I'm looking at upgrading my macbook air to a new version that would have Catalina installed. I know Cockos has a Catalina-compatible release, but I'm anticipating likely compatibility problems with a number of my plugins.
I'm wondering what peoples' experience has been like with Catalina. I've been holding off. Should I avoid Catalina still? Again, I'm not thinking just in terms or REAPER as an OS, but more in terms of general experience, esp plugins.
I bought a new MacBook Pro in late December that came with Catalina pre-installed from Apple. From there I did a clean install of Reaper 6 and all of my other audio software and plugins making sure to use the latest 64 bit versions of everything.
So far so good; I'm not experiencing any issues with any programs.
But be aware that Catalina is 64 bit only - it will not work with any 32 bit programs or plugins. Apple have officially stopped supporting 32 bit software with Catalina. If you have any 32 bit programs or plugins, you need to update them to the latest 64 bit version for Catalina to recognize and run them, and this may break some older projects that incorporate 32 bit plugins. If possible, I suggest going back and exporting each track from older projects to audio (or at least stems) and then bringing them into a new Reaper session to work with in Catalina.
If you're the kind of person that keeps certain 'milestone' OS installs around (eg. 10.6.8), you might want to do that with 10.13.6 before moving forward as well.
Always have a clone of your current system ready to roll back to before upgrading. That makes restoring the old system a painless 5 minute job. Hitting 'upgrade' with no backup is quite the "hail Mary"!
Both my machine desktop (imac 2016) & laptop (macbookpro 2015) always updated to the latest macOS. I also updated my apps & plugins to 64-bit.
The only downside is the gatekeeper. Sometimes un-notarized open source apps, extensions (or plugins) needed to be quarantined in order to work. It’s quite easy with single line in the terminal. Other than that, no problems at all.
I bought a new MacBook Pro in late December that came with Catalina pre-installed from Apple. From there I did a clean install of Reaper 6 and all of my other audio software and plugins making sure to use the latest 64 bit versions of everything.
So far so good; I'm not experiencing any issues with any programs.
But be aware that Catalina is 64 bit only - it will not work with any 32 bit programs or plugins. Apple have officially stopped supporting 32 bit software with Catalina. If you have any 32 bit programs or plugins, you need to update them to the latest 64 bit version for Catalina to recognize and run them, and this may break some older projects that incorporate 32 bit plugins. If possible, I suggest going back and exporting each track from older projects to audio (or at least stems) and then bringing them into a new Reaper session to work with in Catalina.
That is VERY encouraging. I have been reading lists of which companies have declared their vsts catalina-ready, and it's intimidating cuz many have not. I do have a lot of good quality but random free vsts and don't see anything from the publisher/maker about catalina compatibility. It sounds as though you're saying I needn't panic, huh? All of my vsts are 64-bit, so "knock on wood" there shouldn't be "too many" issues? Very, very encouraging.
If you're the kind of person that keeps certain 'milestone' OS installs around (eg. 10.6.8), you might want to do that with 10.13.6 before moving forward as well.
Always have a clone of your current system ready to roll back to before upgrading. That makes restoring the old system a painless 5 minute job. Hitting 'upgrade' with no backup is quite the "hail Mary"!
So, you're suggesting a clone rather than time machine? But if I do it from a clone, it would replace the OS to the one on the clone, no? I'm looking at purchasing a new macbook pro, as opposed to upgrading my OS in my current one.
Although I guess I could experiment first by just upgrading my OS to catalina on my current macbook air, test the compatibility with my plugins, and see if I like it prior to purchasing a new one. That would make sense.
I've never done the clone thing as opposed to the time machine backup. If I did that first and didn't like it, just restoring from the clone brings me back to where i was prior to the upgrade. Would restoring from a time machine backup do the same thing? That is, if I upgrade to catlina and don't like it and then restore from the time machine backup, would it put the old mojave back on my macbook? Or still keep catalina with all of my apps and settings preserved?
That is VERY encouraging. I have been reading lists of which companies have declared their vsts catalina-ready, and it's intimidating cuz many have not. I do have a lot of good quality but random free vsts and don't see anything from the publisher/maker about catalina compatibility. It sounds as though you're saying I needn't panic, huh? All of my vsts are 64-bit, so "knock on wood" there shouldn't be "too many" issues? Very, very encouraging.
So far i haven't had issue with any 64 bit plugins, even those that have not been Catalina ready. But that's just my experience, yours may be different. So I suggest you take your own advice above and update your current MacBook to Catalina and test your plugins to see which ones, if any, you have issues with. Then you can make an informed decision as to whether to grab the MacBook Pro now or wait a bit.
So, you're suggesting a clone rather than time machine?
Always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesgin
But if I do it from a clone, it would replace the OS to the one on the clone, no? I'm looking at purchasing a new macbook pro, as opposed to upgrading my OS in my current one.
Although I guess I could experiment first by just upgrading my OS to catalina on my current macbook air, test the compatibility with my plugins, and see if I like it prior to purchasing a new one. That would make sense.
I've never done the clone thing as opposed to the time machine backup. If I did that first and didn't like it, just restoring from the clone brings me back to where i was prior to the upgrade. Would restoring from a time machine backup do the same thing? That is, if I upgrade to catlina and don't like it and then restore from the time machine backup, would it put the old mojave back on my macbook? Or still keep catalina with all of my apps and settings preserved?
Cloning a hard drive volume copies it exactly. Including every OS file, hidden file, etc etc. All ones and zeros on that drive volume are copied exactly 1:1.
The new copy isn't a "clone" now - meaning it isn't different in some cryptic way. It doesn't identify as a "clone" now. It's an exact copy of your hard drive with a OSX system installed and all your apps and all your data and everything exactly the same as it ever was because you cloned it.
If some cloning app does an incomplete job, just to make up an example, that would be a bug situation. I've used Carbon Copy Cloner for many years and they are on point. If some other cloning app makes a copy that is different in any way - like not including installed apps and settings - then it isn't a functional cloning app.
Doing things 'manually' by copying your data to additional drives yourself and using Time Machine is good! This means you won't lose anything important like your work! But you would need to install OSX yourself and migrate your account from that Time Machine backup in the event you had a hard drive crash or something else happened to screw up the OS install. Something like upgrading to a new revision of the OS that turned out to have an issue or a compatibility issue, for example!
Cloning your system drive means you can boot your computer from the cloned copy. If you upgrade your OS and it goes wrong or if you install something 'funny' and that goes wrong, disaster recovery is simply booting from a cloned copy and then cloning back to overwrite the primary from the backup clone. Takes 5 minutes and you don't even have to figure out the nuts and bolts of what you did wrong.
You can also make a disk image file instead of cloning to a live hard drive volume. That's a way to make a master backup of your system drive that you can store as a file on a data drive. For the day that you ended up corrupting your primary drive, not realizing it, and cloning it to your backup making that copy now corrupt.
Having multiple hard drives kicking around that boot your computer seems foolish not to do IMHO.
Both my machine desktop (imac 2016) & laptop (macbookpro 2015) always updated to the latest macOS. I also updated my apps & plugins to 64-bit.
The only downside is the gatekeeper. Sometimes un-notarized open source apps, extensions (or plugins) needed to be quarantined in order to work. It’s quite easy with single line in the terminal. Other than that, no problems at all.
This quarantine thing I had to do for SWS. How do you do that for other things?
Also 6.11 Catalina overlaps my edit and mixer windows to one screen. I have 2. Any way around that?
this is excellent you guys. Thank you. I'm not anxious anymore about upgrading. I'm encouraged about the compatibility thing with my vsts. For sure I'm anticipating some glitches, but it doesn't seem it'll be as bad as I was anticipating.
And now I feel more comfortable understanding better what I need to do in the way of preparing my clone to bring me back to where I am should I not like the upgrade.
Update: I've been with Catalina now for about a month and a half. Golden. No real issues to speak of. I've found some plugins have been optimized for Catalina. Out of the gate, most of my vst plugins didn't work.
However, easy-schmeezy fix...
Bottom line – a simple terminal command removes the flags which Catalina uses to block VSTs and component files from loading in REAPER:
I love Mac OS but every update or upgrade something don't work anymore or you have to have a particular version for an app to work.
So I ended up having so many different versions of Mac to multiboot from.
It's a nightmare for developers and now they have banned 32 bit apps developers have to come out of retirement to develop a 64 bit app.
I can run Win95 apps on Win10, you should not have to run behind Apple, they should run behind you, I don't buy into it.
I love Mac OS but every update or upgrade something don't work anymore or you have to have a particular version for an app to work.
So I ended up having so many different versions of Mac to multiboot from.
It's a nightmare for developers and now they have banned 32 bit apps developers have to come out of retirement to develop a 64 bit app.
I can run Win95 apps on Win10, you should not have to run behind Apple, they should run behind you, I don't buy into it.
Apple has always been fairly aggressive when it comes to putting old tech out to pasture or forcing change from developers. Wether it’s software like iTunes or hardware like cd/dvd drives, headphone jacks or what have you. They’re pretty unsentimental in killing shit off if they think it’s the right move for the future.
Apple has always been fairly aggressive when it comes to putting old tech out to pasture or forcing change from developers. Wether it’s software like iTunes or hardware like cd/dvd drives, headphone jacks or what have you. They’re pretty unsentimental in killing shit off if they think it’s the right move for the future.
Ah, but whose future?
iTunes stuck around for about a decade longer than it should have.
Meanwhile, everybody I know still needs CD/DVD drives, headphone jacks, USB-A ports, Ethernet, flash card readers, and half a dozen other technologies Apple has deemed to be "old" (i.e. not profitable) and has therefore prematurely killed.
They love adapters, though. Lots of money to be made peddling adapters.
iTunes stuck around for about a decade longer than it should have.
Yeah. I didn’t say they always make the right call. iTunes was pretty good in some respects but the way they used it for everything was seriously kludgy even for Apple. I just said they kill things off if it benefits the vast majority of users as they see it. If you’re one of the few that rely on some legacy tech you’re out of luck. It’s how they operate and always has. Sometimes their ballsy moves are annoying but a lot of the time they drive the evolution of tech forwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maralatho
Meanwhile, everybody I know still needs CD/DVD drives, headphone jacks, USB-A ports, Ethernet, flash card readers, and half a dozen other technologies Apple has deemed to be "old" (i.e. not profitable) and has therefore prematurely killed.
They love adapters, though. Lots of money to be made peddling adapters.
I have not used a CD, headphone jack or card reader frequently for a very long time. On the few occasions I need one I use an external or a dongle. Everything you put in a computer costs money and complicates things. There are many reasons for Apple besides profitability to keep their products slim. If you want lots of legacy compatibility there are many Windows computers that fits the bill. For Apple to really work for you you need to drink the Kool-Aid, go all in and give Tim Apple all your money.
Samsung ran an ad a while back ridiculing the iPhone for the lack of a headphone jack. Guess if the latest Samsung Galaxy comes with one...
All the Win & Lin users paid for the development of Intel hardware then Apple say thank you very much we'll use that and sell it for a lot more.
Of course they are pricey. They have consistently better hardware than the competition. If you want a PC that matches Apple in terms of component quality they’re not cheap either.
They are better hardware as they use Intel Hardware, I have all these G5 PPC's and I use them for boat anchors, where would they be now if it weren't for Win/Lin users developing the new hardware for them.
Open it up and have a look at the same Intel chips.
Last week's Apples are obsolete and redundant so you need to buy a new one.
They are better hardware as they use Intel Hardware, I have all these G5 PPC's and I use them for boat anchors, where would they be now if it weren't for Win/Lin users developing the new hardware for them.
Open it up and have a look at the same Intel chips.
Last week's Apples are obsolete and redundant so you need to buy a new one.
Yes. The way Apple stops supporting older hardware for newer versions of iOS/MacOS can be pretty harsh. If one is looking at buying older gear it pays to really check life expectancy.
With all the Cats, Mountains and Islands versions of Mac I went through I only had to add compatibility mode for 1 app on Windows from 2009 going from win7 > Win10 all the other apps are still working 32 or 64.
It's a shame that Mac can't work that way that's the only thing that puts me off using it solely.
I have a 4k monitor and on Mac they are still using the single taskbar at the top from the days when you could only run one app at a time. Now on a large 4k monitor I may have 4 audio apps running on each quarter, the one down the bottom right you need to go all the way to the top left to access the menu. They should sort that out now to have an option to have the menu at the top of the app window (without looking as though they are copying Windows).
My sister called me and said Mac was telling her to upgrade now so she did and now she says so many of her apps aren't working anymore and can't do her work, she can't understand why.
That is the story of just one person on the planet.
With all the Cats, Mountains and Islands versions of Mac I went through I only had to add compatibility mode for 1 app on Windows from 2009 going from win7 > Win10 all the other apps are still working 32 or 64.
It's a shame that Mac can't work that way that's the only thing that puts me off using it solely.
I have a 4k monitor and on Mac they are still using the single taskbar at the top from the days when you could only run one app at a time. Now on a large 4k monitor I may have 4 audio apps running on each quarter, the one down the bottom right you need to go all the way to the top left to access the menu. They should sort that out now to have an option to have the menu at the top of the app window (without looking as though they are copying Windows).
My sister called me and said Mac was telling her to upgrade now so she did and now she says so many of her apps aren't working anymore and can't do her work, she can't understand why.
That is the story of just one person on the planet.
Sweet Jesus, Bob, you’re on fire today! Really hitting it out of the park with unverifiable, anecdotal evidence here.
While we’re still reeling from the “I only needed compatibility once” bit you just double down and hit us with “my sister’s Mac broke down so they are unreliable”.
Well played, sir!
But seriously, without being snotty...
I switched to Mac a while back after having worked with them on and off over the years but never owned one. Today I’d never go back to Windows but I also realize had I gotten one ten years ago I would probably have hated it. It’s not for everyone and not even at any point in time. But if your needs align with what Apple serves up then their whole eco system can very well be the best computing experience you can ever have.
Yes. The way Apple stops supporting older hardware for newer versions of iOS/MacOS can be pretty harsh. If one is looking at buying older gear it pays to really check life expectancy.
They've definitely gone full Microsoft SOP with that post Jobs.
They've started omitting the last of their Jobs era high end Macs from the OS installer whitelist even though the hardware is fully compatible with the new OS to force new sales.
There's a resource online in Dosdude1 for patched OSX installers, FYI.
I'd say rule of thumb right now should be to stay at least 2 versions back if you use any 3rd party apps. Don't go past 10.13.6 right now.
They've definitely gone full Microsoft SOP with that post Jobs.
They've started omitting the last of their Jobs era high end Macs from the OS installer whitelist even though the hardware is fully compatible with the new OS to force new sales.
There's a resource online in Dosdude1 for patched OSX installers, FYI.
I'd say rule of thumb right now should be to stay at least 2 versions back if you use any 3rd party apps. Don't go past 10.13.6 right now.
“To force sales” is an assumption on your part that sounds a bit like “all companies are evil”. I’m sure Apple enjoys their sales like just like any other company who operates for profit but I’d argue there are other considerations besides sales. You might still be right that all companies are evil but let me just give you the perspective of someone who has worked with software development for a very long time and see what you make of it.
The impact of supporting old legacy hardware and software can be pretty damn taxing. The more combinations of software/hardware you need to take into account the more time it takes and this impact is exponential. We are talking about small tasks that take hours to fix swelling into weeks of testing and rewriting - depending of course on how rigorous your testing process is and where you set the bar. There’s also a big difference between creating an isolated app and managing a whole operating system with all its moving parts.
Now, this extra time needs to come out of some budget so then you fix less overall bugs or add less new features instead. The older or more niche the products you support, the more you allow a small set of users to affect the product value for larger user groups. This is just a reality that every company needs to figure out how to handle and where to draw the line.
In Apples case it gets more complicated still because part of their value proposition to customers lies in the whole “it just works” notion and “walled garden” approach. When Apple screws up and misses something the internet lights up like a Christmas tree. Microsoft can, and has been, pretty sloppy with this because they can get away with it. No one expects reliability from Microsoft in that sense. It does not make Apple a better company, I’m not laying any value in these statements. They are just different companies with different profiles and they get away with different things.
So again, where do they draw the line? All things considered I think it’s ok that you get a good 8-10 years back support on their products. I’ve never kept a private computer for that long my whole life. Professionally even less. If someone at my office complained about an eight year old computer acting up people would shake their heads and wonder why they didn’t just mozy by the IT department to have it replaced.
I have no experience with professional music studios as such but I’m guessing in comparison to what you spend on gear or plugins annually rotating your DAW computers every couple of years is a no-brainer.
“To force sales” is an assumption on your part that sounds a bit like “all companies are evil”.
Not all companies.
But a computer maker that:
- Blacklists fully compatible older flagship models (with higher spec than many new offerings) in their OS installer.
- Goes so far as soldering a hard drive to the logic board to absolutely prevent any repairs or mods.
- "Cost reduces" their entire line (Removing ports, charging port, screen shield, etc.)
is a company changing to a disposable product line and resting on their laurels from their past.
I mean, OSX isn't just broken yet. And we still have the flagship Macs (some of us anyway) and they're still relevant. And there's a lot of work getting done.
Buying new from Apple right now would be a pretty rude awakening and wouldn't feel very Apple-like! It's clearly Linux and DIY builds moving forward. But today this stuff still works and you can actually get a LOT of bang for the buck staying put with the last of the Steve Jobs Macs for the time being.
It's the cult mentality where Apple think that no matter what they do the followers will obey and follow, those that question the Leader will be excommunicated. So followers must be loyal.
As said Apple should run behind the users not users run behind Apple thinking the Leader knows what's best, isn't that how a democracy works.
Look at the whole Catalina 64 bit only thing, how much drama for users and developers it's caused, and for what advantage really.
And mine is quite different. Luckily for us there are three main paths to go down and REAPER supports them all so we can chose what we like best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusoBob
As said Apple should run behind the users not users run behind Apple thinking the Leader knows what's best, isn't that how a democracy works.
I think you’ve got democracy and free market mixed up. Democracy has nothing to do with the production of consumer products. In a free market producers create products as they see fit and then consumers can choose to buy them or not. The consumers are not entitled to have the producers follow their wishes nor are consumers forced to buy specific products. The only thing remotely connected to democracy is that consumers can vote with their wallets.
You can keep going back n forth with this.
But if you look at in an altered universe where Mac has Rosetta, it runs the same 32/64 bit apps on all updates n upgrades.
Would you get users complaining ?: "WTF I went to run a 32 bit app and it worked, this is no good, I don't want this !"
"I upgraded and all the apps still worked, this is totally unacceptable, can we stop this from happening some way ?"
"I clicked on a ppc app and it ran, WTF is going on here, how do I stop this ?"
The BIG compatibility divider is the T2 chip that holds he secure enclave.
An old Mac Pro might be compatible software wise, it doesn't have the T2, so it has to go...
The T2 only offers security to the user. And that seems nothing to some. But it drives development of things like Apple Pay. It's of utmost importance to Apple.
It also renders your Mac unusable in case it gets stolen.
It's the future. Deal with it, or go Linux. Now if only RME would release a driver and TM/DC for Linux...
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
The BIG compatibility divider is the T2 chip that holds he secure enclave.
An old Mac Pro might be compatible software wise, it doesn't have the T2, so it has to go...
The T2 only offers security to the user. And that seems nothing to some. But it drives development of things like Apple Pay. It's of utmost importance to Apple.
It also renders your Mac unusable in case it gets stolen.
It's the future. Deal with it, or go Linux. Now if only RME would release a driver and TM/DC for Linux...
That’s a very good point that makes perfect sense. Apple has really been positioning themselves towards privacy and security so having all their hardware come with a “security chip” becomes a compelling argument. How secure or private that really is can be debated but from a marketing point of view it’s a good way to differentiate themselves from both Google and Microsoft.
I’ve been waiting for decades for Linux to be taken seriously and enjoy the support the other platforms get but it never really seems to happen. I would love to use Linux and I’ve tried a few times but it always falls apart on lack of driver support or key software I just can’t do without. It’s a shame. Such a great platform.
There's a real, double secure authentication system that's extremely hard to hack. Including some special servers from a 3rd party that only deals with banks and such. The system is not unique, but Apple's the only one that also controls a security chip on billions of terminals.
A strong indication that Apple soon wil be a lot of people's bank. Taking on ebay, paypal, Amazon... from the other end. Free payments for all. Or something very much like it.
Don't forget Tim Cook is a grocer.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
I've been a very happy Reaper user for the past 8 years on my 2012 macbook pro. Logic Board broke, but I'm up and running again now on the same machine, which now has Catalina 10.15.3 on it. Having a quick look through these boards and seeing a few issues arising with Catalina - should I stick with it or perhaps roll back to an older OS before I get everything set up again? Be good to have another few years of stress-free music making (as if!) Thanks.
Is it safe yet to upgrade to Catalina?
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