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Old 02-08-2013, 07:02 AM   #81
Justin
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I haven't tried yet but hopefully adding in stretch markers will allow us to slow down and speed up audio using tempo markers now without weird results?
They should enable this sort of thing, however we'll have to update the tempo map logic to have it apply stretch markers on tempo changes... which is not a trivial thing. Also, tempo ramps etc will still be hosed.

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Doesn't have to be called 'marker'.

Stretch points. Add a stretch point.
True, though there's something kind of awesomely wrong about stretch markers, imo.

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It'd be nice if stretch markers would work without having to add multiple markers. If you just put one down the beginning and end of the item should be seen as the other stretch points.
If you add a single stretch marker and edit it, points will automatically be added at the start and end of the item. You can't have the actual start/end be implied points, though, because you will lose the ability to trim the edges of the item (any item edge adjustment will change stretch rather than the visible content).

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any chance to see a "prevent trasnient" system with stretch marker?
We will certainly have the ability to have certain sections locked to 1.0x rate, but keep in mind that the way the timestretch engine needs to be passed audio, you might have something at 1.0x rate but the transition from non-1.0x rate to the 1.0x rate may not preserve the transients in the way you hope. Timestretch is a very non-linear unpredictable thing, so at the end of the day if you're using it you better just try to make things sound good and not worry too much about what happens inside.

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we have no "transient care", nor "ramp care" yet, these stretchmarkers are just a diff "view" of what we already had by split, (select) and stretch "both sides"
This isn't actually true -- it reuses the same timestretch engine, so it will have different quality characteristics, as split/stretch/xfade modes use two timestretch engines and will behave differently.


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4. The ability to move markers position with re-stretching the audio, this will help tighten up marker points.
Alt+drag a marker.


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The item is becoming crowded.
Yeah, being able to hide/lock the item envelopes, handles, and stretch markers separately would be nice.

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1) Please add option to change the colors via Preferences\Theme Editor.
Already in there.

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One thing that would be uber-cool for some wacked-out sound design would be Pitch/Stretch Mode(algorithm) selection on a per marker basis.
Not really possible, probably, since the timestretch engine needs to operate across markers.

I should mention you can disable "preserve pitch when changing rate" for the item and avoid timestretch altogether, using plain resampling.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:02 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Janne83 View Post
The same was hapenning with the take pitch envelope points some time ago (also with the elastique options.)
And still happens sometimes, even though less than when the feature was introduced.

- Mario
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:02 AM   #83
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Hey Justing thanks for the input.

I tried all the Elastique 2 options and they all produce clicking at random. (playback and also rendering).

Ive tried this on different audio files (guitar like in the example, shorter more percussive material,...) They all get this kind of clicks at random markers.

The same was hapenning with the take pitch envelope points some time ago (also with the elastique options.)

In this case you should make a minimal test project (something less than a meg with media) where it produces bad results, and post that so we can all test.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:09 AM   #84
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In this case you should make a minimal test project (something less than a meg with media) where it produces bad results, and post that so we can all test.
OK. Ill post it asap.

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Old 02-08-2013, 07:10 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
... how would REAPER know what you're trying to select?
No clue. That's a thing for Justin to solve in Reaper within the current design. In the example I posted that's an edit mode where clips aren't active for selection so selecting markers is just done with ranges as normal. You can still add and use markers when not in that mode but when in that mode range selection only applies to markers, the actual clip appears ghosted, can't be selected.

My guess is that they did it that way for that reason, to make selecting multiple markers easy and to have markers visible only when you actually need to see them.

It uses a tool to add and edit markers in that case. Of course, there are actions to drop markers at the current position and all that but the tool makes it a good bit easier if you're dropping a few. Just click to drop a marker with no modifiers or actions.

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Old 02-08-2013, 07:22 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Janne83 View Post
pre6a still randomly produces glitches(can be heard as clicks) on stretch marker/transient positions when the rate is different than 1. Ive tried different recordings and different algorithms and they all click at some points on playback and render.

On MacOSX 64 and 32 bit
Example:

https://stash.reaper.fm/15432/StretchmarkerClicks.mp3

Regards J
That reminds me of a problem I have been getting for months/years now. I am getting some similar and half random click/scratches when a lot of items are either "slip edited" and/or time stretched. I did a report of that months ago but it got totally ignored.

There is quite a similarity between these two problems, and I suppose they may be linked. I can re-report it if that's of any use.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:24 AM   #87
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Alt+drag a marker.
I hope this stuff will get the mouse-modifier treatment eventually.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:27 AM   #88
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Yep, proper mouse modifier treatment for these is a must!

In fact, I would say, don't bother making this feature gold unless this is done in one of the next pres.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:38 AM   #89
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I hope this stuff will get the mouse-modifier treatment eventually.
It absolutely will.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:41 AM   #90
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If you throw a loop onto the timeline, split it up with the stretch markers and then massively stretch, say, the last beat you will hear a portion of the start of the loop being blended into the last part of the loop.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:42 AM   #91
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In this case you should make a minimal test project (something less than a meg with media) where it produces bad results, and post that so we can all test.
I could ot reproduce this on a such a smal lenght of a file. Ive sent the project on your support at cockos email. (the audio file is 2.1meg) I can put it on a dropbox or similar host if you also want others to test this.

The clicks appear at random and not on every payback or render cycle, so its not very easy to capture it. But it gets printed in rendered files as youve seen in the mp3 example I posted.

Is connected with the anticipative processing maybe?


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Old 02-08-2013, 07:51 AM   #92
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What timestretch mode are you using? I should have mentioned that SoundTouch fails completely for this sort of thing -- elastique pro or efficient are the only way to go.
When do we get élastique 2.2.5?


http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3697
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:52 AM   #93
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Getting some random graphic errors. Below the circled space is actually silence but moving around the other parts show waveforms there in random ways. Source item not looped.



As to the timestretch, maybe media items should default to Elastique Pro when you add stretch markers.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:01 AM   #94
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Here's a reproducible bug with grouped markers, where a new marker gets added by itself and the grouping gets lost...

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:01 AM   #95
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Maybe some day, but it would be a completely different can of worms and for purposes of audio users (who will inevitably be the primary users of this feature) it would be a huge waste of time.
Hi,

I can understand about the other can of worms...but in my world i rarely have a project that is ALL audio or ALL midi. And it would be great to be able to fix the timing of a song that has both.

And thanks for these major improvements.

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:08 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Janne83 View Post
Hey Justing thanks for the input.

I tried all the Elastique 2 options and they all produce clicking at random. (playback and also rendering).

Ive tried this on different audio files (guitar like in the example, shorter more percussive material,...) They all get this kind of clicks at random markers.

The same was hapenning with the take pitch envelope points some time ago (also with the elastique options.)



Regards J
I found that with pitch at least the click was at the actual first instance reaper switches from straight audio to pitch adjusted. It didn't use to do this but now I have to slightly detuned the sample so that when I actually do bend the pitch the plugin is already active.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:14 AM   #97
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I found that with pitch at least the click was at the actual first instance reaper switches from straight audio to pitch adjusted. It didn't use to do this but now I have to slightly detuned the sample so that when I actually do bend the pitch the plugin is already active.
This transition should be handled somehow to avoid this clicks. Im sure the devs will find a solution.

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:28 AM   #98
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Seems a bit strange to me (mmv) to move a marker with ALT and not see the marker itself move as relates to the timeline, but to see it stay at the same timeline position while the audio around it changes.

So below, I trying to move that marker to 57.3 with ALT, and have the audio react to that change when I let it go... but the marker stays at the same exact time position it seems.

Is there a way to directly (physically) move it?

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:29 AM   #99
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Not really possible, probably, since the timestretch engine needs to operate across markers.

I should mention you can disable "preserve pitch when changing rate" for the item and avoid timestretch altogether, using plain resampling.
That's great that you can use the rate control for this! I love the fact that I can extend the end of an item and the slowed down part can extend into the empty space. Can't do that on a lot of DAWs! thanks!

Any chance that you can wrangle the pitch control to do something similar when preserve pitch is disabled?

I know this was not on the tables when you would of had to make the item length change in relation to the pitch envelope but if the item acts as a container that doesn't have to adapt it's length then is there way that this might be possible.

There are a lot of people who would love this for sound design (plus classic tape stop effects)

Lastly. A lot of people are asking about adding fancy features inbetween warp markers like you have for individual items but I was hoping that an easier and more powerful way to do this would be add a few smallish features to grouped items.

If a set of grouped items could be stretched and cut up as if it was one whole item then a lot of what people want here would be possible. You could dynamically split at transients and then auto-group. The item would then act as if it was one piece of audio but be able to be stretched and manipulated as a single item (both position only or including rate/stretch too) but grouping at any point could be temporarily disabled to allow tweaking individual items.

If this could work over multiple tracks then you would kill so many birds with that one massive stone!

Multitrack drum editing would gain more power and users could even add an empty item on the parent folder track grouped in with the other child track items to allow editing the parent to affect all the child items (just like cubase does in the below diagram BUT with the waveform overview as a bonus!

PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT!

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Old 02-08-2013, 08:33 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Seems a bit strange to me (mmv) to move a marker with ALT and not see the marker itself move as relates to the timeline, but to see it stay at the same timeline position while the audio around it changes.

So below, I trying to move that marker to 57.3 with ALT, and have the audio react to that change when I let it go... but the marker stays at the same exact time position it seems.

Is there a way to directly (physically) move it?

I think both modes would be useful. The traditional way as you suggest is to move the marker NOT the audio but I can see that having the audio warp instead is cool too especially if markers have already been put on say grid lines.

I can see where it can be a problem though if you don't have any other stretch markers in the item.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:38 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Getting some random graphic errors. Below the circled space is actually silence but moving around the other parts show waveforms there in random ways. Source item not looped.



As to the timestretch, maybe media items should default to Elastique Pro when you add stretch markers.
I had this when moving the first stretch marker backwards/to the left on an item. The item would still play but the waveform would loose it's bottom half.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:41 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
When do we get élastique 2.2.5?


http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3697
ooh, read that quickly again. That seems like a useful addition!
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:18 AM   #103
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Sharing: To have edits flow through to duplicate clips by default. Below when I edit the first clip it's duplicates don't get those edits even though they're all the same source file. Assume that those 3 clips are drum loops being used in a song. Reaper's source looping doesn't apply there because they're not right next to each other, they're copies.

Without that kind of edit grouping I'd have to recreate that edit on each one and/or delete the others and paste the edited one in those spaces again which is probably not the best case...



In the example below the sharing of those stretch edits is the default, the changes flow through to all clip duplicates unless you intentionally break that link first.



I think the second case is the most useful and logical, to share those edits by default, to have duplicate clips be considered to be a natural "group" as relates to stretch markers.

Example: I record 8 tracks of backing vocal harmonies for the chorus of a song and then I copy / paste those harmonies into every chorus. Later in the editing phase I decide to make some minor timing / phrasing adjustments to them with "elastic audio". Those adjustments should automatically flow through every chorus (they're all the same clips?) unless I intentionally break that link first. If they don't flow through I'll have to copy/paste them all again from the edited chorus.

Make any sense? Some things like fades, clip gain, etc, are more often individual edits so those things don't default to being shared, but this is maybe not the same type of thing.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:29 AM   #104
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Agree with Lawrence. This should go for the envelopes too eventually as an option anyway as both scenarios again are useful.

I don't think it's a good idea to use the grouping system for this when items are not vertically aligned but horizontally like your example.

I think then it's better to have them be able to ghost in the same way that midi items can.

This way they should be completely identical and just be a place holder to tell reaper to play the same sample again.

That way we get all our item envelopes effects etc copied as well.

This would be amazing as then I could add a big reverb to one snare hit and then every time that same big reverb hit is needed it doesn't take up any more RAM or resources since it's only playing back the same sample again.

This is even better since I can edit that one item's effects (or anything) and have it mirrored instantly to the others.

If one item needs to be different simply un-ghost it just like MIDI.

Please Justin consider this at some point! These things will bring in so many professional users as it's this stuff that people by samplitude, nuendo protools etc for. when they need time savers like this

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Old 02-08-2013, 09:30 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by merdave View Post
Just a reminder: adding more options and more complexity to these MIDI objects means a much tougher job for the developers; it means re-coding their base objects and creating new, derived child objects that don't break in the future when more options and complexity are "demanded" by the users.

Some good reading: http://blog.learningbyshipping.com/2...e-methodology/
Merdave, you make a good point but I can't help thinking you meant to post this in the now separate midi thread where it might get seen by more people still, a good point though!
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:58 AM   #106
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If you throw a loop onto the timeline, split it up with the stretch markers and then massively stretch, say, the last beat you will hear a portion of the start of the loop being blended into the last part of the loop.


Anyone else get this behavior?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:01 AM   #107
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I don't think it's a good idea to use the grouping system for this when items are not vertically aligned but horizontally like your example.
Agree. It's all good though as long as it can be easily grouped somehow. Progress.

Anyway, if area selection shows up in the near future, that will be the Trifecta no?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:37 AM   #108
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I think both modes would be useful. The traditional way as you suggest is to move the marker NOT the audio but I can see that having the audio warp instead is cool too especially if markers have already been put on say grid lines.
I'd like to see both too.

BTW stretch markers are AWESOME!!!! I am so beside myself with joy
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:59 AM   #109
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Not sure what the difference between snap to grid and quantize is here really, just move the grid down to a small size if you want small quantize, move it up if you want bigger quantize.
The snap markers to grid action works fine, a slidable quantize is pretty pointless until they reimplement the groove grid
So we can already snap all markers in one action? need some FNG support aswell or is that already here aswell? (Not in the studio atm)

And as far as groove gose your singin to the singer there son! (You and i both know they held this back till after updating the midi editor to deal with multiple clips

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:17 AM   #110
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FR #1: Show a vertical guideline on the item, when holding ctrl+alt intending to to add a stretch marker. Allows for more precise positioning of the marker.

FR #2: Reset a marker to 0 stretch (while keeping the marker's placement). Essentially similar to removing a previous marker, and placing a new one at the same position.

Last edited by Evan; 02-08-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:18 AM   #111
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Some additional thoughts...

Vertical Crosshair
Probably needed for all stretch marker edits, for visual alignment with midi notes, whatever.

Grouping Logic
There are maybe some other logical requirements there as relates to phase relationships. Things that are grouped after the fact should inherit any stretch markers being edited, to preserve phase.

Example: Detect transients on a kick drum track and then, anytime after the fact, group it with some other tracks, none of which have any stretch markers. The assumption there on edit (from the grouping) is to protect phase relationships across the entire group, so if you move any marker on the kick track it gets duplicated across the entire group in the same position automatically, to do that, and keeps everything lined up.

So you don't necessarily have to group tracks before adding markers, it always makes the logical assumption (to protect the phase relationships) if you do group tracks anytime later... so the markers kind of duplicate themselves vertically to make that happen.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:40 AM   #112
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The relative timing with bounces from streteched tracks is sometimes off. The top track is the original and the bottom track is the stem render.

It's off (early) by 57 milleseconds here.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:42 AM   #113
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I don't know where Cockos is heading at with this current implementation but even when "edit groups", "area selection" and "pooled (ghost) items" are all directly connected to stretch markers, I don't think we should discuss about things that aren't implemented yet. Not that I doubt about Cockos diligence but I don't think we'll see those other features in this cycle. Let's get these stretch markers right first by reporting bugs and suggesting ideas useful in our daily jobs. I'd rather have a simple but solid feature now and then the enhancements with other features.

EDIT: please don't take this wrong, I need those other features as much as you do, heck those pooled items would save me A LOT OF TIME, but one step at a time.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:52 AM   #114
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suggest actions to:

add stretch marker in selected item on beats

snap stretch marker in selected items to beats


regarding x-fades / transients

timestretch methods probably have optimal crossfade parameters - perhaps zplane provides this

some of these methods simply don't play nice with transients

perhaps a marker offset could be implemented where the actual marker is slightly before the handle so that when handles are on the beat, transients end up on the beat *and* after the crossfade.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:55 AM   #115
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@MN: I thought that was the point of a pre-release, fleshing out functionality now rather than waiting for people to stumble on issues later and have to circle back and fix it ... like they're doing with the midi editor.

My comments were only to help make Justin aware of some stuff he may not actually be aware of (since he only uses Reaper?), not to suggest that it all needs to be in there tomorrow or next week or in the first version.

Anyway... that timing bug I mentioned earlier is variable, time shifting, in the same render. In that stem render it's off 50ms at the start (the first red circle) and only off 24ms near the end (the second red circle).



I think that's (my previous comments) pretty much the limit of what I have useful to add anyway, so... Thanks MN.

Last edited by Lawrence; 02-08-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:12 PM   #116
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Quote:
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@MN: I thought that was the point of a pre-release, fleshing out functionality now rather than waiting for people to stumble on issues later and have to circle back and fix it ... like they're doing with the midi editor.

My comments were only to help make Justin aware of some stuff he may not actually be aware of (since he only uses Reaper?), not to suggest that it all needs to be in there tomorrow or next week or in the first version.

Anyway... that timing bug I mention earlier is variable, time shifting, in the same render. In that stem render it's off 50ms at the start (the first red circle) and only off 24ms near the end (the second red circle).

I think that's (my previous comments) pretty much the limit of what I have useful to add anyway, so... Thanks MN.
But please don't feel discouraged, we all appreciate those ideas and screenshots. I'm just trying to prevent frustrations if something is not implemented at the end of the road. When it comes to audio stuff, you're one of the guys I always read and try to discuss with because you know your stuff.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #117
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Actually, that's my fault MN for not being clear with my intent there, that those were things to maybe just take mental note of, mostly not anything that I personally feel need to happen right now or anytime soon really.

Sorry, I should have prefaced that to be clear that I wasn't actually saying "it's a fail without it".

Just to kinda predict what many people will ask for... which may (no clue, or maybe not) have some direct benefit to the person laying the foundation for it all.

Thanks MN. Mucho Respect.

P.S. If I may... that's something Airon (I think) brought up about the pre-releases, that he wondered why they don't ask some of those question before they even start working on a feature to maybe sometimes get an overview of the big picture. OTOH, that would kinda amount to talking about stuff they plan to do ahead of time which few companies do anyway... so... maybe not.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:24 PM   #118
Janne83
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Just testing the project Ive sent you and after 10 looped plays and few renders I havent found any clicking artefacts.


Thanks Justin and the devs for a quick fix.

Ill do some further testing and report If I encounter any more errors.

Regards J
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:27 PM   #119
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Stretch-markers:
Now, will there be groove quantization?
And stretch across tempo-changes?
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:39 PM   #120
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Perhaps if you try to group items that vertically overlap (on same or different tracks) and that also contain stretch markers, Reaper should ask if you want to copy these over to the other tracks or even bring up a list of items (if you say yes) that you can choose to copy them from.

Vertical alignment lines would be bloody awesome too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Some additional thoughts...

Vertical Crosshair
Probably needed for all stretch marker edits, for visual alignment with midi notes, whatever.

Grouping Logic
There are maybe some other logical requirements there as relates to phase relationships. Things that are grouped after the fact should inherit any stretch markers being edited, to preserve phase.

Example: Detect transients on a kick drum track and then, anytime after the fact, group it with some other tracks, none of which have any stretch markers. The assumption there on edit (from the grouping) is to protect phase relationships across the entire group, so if you move any marker on the kick track it gets duplicated across the entire group in the same position automatically, to do that, and keeps everything lined up.

So you don't necessarily have to group tracks before adding markers, it always makes the logical assumption (to protect the phase relationships) if you do group tracks anytime later... so the markers kind of duplicate themselves vertically to make that happen.
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