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07-16-2015, 09:24 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Reaper 5 Metering could be better.
Hi everyone, first post ever here.
I'm a sound engineer and i recently fired out ProTools after ten years of pure tears.
Now i'm really satisfied with Reaper and i can tell that I never worked so fast and comfortable.
I'm using the 4.78 on my studio and currently beta testing V5 at home and i'm a little disappointed with metering.
You can of course give metering the behaviour you like in the preferences panel, but metering visualization is so weak in default theme (which is the one i like most).
Just a solid green line until clip lights up.
Here's my advice: metering should have a gradient, just a solid color and small numbers are not as "visual" like a change in metering color when you reach a given threshold (assume -18dbfs as a guide line).
Meter scale should be configurable.
Let's assume i'm working with an SSL console with 24dB headroom.
Should be fine to set my 0dB point on the meter at -24dbfs.
In ITB world should be useful too.
If i'm going to use K-12 scale to mix, should be great if i can have my 0db read at -12dbfs.
This 0db point must be the "threshold" of metering color changes.
Since metering is really crucial to my (and all the other users) work this could be the final step to make Reaper 5 stand out.
Just my thoughts but hope you'll consider that.
Sorry for my bad english and cheers from Italy.
Joe!
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07-16-2015, 02:50 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,030
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Yeah, I agree with you. I also don't like it. I think old Reaper default themes used to have a different colours for the meters. But I guess this has been subject to the current minimal style (think flat metro or material design) trend in UI design where things just need to look neat instead of being functional. It is just a trend and like all other trends it will pass. Until then, you can a) always delete the corresponding images in the Reaper AppData folder and just use the colour settings in the preferences or b) use a different theme that supports different colours out of the box.
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07-17-2015, 12:22 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Yes i understand simplicity and minimal graphics are now the trend. But metering is a really crucial thing in audio production.
There are no themes i like as the default one, because is the cleanest and less fatiguing to my eyes.
I'm like the default theme should offer the better experience it can.
And since many users are not really into graphics tweaking this could be a major upgrade to the current one.
Custom meter scaling is something that every one who works with hybrid digital/analog systems will appreciate and even some ITB metering geeks will love.
I'm a metering nerd...really
If it's easy to do on my own i'll do it, but searched the whole forum and cant figure out how to do :/
I'm completely ignorant about programming and theming.
Can you help me?
I always think this should be included in the main theme, but if it's not possible i'll do it on my own.
Thanks for the reply!
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07-17-2015, 04:32 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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FINALLY someone who understands what I'm talking about for - literally - years now! I had started a feature request, but it seemed nobody really cared. Life could be so much easier, no?
If, at least, there was an easy way for coding idiots like me to change the meters in Walter ...
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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07-17-2015, 05:22 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,030
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07-17-2015, 05:51 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Yes, color wise something similiar.
But we ned also to move that "0db" to use as a fucus point for our metering.
Assuming i'm getting 1,23volts out of my interface with a 1k sine wave at -18dbfs, i need to be able to set -18 as my 0 point on my meter.
So i ave consistency between my ITB and OTB meters, and consequently keep everything consistent.
This could be a killer option from a professional point of view.
Just like beingmf i'm a coding idiot (give me five brother ) and this is a really basic and needed feature
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07-17-2015, 06:03 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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have you tried going to preferences - Appearance - Track control Panels - VU meters?
you can customize a bit the meters there. min value db
max value db
meter update frequency
meter decay
and more options I think it would be great if it could have options for RMS meters as in the master track.
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07-17-2015, 06:29 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Yes Hada, and that's nothing to do with the topic, since these are behaviour and balistic settings of the meters.
The Max Value is the nearest thing to that "moving zero" i'm talking about but has limitation.
Assume i'm using a -18 max value. The top of the meter will read -18dbfs instead of 0dbfs.
if i'm exceding -18dbfs mi clip led will light.
The limitation is that -18dbfs should be a center point, not the end cap of the scale.
My percussive sound should go beyond -18 while my continuous, long envelope sounds, like pads, strings or distorted guitars should stay roughly around that value.
The solution is to allow POSITIVE values until +24db (to allow the usage of k-20 scale).
So when you set 0db as max value you have a dBFS scale, when you change this you'll have a custom scale (could be a -18 scale, K12,k14 or k20).
I'm actually using Klanghelm VU meters set in PPM mode to keep everything lined up, but if that was integrated this could be time saver and more comfortable, with less plugin windows floating around.
EDIT:
When inserting positive value the 0dB marker on the meter should shift down.
For example, if i'm using a max value of +12db, my zero reading is at -12dbfs and so on...
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07-17-2015, 07:56 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjoe
The limitation is that -18dbfs should be a center point, not the end cap of the scale.
My percussive sound should go beyond -18 while my continuous, long envelope sounds, like pads, strings or distorted guitars should stay roughly around that value.
The solution is to allow POSITIVE values until +24db (to allow the usage of k-20 scale).
So when you set 0db as max value you have a dBFS scale, when you change this you'll have a custom scale (could be a -18 scale, K12,k14 or k20).
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That's it. My original post back then assumed that you might as well use analog outboard or mix into an analog mixer or summing device. How convenient (if not uber life saving ) would it be if we had the same readout on digital AND analog meters?
I don't think though it's hard to code at all. But somebody (who? Dev or 3rd party?) should be in charge of doing it
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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07-17-2015, 08:10 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Sure, as long as it is labeled "VU" instead of "FS" since I'd personally never want dbFS to display zero when it isn't actually zero. That's the reason I don't use K-metering. Since I'm very accustomed to knowing the difference between the ITB/OTB worlds I have no problems seeing it as -18 when not simulating VU. See this post...
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...03#post1546503
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 07-17-2015 at 08:26 AM.
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07-17-2015, 10:12 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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I'd like RMS option on meters.
For the master though. You can right click on it and get some decent options up there
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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07-17-2015, 10:24 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
I'd like RMS option on meters.
For the master though. You can right click on it and get some decent options up there
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Well there is this hack... http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=124847 (post #5 has the JS)
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07-18-2015, 01:28 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Sure, as long as it is labeled "VU" instead of "FS" since I'd personally never want dbFS to display zero when it isn't actually zero. That's the reason I don't use K-metering. Since I'm very accustomed to knowing the difference between the ITB/OTB worlds I have no problems seeing it as -18 when not simulating VU. See this post...
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...03#post1546503
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It's not uncommon in the pro-world.
I work with many digital desks and most of all have the zero not set as full scale.
For example Allen&heat T112 surfaces have a +6 full scale, so you know that particular console works best with at least a 6dB headroom.
Digidesign Profile is set to -12dB as 0dB point.
Digico's desks have a +9db...
They are all equipped with peak meter.
This is the truth.
And of course if this is configurable every user can use his own metering system. You can continue reading a full scale metering, I can have my -18dBfs=1.23volts set as my zero, and everyone who wants can use k-metering.
It's just a feature every daw should have. ProFools have it. And since i think that Reaper, for the most part, is way better, it's a MUST.
But as always...just my thougths.
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07-18-2015, 02:11 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Since there are clipping lights, this would be a good deal for professional users. It does not need. to be the default.
Global, right ?
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07-18-2015, 03:21 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 323
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Exactly.
This should be an option.
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07-18-2015, 04:55 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Finland
Posts: 792
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I presume this has been made to a feature request already?
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08-15-2015, 01:34 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Posts: 248
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Also I want value read out like in V4.xx.
__________________
Win10 x64, i3930k, 32GB ram
Audio Post | Music Production | Recording Studio | Voice Over
teeramusic.com - Chiang Mai, Thailand
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08-15-2015, 01:58 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Why not just use Voxengo SPAN? It's free and has configurable metering. Master meter can also be right clicked for more options.
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08-15-2015, 05:36 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Finland
Posts: 792
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And by the way, the lack of gradient in the default Reaper 5 theme was one of the first things I tried to change.
But I discovered it's not going to be that easy since it seems to be using WALTER to override those color values that you input in the theme editor. Either with pictures or some other means.
I had hoped it would have been that easy to get the gradient in there... hopefully I'll get it sorted out soon.
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08-15-2015, 01:04 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
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Delete the three meter_strip images in the theme, reload, and the theme editor options should work.
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08-18-2015, 01:54 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Just to get you right
Hi BigJoe,
This is just to get you right:
So you want not only a meter colour change at -18dbFS (which is easy to achieve, see the Reaborn themes) but also a function that slips the 0dbFS ("pretendingly")down to -18dbFS?
So that the meter reads +4 once you shoot over that -18dbFS to -14dbFS?
I'm gonna think about how this could be done...nice challenge.
In my mixing life metering is important as well, however I use the colours to find my way...I don't care about the numbers.
cheers
PS: I own both, the Klanghelm VU and the Britson console plugin from Sonimus. Britson is a very useful plugin for metering, Neve8014-Saturation, hi/lo pass filtering and gainstaging.
Last edited by Joesi; 08-18-2015 at 02:07 AM.
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08-19-2015, 07:20 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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It would be very nice to be able to change the meters color directly in the preferences !
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08-20-2015, 12:00 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swenerick
It would be very nice to be able to change the meters color directly in the preferences !
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You can do so in the preferences! But first you have to delete the theme-meters from the reapertheme folders.They override the standard meters so you have to kill them.
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08-20-2015, 05:43 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
You can do so in the preferences! But first you have to delete the theme-meters from the reapertheme folders.They override the standard meters so you have to kill them.
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Thank you for your entry, unfortunately, I can't manage to do it.
I don't own at all the Reaper structure
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08-20-2015, 05:56 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swenerick
Thank you for your entry, unfortunately, I can't manage to do it.
I don't own at all the Reaper structure
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yes you do. Once you installed Reaper you have full access to its graphical WALTER ressources. First following question: Are you on PC or Mac? Don't be scared, it's very easy!
Last edited by Joesi; 08-20-2015 at 06:01 AM.
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08-20-2015, 06:04 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
�� yes you do. Once you installed Reaper you have full access to its graphical WALTER ressources. First following question: Are you PC or Mac? Don't be scared, it's very easy!
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Thank you for your entry! Actually, I used both. Mac at work, PC at home, it's a relax day, so I have time to check any suggestion!
I've looked for Walter, but I understand quite nothing about it
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08-20-2015, 06:17 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swenerick
Thank you for your entry! Actually, I used both. Mac at work, PC at home, it's a relax day, so I have time to check any suggestion!
I've looked for Walter, but I understand quite nothing about it
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WALTER is pretty cool but as long as you don't want to make your own theme, we leave WALTER alone and focus on deleting the unnecessary stuff.
In Windows, make sure that hidden folders are visible. Can be switched on in the settings --> folder options. That is because you have to navigate to the app data folder to find all the Reaper stuff.
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08-20-2015, 06:21 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
In Windows, make sure that hidden folders are visible. Can be switched on in the settings --> folder options. That is because you have to navigate to the app data folder to find all the Reaper stuff.
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Done
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08-20-2015, 06:28 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swenerick
Done
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Okay, when you are there click the Roaming folder, then Reaper folder, then colour themes...there you wil find the .reaperthemezip-file. You have to extract it to access the folder...
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08-20-2015, 06:31 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
Okay, when you are there click the Roaming folder, then Reaper folder, then colour themes...there you wil find the .reaperthemezip-file. You have to extract it to access the folder...
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Done
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08-20-2015, 06:43 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swenerick
Done
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Good. Now click on the Default_5.xyz_unpacked folder and there you see all the png-icons Reaper uses to build up its GUI. Scroll down until you see the pngs for the metering...those blue bars, you know. Delete them. Yes, delete them.
As you can see, every channel layout has its own folder by the way
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08-20-2015, 06:52 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
Good. Now click on the Default_5.xyz_unpacked folder and there you see all the png-icons Reaper uses to build up its GUI. Scroll down until you see the pngs for the metering...those blue bars, you know. Delete them. Yes, delete them.
As you can see, every channel layout has its own folder by the way ��
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It's strange, I don't see any blue bar! :s
https://db.tt/mZqclykM
Last edited by Swenerick; 08-20-2015 at 06:57 AM.
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08-20-2015, 07:08 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Sorry, my internet was down for a moment.
Okay, if you have some time I can make a screen capture vid this evening. I'm in the office right now so it's difficult to guide you.
I will upload it to youtube and post the link here, k?
Do you have Reaper 5 or still Reaper 4?
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08-20-2015, 08:09 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
Sorry, my internet was down for a moment.
Okay, if you have some time I can make a screen capture vid this evening. I'm in the office right now so it's difficult to guide you.
I will upload it to youtube and post the link here, k?
Do you have Reaper 5 or still Reaper 4?
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No worries
Thank you in advance for your help!
Stay tuned
I'm new in Reaper (I bought Reaper 5 two days ago, I'm a Logic Pro user but I like many features, so I want to know more about Reaper)
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08-20-2015, 11:42 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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This is why I prefer themes like this:
As you can see, the division of colors is clear at -12 and -24dbFS, and it is consistent along all mixer and Track Panels (always aligned track-to-track)
Once you get basic understand of how to manipulate WALTER and graphics this is easy to achieve, but I agree it'd be nice to have more flexible options because graphics like this also have to align with meter scaling which could be different.
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08-20-2015, 03:29 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Italy
Posts: 122
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The v5 meters are too green too saturate, the db scale is unreadeble!!! Please change the meter pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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08-20-2015, 04:33 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Finland
Posts: 792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcostenik
The v5 meters are too green too saturate, the db scale is unreadeble!!! Please change the meter pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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It's weird how removing dB scale (or making it hard to read), making the whole meter to be practically same color from all it's length were good ideas.
Color change after certain dB value and the ability to read that value from the scale if need be, are functional features that are in every single mixer I've ever used... and they're there for a reason.
And that you can't see with a single glance if monitoring is on (it doesn't pop out enough) because it's just grey button on grey background...
I've no idea who made these design decisions, but they're all not very well thought out.
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08-21-2015, 12:36 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Hi,
I'm back. Yeah, "evening" became next morning. (To be father and audio engineer at the same time is pretty hard.)
Anyway...I just took my first look into Reaper 5's colourtheme folder and noticed that the meter bar changed. It isn't that clearly recognisable bar anymore, now it is a row of little cubes.the graphical process has changed which is very, very cool! because I know what that means...interlaced meters, round LED style meters...whatever you want. One day, I'm gonna change that to my needs. But for now, we want to get rid of that blinding greenblueish meters.
Going to shoot the screen capture vid 3...2...1...NOW.
Gonna post the link when it's done
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08-21-2015, 02:38 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 109
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Done. Sorry for the poor audio quality. I made that in my living room with a €20,- dynamic microphone :-)Just for the sake of being quick
cheers
https://youtu.be/j146VzskEXM
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08-21-2015, 02:39 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesi
Hi,
I'm back. Yeah, "evening" became next morning. (To be father and audio engineer at the same time is pretty hard.)
Anyway...I just took my first look into Reaper 5's colourtheme folder and noticed that the meter bar changed. It isn't that clearly recognisable bar anymore, now it is a row of little cubes.the graphical process has changed which is very, very cool! because I know what that means...interlaced meters, round LED style meters...whatever you want. One day, I'm gonna change that to my needs. But for now, we want to get rid of that blinding greenblueish meters.
Going to shoot the screen capture vid 3...2...1...NOW.
Gonna post the link when it's done
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I know what you mean, 2 little girls here
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