/Plugin.

Longterm, i'd ideally be wanting something like this:-

Press Plugin button to go into FX/Plugin control mode.
2x LED (Assignment) displays F1 (For FX Slot one) - so i know the focus is on the first slot.
If possible the plugin name on that fx slot shows on the top row (For a second or so), i.e. 'ReaComp'.
Then....
UpperDisplay shows shows the first 8 plugin parameters names from slot 1 that i've pre-assigned in the .axt
LowerDisplay shows the plugins vals for those parameters

I can then do the following:-
Use VPOTS 1-8 for plugin parameter adjusment as displayed
Press Bank LEFT/RIGHT to scroll through next or previous 8 parameters (i.e. 9-16, 17-24 etc).
Pressing Channel LEFT/RIGHT i could scroll through the FX Slots (Updating the LED display to F1/F2/F3 etc.)

Obviously that's a much longer term view, but at the moment as there's no visual feedback when you swap to the MapFXToWidgets mode, i would prefer to have it bound to a button other than SELECT, so i know when it's engaged. At that's what isn't working for me.


Quote:
Been thinking about this a bit, do we really want to restrict ourselves to simple slot navigation.

A while back we were talking about a matrix model for Virtual Surfaces.
An MCU would be an example of a one row matrix -- the channels.
A C4 would be a more familiar matrix with 4 rows and 8 columns.
I think FX/Plugin control should be the same concept as your CHANNEL and CHANNELEND type grouping, but only active when in 'FX' mode.

So i would have something like:-

FXGROUP 8
ChannelRotary Encoder b0 10 00 7f
ChannelRotaryPush Button 90 20 00 7f
FXGROUPEND

As you're supplying the number of controls within a group rather than within the CSI interface (i.e. FXGROUP '8') within the rst it gives you flexibility to setup for controllers that may have 8 faders, and 16 rotaries, i.e. you could have:-

FXGROUP 16
ChannelRotary x x x x x x
ChannelRotaryPush x x x x x x
FXGROUPEND

FXGROUP 8
ChannelFader xx x x x x xx
FXGROUPEND


And in the .fxt file i could refer to them in a matrix fashion with a ROW and COLUMN type arrangement to determine how they layout on the controller.

i.e. :-
<rxtName> <row> <col> <fxParam>

ChannelRotary 1 1 Cutoff
ChannelRotary 1 2 Resonance
ChannelRotary 1 3 FilterType
ChannelRotary 1 4 FilterEnv
ChannelRotary 1 5 FEAttack
ChannelRotary 1 6 FEDecay
ChannelRotary 1 7 FESustain
ChannelRotary 1 8 FERelease

ChannelRotary 2 1 AMPAttack
ChannelRotary 2 2 AMPDecay
ChannelRotary 2 3 AMPSustain
ChannelRotary 2 4 AMPRelease
....etc.

That would mean that on ROW 1 i have 8 Filter controls as above, and ROW 2 i have Amplitude controls as above. Only Row 1 would be visible on my MCU, until i use the Bank Left/Right buttons to move to Row 2.

On a C4 Row 2, 3 and 4 would be visible and you could bank across to show rows 5,6,7,8. Plus any map made for an MCU could be immediately used on a C4 due to the matrix type approach and CSI could work out the pages required for each based on the number after FXGROUP (as i exampled) in the .rst.

I hope i'm explaining myself clear enough. :-/

Last edited by Skijumptoes; 06-15-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:06 AM   #1339
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Actually, after a bit more thought, what probably should happen when you press the plugin button is the the names of the plugins corresponding to the first 8 slots of the selected channel appear on the scribble strips. Pressing a further select button on, say, channel 3 should then open the 3rd slot's plugin parameters mapped across VPOTS, faders, buttons etc. or on the C4, as defined in the fxt file.
That's a cool method and i like it, but the problem with it is that you're relying on a display to exist and set number of controls to cover the possible FX slots - which may not translate to controllers outside of the MCU-type format.

Defaulting to the 1st FX Slot is going to be most people's primary target so it's quicker to get control of the main plugin with a single button press, and then you only need 2 buttons to move between the slots, rather than 8.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #1340
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You don't really need to have the slot FX names appear as long as you know which slot is currently focused and that will need some kind of visual feedback.

Most surfaces have illuminated channel select buttons, so it seemed natural that they would select the slot when in 'FX' mode. If you use up/down style buttons a display of some kind becomes essential.

I'm not sure I accept the premise of a 'main' plugin Obviously it depends on your workflow, but my channels usually go: preamp/harmonic thing, EQ, compressor. None of these are any more 'main' than any of the others. I'm just as likely to want to go directly to the EQ as I am the compressor or pre.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #1341
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Just to let you know.

When doubleclicking the project I configured with several tracks to test CSI, Reaper starts and CSI works.

When using Reaper with some other project and then use "recent projects" to open the same CSI-testing project, Reaper closes without a message.

-Michael
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:53 AM   #1342
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You don't really need to have the slot FX names appear as long as you know which slot is currently focused and that will need some kind of visual feedback.

Most surfaces have illuminated channel select buttons, so it seemed natural that they would select the slot when in 'FX' mode. If you use up/down style buttons a display of some kind becomes essential.
Good point! Maybe some kind of neural brain plugin then so we can just 'think' what we want to control? Geoff could have us doing his laundry then, and we wouldn't even know!

I suppose, in terms of CSI it could do both if there's a FXSlot_Offset and FXSlot_Select functions. And that's kinda the aim here, right?

i.e.
FXSlot_Offset +1 will select the next slot as focus
FXSlot_Select 3 will select slot 3.

Quote:
I'm not sure I accept the premise of a 'main' plugin Obviously it depends on your workflow, but my channels usually go: preamp/harmonic thing, EQ, compressor. None of these are any more 'main' than any of the others. I'm just as likely to want to go directly to the EQ as I am the compressor or pre.
Yeah good points, i use more outboard hardware so pre-amps etc. are all done pre-REAPER, and i EQ using groups so they don't sit on the source channels, and then effects (Such as delay/reverbs)using sends. So you're right, workflows differ greatly. I very rarely have more than 4 on a single channel unless it's a ridiculously poor vocal.

In terms of VSTi/AUi's i would have the instrument as my main focus, and as the MCU sits to the side of my midi controller i use it for instrument adjustments more than i do the controls on my actual keyboard controller, purely because i find the MCU such a quick and efficient device - it's bulletproof and has been my best friend for years!

One question to you - on your C4 would you like to be able to have Row 1 Rotaries control Pre-Amp, Row 2 EQ, Row 3 Compressor etc? If so, that really needs some serious think to make this project truly flexible for all of us to enjoy!

I now want a C4 thinking about those possibilities!! lol
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:11 PM   #1343
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Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Good point! Maybe some kind of neural brain plugin then so we can just 'think' what we want to control? Geoff could have us doing his laundry then, and we wouldn't even know!
Geoff doesn't have laundry, he's an AI that's dumbing down to make us feel at ease (and we're already working for him!)

I think there's already an action for selecting FX slots- _S&M_SELFX1 (FX1-8) and also for cycling- _S&M_SELFXNEXT. Don't know whether these would be any good, haven't got that far yet.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:14 PM   #1344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Just to let you know.

When doubleclicking the project I configured with several tracks to test CSI, Reaper starts and CSI works.

When using Reaper with some other project and then use "recent projects" to open the same CSI-testing project, Reaper closes without a message.

-Michael
I get this too from time to time. I don't think projects close properly with CSI active, causing the quit. It's still early days, so I've been quitting Reaper between loads.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:22 PM   #1345
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I think there's already an action for selecting FX slots- _S&M_SELFX1 (FX1-8) and also for cycling- _S&M_SELFXNEXT. Don't know whether these would be any good, haven't got that far yet.
Just gave this a quick try with an FX chain window open and _S&M_SELFX1 and _S&M_SELFX2 assigned to ALT+1 and ALT+2. works- changes the focus from slot 1 to slot 2

Also _S&M_SELFXNEXT and _S&M_SELFXPREV to ALT+DOWN and ALT+UP goes down and up the slots with FX instanciated.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:33 PM   #1346
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One question to you - on your C4 would you like to be able to have Row 1 Rotaries control Pre-Amp, Row 2 EQ, Row 3 Compressor etc?
I've actually tried this out with Geoff's first project, WaddC4. Geoff externalized the plugin mapping so you could create any combo you wanted, but in the end I found it conceptually easier to just have one FX on one C4 page and use the up/down buttons to move between slots. I also map the controls from the bottom of the C4 up so they're nearer my hand and I always have the same controls in the same place- so, for example, LPF, HPF, comp threshold etc are always in the same place regardless of which EQ or comp is being used.

After a while your hand just goes to the right control automatically, just like the analog boards I used to use.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:06 PM   #1347
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I've actually tried this out with Geoff's first project, WaddC4. Geoff externalized the plugin mapping so you could create any combo you wanted
Yeah, that doesn't work for us MCU only users though! You can't map to plugins using Wadd on an MCU - unless i'm mistaken?!.

As for your other suggestions regarding the FX Slot select in S&M Extensions - fantastic idea!! Thanks for that bit of genius, i just mapped the following to my directional buttons as a test:-

Left Reaper _S&M_UNFLOATFXEL
Left Reaper _S&M_SELFXPREV
Left Reaper _S&M_FLOATFXEL

Right Reaper _S&M_UNFLOATFXEL
Right Reaper _S&M_SELFXNEXT
Right Reaper _S&M_FLOATFXEL

And it's really handy, with that i can press the cursors left or right and it will firstly unfloat any other FX windows, then Selects the next in the chain for that track AND then float it.

Which means, i can cycle through all FX on a track and each one floats as i do so AND becomes selected. I then have the down button to bypass a plugin an the up button to manually close all.

However, i've just realised that the .fxt files don't only control the selected FX - they control them all, so if you've got ChannelRotary1 assigned to several plugins .fxt file, and they exist on the same chain, CSI tries to control them all regardless of which is selected.

Is there anything that can be done to correct that Geoff? i.e. a mode to focus only one .fxt at at time to the selected FX?

Or are we trying to go too far up the plugin/fx path for you?
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:12 PM   #1348
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Yeah, that doesn't work for us MCU only users though! You can't map to plugins using Wadd on an MCU - unless i'm mistaken?!.
Actually, the Klinke plugin will do this for you I used this before I got the XT and C4 and went Wadd.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:15 PM   #1349
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I'm on Mac mate, so no Klinke plugin for us, hence my desperation for CSI. :-(
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:23 PM   #1350
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Aah, I see.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:49 PM   #1351
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I also map the controls from the bottom of the C4 up so they're nearer my hand and I always have the same controls in the same place- so, for example, LPF, HPF, comp threshold etc are always in the same place regardless of which EQ or comp is being used.

After a while your hand just goes to the right control automatically, just like the analog boards I used to use.
Yeah, that's why I like the Console1, you get really good muscle memory quite quickly.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:52 PM   #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
However, i've just realised that the .fxt files don't only control the selected FX - they control them all, so if you've got ChannelRotary1 assigned to several plugins .fxt file, and they exist on the same chain, CSI tries to control them all regardless of which is selected.

Is there anything that can be done to correct that Geoff? i.e. a mode to focus only one .fxt at at time to the selected FX?

Or are we trying to go too far up the plugin/fx path for you?
Nah, that's really a result of being biased towards the Console1 right now, look for a lot of additions in the plugin mapping over time.
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:00 PM   #1353
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Great discussion !

But I was actually asking a very simple question.

If you have the Plugin button mapped to MapFXToWidgets, what happens if no track is selected ?

So, I agree you should be able to select different tracks, but what happens then ?

Is Plugins a latch type button that stays in plugin mode until pressed again ?

Does that mean that selecting different tracks remaps to the FX of the currently selected track if Plugins is engaged ?

These things often turn out to be trickier than first expected, but there is often an optimal way buried in there somewhere
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:12 PM   #1354
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Quote:
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Is Plugins a latch type button that stays in plugin mode until pressed again ?
Yes, if you have a non-banking surface that will follow the selected track and provide control of the plugins on that track.

No, if you are using the same faders and rotaries for Level,pan and send, then it needs to be a radio button- either the faders and rotaries are pans, sends or plugin controls.

Tricky
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:31 PM   #1355
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Appreciate your interest in this Geoff, replies are purely how i would imagine it:-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
If you have the Plugin button mapped to MapFXToWidgets, what happens if no track is selected ?
Well, without knowing the complications of your code, either nothing would happen, or the previously selected tracks FX will fall under control.

Quote:
So, I agree you should be able to select different tracks, but what happens then ?
As you select another track it goes back to the normal mode, and if you want to change the plugins on the newly selected track, then you once again have to press the plugin mode.

The most important aspect is that the display is updated to reflect what mode you're in, that way the user is never confused.

Quote:
Is Plugins a latch type button that stays in plugin mode until pressed again ?
Well, i like the MCU's 'assignment' buttons (Such as Pan/Plugin/Send) being a toggle group, whereby only one mode can be active. So if you press Plugin you then press Pan (Or track) to go back to the main operation mode. For non-MCU devices i guess that would mean it being latchable.

i.e. Plugin gives you FX control, Send gives you SEND levels control. So at any one time the MCU/CSI is in a 'mode' of some sort, and the .rst defines the handling of those as such:-

For 'Pan/Track' mode:-

Channel 9
ChannelFader xxx
ChannelRotary xxx
ChannelDisplay xxxx
...etc
ChannelEnd


For FX Mode:-

FXGROUP 8
ChannelRotary xxx
ChannelDisplay xxxx
etc
FXGROUPEND


For Send mode:-
SENDGROUP 8
ChannelRotary xxx
ChannelDisplay xxxx
etc.
SENDGROUPEND

Which in turn helps CSI to label them if multiple pages of controls are needed.

The real advantage this gives CSI over other controller support is that by shifting modes, you can leave it up to the user if they want to leave faders on volume tracks OR include them as part of the SEND or FX mappable parameters. i.e. in the case of EQ you could use 8 Faders for EQ Gain, and the corresponding 8 Rotaries for the Frequency select. I like the concept of the entire controller being assessable to the plugin, this means that you could have the faders controlling multi-channels on drum or sample VSTi for example - quite a unique feature.

Quote:
Does that mean that selecting different tracks remaps to the FX of the currently selected track if Plugins is engaged ?
No, i would expect CSI to return the controller to it's standard volume/pan like mode.

Quote:
These things often turn out to be trickier than first expected, but there is often an optimal way buried in there somewhere
Well, i hope so!
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:00 PM   #1356
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Ok, so the real question which everyone seems to agree upon.

Whatever mechanism we use the mapping is in the context of the single currently selected track, yes ?
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:04 PM   #1357
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Yes (we're talking about plugin mapping here, right?) The selected track becomes the focus of the plugin mapping, directed (uniquely) to the selected insert slot. Phew..
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:54 PM   #1358
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Yes (we're talking about plugin mapping here, right?) The selected track becomes the focus of the plugin mapping, directed (uniquely) to the selected insert slot. Phew..
Cool, then I propose the following maps:

For C4/Console1 folks, just use what's available, single selecting a track automatically maps that tracks FX to the C4/Console1.

For MCU style, I suggest the following:

Pushing the Plugin button maps the single selected tracks FX to the surface:
Plugin MapFXToWidgets

Pushing the Select button unmaps any currently mapped FX:
ChannelSelect UnmapFXFromWidgets

I think that will do what we need,

Now I just have to write the UnMapWidgets Action
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:41 PM   #1359
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Quote:
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Cool, then I propose the following maps:

For C4/Console1 folks, just use what's available, single selecting a track automatically maps that tracks FX to the C4/Console1.
I've only just got the C4 working, so I'm not really up to speed on this, but will this mean that the focus will be directed to the currently selected insert slot, picking up the .fxt map for the plugin in that slot (Ski and I have found that actions already exist to select/step through the slots, so that should be taken care of)

Regarding the C4, I've got the rotaries working fine, but the no joy with the pushes. Checked the codes actually being sent against the .rst and it looks ok. Am I missing something?
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Old 06-16-2018, 02:58 AM   #1360
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I've only just got the C4 working, so I'm not really up to speed on this, but will this mean that the focus will be directed to the currently selected insert slot, picking up the .fxt map for the plugin in that slot
Yes, and more, expand that from currently selected insert slot to all plugins for this track.

So, with my setup, when i select a Track, any input gain staging, transient/gate shaping, EQ, compressor, output gain staging/saturation plugins map automatically to the Console 1.

But if you have a MCU and are mapping plugins you need to take a different approach.

Also, even with a C4/Console1, you might want to use an integrated MCU for something else, say sends, etc.

This is why we need a matrix navigation discussion, what you call slot navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
(Ski and I have found that actions already exist to select/step through the slots, so that should be taken care of)
Hmmm... what actions did you find for slot navigation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Regarding the C4, I've got the rotaries working fine, but the no joy with the pushes. Checked the codes actually being sent against the .rst and it looks ok. Am I missing something?
What have you got the push switches mapped to in the .axt file ?
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