Old 07-17-2019, 06:51 AM   #1
Chris T
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Default Reliability Problems within Reaper

Hi guys,

I have a few annoying problems, which especially are cruicial in live usage of reaper.

I have been working for ages with DAWs on stage. Now I am adding some new features and plugins to the setup. Here is a list of three problems, which frequently occur, all of them appear after the system ran without problems for a while, sometimes after hours, then again after minutes.

1. NI Session Strings 2 starts glitching mainly on release of notes(every realeased note comes with a popping noise). Reloading the sound cures the problem for a while. At the bottom of kontakt 5 a message pops up whenever the glitches are noticable:"SCRIPT WARNING (Line: 2321, Script: 2): array index out of bounds (using default value 0)!

NI Support couldn't help me, although I believe that it is a bug in the sound. Maybe there is a workaround. Now I am using Kontakt Player 6, same problem, but the message doesn't appear. And I am using Kontakt with many many other sounds without problems. Usually one Kontakt instance per sound.

2. I am using APC mini as a midi controller. I am sending midi to the device in order to illumnate the keys. This works well, until after a while the lights freeze as they are at this moment. I still can control with the device but the device can't be controlled any more. Replugging and resetting all midi devices in the options of reaper helps. The problem returns. Seems like the longer the reaper session is running, the more often it happens.

3. My reaper project is not stable over more than 24h. This has been happening for years on all kind of computers, apple as well as pc. The project is old and I am continuously adapting it. A new project with only audio tracks runs stable. Don't know if it is a certain plugin causing this or a hidden leftover in the project. In the past, I had system crashes or frozen reaper, with the latest version reaper terminates itself, sometimes with a memory access violation message. This never occurs in the first few hours after a reaper start.

The first 2 problems are really bad, and I need a solution soon. What can I do to find the causes? Thanks a lot for your help. I want to get my setup rock solid!!

Cheers
Chris
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:20 PM   #2
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Try to run each plug-in in a separate process (there is a global option to do this, so you will get that automatically the next time you load the project, till you set modes explicitly for particular plug-ins). When something crash next time, you will know for sure in which part that happens.

Check MIDI Out status in REAPER preferences when MIDI is no longer working on device. That way you can separate connection/driver problems from REAPER/device problems.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:53 AM   #3
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Where do I find this setting and the midi status? sounds like a plan. Thanks
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Old 07-19-2019, 03:26 AM   #4
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Preferences/Plug-ins/Compatibility:
bridging/firewalling: In dedicated process per plug-in.

Preferences/audio/MIDI devices. You will see "!!! N/A" if output has "disappeared" from REAPER perspective.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T View Post
1. NI Session Strings 2 starts glitching mainly on release of notes(every realeased note comes with a popping noise). Reloading the sound cures the problem for a while. At the bottom of kontakt 5 a message pops up whenever the glitches are noticable:"SCRIPT WARNING (Line: 2321, Script: 2): array index out of bounds (using default value 0)!

NI Support couldn't help me, although I believe that it is a bug in the sound. Maybe there is a workaround. Now I am using Kontakt Player 6, same problem, but the message doesn't appear. And I am using Kontakt with many many other sounds without problems. Usually one Kontakt instance per sound.
This is not Reaper's fault, there's a bug somewhere in that script apparently. It would happen on any DAW and any version of Kontakt, the library itself would need an update for the script.

To replicate those sorts of bugs, a MIDI file that consistently reproduces it is best way to go. Try to make the MIDI file as short as possible, but that it shows the script warning, then send that MIDI file to NI for investigation. However, absolutely make sure that the script warning happens every time you play through the MIDI file (and preferably at the same point in the MIDI file).

Bridging Kontakt in Reaper won't sort this one out.
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:37 AM   #6
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Bridging Kontakt in Reaper won't sort this one out.
Just to make it clear, my suggestions was for (3) and (2) (in that order) only.
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:39 AM   #7
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Gotcha, all good.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
I have a few annoying problems, which especially are cruicial in live usage of reaper.

I have been working for ages with DAWs on stage.
That always makes me paranoid! Computers are the least reliable things we own!* Sooner or later we all have "computer problems" and usually it takes more than a few minutes to fix. That's more than "annoying" if it shuts down the show.


If the computer is critical to the show I recommend having a back-up system that's configured and ready-to-go. And it's best if both computers are dedicated to that purpose so no "playing around" with the computers during the day.


Some people use a computer every night and they never have a problem and I've read about some performers having a show ruined by a computer glitch and they say, "I'll never use a computer live again".


...Guitar players usually bring an extra cable and extra strings. The "big acts" have spares of everything!


If the show can go on without the computer (if the computer is used for lighting or something like that) then maybe an occasional failure isn't the end of the world. Or, if you play the same venue every night, maybe one or two blown shows a year isn't too terrible.


And if you're recording something critical where there's chance for "take 2" I recommend two systems recording in parallel. A stand-by backup is not enough because you usually don't know there was a recording problem until it's too late.






* It's not always the "computer's fault"... I could be a user/configuration error, or a plug-in or driver incompatibility, or something like that.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
Preferences/Plug-ins/Compatibility:
bridging/firewalling: In dedicated process per plug-in.
When I do this, the APC mini does no longer control reaper. I have set up some actions to do so. Reaper control path doesn't receive midi events from the APC any more. Why? Seems like this is related to the "MIDItoReaControlPath" plugin which is not doing the job any more. I am using this to map teh APC messages from channel 1 to channel 16 in a track before I send the data to reaper control path by this plugin.

Last edited by Chris T; 07-20-2019 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:32 AM   #10
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You can set that per plug-in. In the "Add FX" list, right click on the plug-in and select "Run as" -> "Native". Reload the project so the setting apply to existing instances.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:54 AM   #11
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You can set that per plug-in. In the "Add FX" list, right click on the plug-in and select "Run as" -> "Native". Reload the project so the setting apply to existing instances.
Cool, now I got it. So what do I expect now? Reaper won't crash but just a single plug-in?
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:36 AM   #12
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Cool, now I got it. So what do I expect now? Reaper won't crash but just a single plug-in?
Now REAPER runs in one process and plug-ins in a separate process (in many or just in one, that is why there are 2 modes).

So yes, you can wait till something crash. Then you know what is crashing, REAPER or plug-in (and in case of process per plug-in, which one).

The trick is that any plug-in can crash anything in the same process. So you can get misleading crash in REAPER part or in different plug-in. With separate processes approach, plug-in has no chance to corrupt REAPER.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This is not Reaper's fault, there's a bug somewhere in that script apparently. It would happen on any DAW and any version of Kontakt, the library itself would need an update for the script.

To replicate those sorts of bugs, a MIDI file that consistently reproduces it is best way to go. Try to make the MIDI file as short as possible, but that it shows the script warning, then send that MIDI file to NI for investigation. However, absolutely make sure that the script warning happens every time you play through the MIDI file (and preferably at the same point in the MIDI file).

Bridging Kontakt in Reaper won't sort this one out.
Very good idea. Just that I wasn't able yet to record the bug. Looping a short sequence all night long doesn't cause the error. At least now after changing the bridging settings. Coudn't possibly one plug-in cause a error in a different plug-in as azlow3 is describing? The strange thing is that I reported the bug 1 1/2 years ago and it wasn't fixed. If it was just the script, I wouldn't be the only one screaming. Ok, it seems to be related to the complexity of playing. I usually get problems when playing with the band (high load condition). From now on, I will always hit the record button when starting. As soon as the problem occurs, I will try to replay and see if it is reproducible. I remember trying to cause the bug in standalone kontakt and it didn't happen. But how sure can you be on these occasionally happening problems..


BTW, reaper was still running this morning, after beeing started yesterday afternoon. One step further thanks to azlow3's hint. Thanks a lot. I hope I can find out something frome there. I have the vage hope, that some of the problems already disappeared.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:49 AM   #14
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according to my girl friend, reaper has crashed in the meantime so there is a problem in my reaper project?
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:50 AM   #15
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Perhaps you could compress a simple problem project file (no audio samples needed) into a ZIP file and post it here as an attachment so that another user can have a look at it and see what's (not) happening?

How to post attachments (in Post #1)
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T View Post
according to my girl friend, reaper has crashed in the meantime so there is a problem in my reaper project?
Sounds like an iffy plugin. But I doubt it's Kontakt...
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:42 AM   #17
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Sounds like an iffy plugin. But I doubt it's Kontakt...
But all plugins are now running in a separate process (except of MIDItoReaControlPath) which was added long after this specific problem ocurred. You still expect a plugin to crash reaper? azslow3 was suggesting that this would not be the case.

BTW, this project was started in times of version reaper 4.x. I am wondering if it would help, if I set up a fresh project from scratch and then import all tracks from a template at once. At least I could probably get rid of hidden errors in the project (as long as I don't reimport the problem with the tracks). Another idea was to remove tracks in successive approximation manner. Like removing 50% of the tracks then see if the problem remains, then continue or go back to the other 50% of tracks and do the same. Until I probably end up with one track that is corrupted. One problem I saw importing templates was that the master track cannot be put in a template. I have some special routing there, but it would be no big deal to copy this manually, if I setup a new project.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:44 AM   #18
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Both of the methods you mentioned are viable ways to troubleshoot things, so by all means, go ahead.

BTW you should be using dedicated process instead of separate process, so that every plugin gets its own process, this way you can really nail down the one which is creating trouble.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
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BTW you should be using dedicated process instead of separate process, so that every plugin gets its own process, this way you can really nail down the one which is creating trouble.
That's what I did. Maybe I wrote it wrong. But still reaper crashed..
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:41 PM   #20
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according to my girl friend, reaper has crashed in the meantime so there is a problem in my reaper project?
(assuming Windows, please ignore on Apple...)
If that is real REAPER crash, can you publish the screenshot of the error dialog?
If it simply crash, without any dialog, you can try to use this (a bit technical) method to collect information about the crash:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...2&postcount=12

Resulting file can show at least some hints from where it comes.

If plug-ins was not running outside REAPER, it is REAPER itself. Long term project can be the reason, but that still can be something "around" the REAPER. F.e. audio interface, bad RAM (yes, I have seen bad RAM which trigger problems only after days of normal use... and only after many hours in dedicated RAM test), etc.

Also if you now how, check system logs. If the problem is general (like RAM), there can be some hints / crashes of services /etc.
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:40 PM   #21
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ok first of all I created a project from scratch, added master settings and imported the tracks. Let's see what that does. I should also check a fresh project without imported tracks, then import only a fraction etc. I'll also try the dump thing.

Yes it is windows, but the project also crashes on my macbook and on 2 other pc's so I don't think it is the RAM. Also with different interfaces it happens. No crash dialog today, sometimes I saw a message about memory access denied or so. On a different machine I got bsod related to errors to the ASIO driver, but that might have been something different. Interesting, that seemingly the plugins were not the problem.


For the APC problem: I am using a selfmade js script to illuminate the buttons. I am only sending note on messages also for switching the illumination of a button off. Is it possible that I have to send also not off events to prevent a midi buffer from overflowing? I had a similar problem with a selfmade edrum soft trigger, where I only sent note on every trigger. After a while it didn't trigger anymore. After adding note off for every note on, it worked forever. How could I check if this is the problem?

Thanks a lot guys. You are really helping me to narrow it down!
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This is not Reaper's fault, there's a bug somewhere in that script apparently. It would happen on any DAW and any version of Kontakt, the library itself would need an update for the script.

To replicate those sorts of bugs, a MIDI file that consistently reproduces it is best way to go. Try to make the MIDI file as short as possible, but that it shows the script warning, then send that MIDI file to NI for investigation. However, absolutely make sure that the script warning happens every time you play through the MIDI file (and preferably at the same point in the MIDI file).

Bridging Kontakt in Reaper won't sort this one out.
So, with the new project and a midi track looped all night long, I surprisingly could trigger the session strings 2 bug. I already opened a ticket at NI. I will strip down the project a bit (at least the tracks with my custom js plugins) and then send the project to NI.

In the meantime, I am waiting if the project will crash again this afternoon.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:43 AM   #23
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In the meantime, I am waiting if the project will crash again this afternoon.
Reaper has crashed again. I don't get it. Settings are still dedicated process per plugin, project from scratch. I thought this is NOT supposed to happen..
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:43 PM   #24
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ok, maybe this rings a bell:

2 Tracks with a Kontakt instance each. The first "Noire", the second "session strings 2". The session strings bug is present. Both tracks contain the same midi data, but at the beginning, the session strings volume is all down and you only hear piano. But still the strings show the error message "script error" but the glitches are syncronously noticable on the piano track which is already loud. So either there is a cross talk between the two Kontakt instances or the glitches are on the master?


Edit (I wrote something wrong here before):

I stripped down the project to the four tracks playing and seem to have eliminated the crash problem. Therefore, the strings problem had time to get so much worse that it is obvious that the glitches are on the master. You can even see the cursor of the reaper sequencer is getting stuck when the glitches come. And the glitches are much worse now after the track ran for 20 hours. I will post the project. Maybe somebody can reproduce this..

Unfortunately the project with just 2 tracks is too large. Zip is 2.05MB. Can't upload

Last edited by Chris T; 07-25-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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