Best way to use external synths?

[summer]

Hello!

Currently evaluating if I want to switch from Ableton to Reaper but I have an input problem.

As far as I can see the only way to get input from external hardware is to use reaInsert, is that correct?

It does work but it adds a considerable amount of latency once added. My asio settings are set to 32 samples and when adding reaInsert it jumps to probably 512 judging from hearing. If I remove it latency goes down again.

I don't have similar problems in Ableton.

Sound device is RME Digiface USB.

Thanks in advance!

[Fabian]

Why would you need ReaInsert? I have my HW synths connected through my audio and MIDI interface, and that works fine. My typical workflow is MIDI out from Reaper to the synths, and then audio from the synth via the audio interface back to Reaper.

[synkrotron]

Reainsert is for when you are sending a signal out to outboard gear and back in again.

As Fabian says, audio from your hardware synth plugs straight into your interface audio input(s)

[summer]

Originally Posted by Fabian

Why would you need ReaInsert? I have my HW synths connected through my audio and MIDI interface, and that works fine. My typical workflow is MIDI out from Reaper to the synths, and then audio from the synth via the audio interface back to Reaper.

Yes, that's exactly what I want to do. How would I do that?

[solger]

Here's a video showing the steps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ1iHnkqiXA

[summer]

Originally Posted by solger

Here's a video showing the steps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ1iHnkqiXA

Thanks!

But I don't have the UI that he is using in the video https://i.imgur.com/Yx0zXJW.png

I just have this: https://i.imgur.com/OFfK798.png

[solger]

Originally Posted by summer

Thanks!

But I don't have the UI that he is using in the video https://i.imgur.com/Yx0zXJW.png

I just have this: https://i.imgur.com/OFfK798.png

Info about the Default Layouts of the version 6 Theme and how to adjust them via the new Theme Adjuster are shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8LTBlNzmhA

Otherwise there's also the option to switch to the version 5 Theme via Options > Themes > Default_5.0

[summer]

Originally Posted by solger

Otherwise there's also the option to switch to the version 5 Theme via Options > Themes > Default_5.0

Thanks. That did show the right buttons: https://i.imgur.com/JEJQKPX.png

But for some reason it doesn't show my Novation Midi keyboard even though it's enabled in midi devices. Or at least I think it should be. It's listed multiple times an some of them say !!!ENABLED when I try to activate them. It's called SL MK II and it's connected via USB. Currently it only shows the inputs from midi ox that is linked from my MIO10.

https://i.imgur.com/FmJtoMt.png
https://i.imgur.com/4VVEWMX.png

[Philbo King]

In windows you cannot simultaneously have the same midi hardware enabled for input in 2 different apps (midi ox and Reaper in your case).

Either close midi ox, or set up midi ox to feed midi to your device to a midi ox virtual port and use that in Reaper. Closing midi ox is easiest.

[summer]

Originally Posted by Philbo King

In windows you cannot simultaneously have the same midi hardware enabled for input in 2 different apps (midi ox and Reaper in your case).

Either close midi ox, or set up midi ox to feed midi to your device to a midi ox virtual port and use that in Reaper. Closing midi ox is easiest.

Thanks, but in this case the midi keyboard is using USB and not going through midi ox.

I have to say I'm pretty confused to how Reaper handles midi and audio in and out. It's so much simpler in Ableton Live.

Is it because Reaper is mostly meant to be VST / VSTi only?

[synkrotron]

Originally Posted by summer

Thanks, but in this case the midi keyboard is using USB and not going through midi ox.

I have to say I'm pretty confused to how Reaper handles midi and audio in and out. It's so much simpler in Ableton Live.

Is it because Reaper is mostly meant to be VST / VSTi only?

REAPER is just different.

I tried Live for a bit and I hated every minute of it.

[synkrotron]

Originally Posted by summer

It's so much simpler in Ableton Live.

May I ask, why are you considering moving from Live to REAPER?

[domzy]

Originally Posted by summer

Thanks, but in this case the midi keyboard is using USB and not going through midi ox.

I have to say I'm pretty confused to how Reaper handles midi and audio in and out. It's so much simpler in Ableton Live.

Is it because Reaper is mostly meant to be VST / VSTi only?

what is the entry "MIDIin2 (SL Mk2)" in your list then? It looks like the Novation is routed through a virtual port or something (loopMIDI or MIDIox perhaps)?

[solger]

See if looking at the project template attached in this post helps: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...76&postcount=6

You'll need to adjust the following settings to your setup:

o Track 1 (MIDI): set the MIDI Input channel to your MIDI Keyboard <- this one needs to be enabled under 'Preferences > MIDI Devices > MIDI Inputs' first
o Track 1 (MIDI) - Routing window: set the MIDI Hardware Output to the Synth (or to the MIDI device where the Synth is connected to) <- this one needs to be enabled under 'Preferences > MIDI Devices > MIDI Outputs' first

o Track 2 (AUDIO): set the Track Input to the appropriate Audio Input channels (where the audio output from the Synth is coming through)

[summer]

Originally Posted by synkrotron

May I ask, why are you considering moving from Live to REAPER?

There are some notable advantages to workflow as far as I can see as you can set up short cut keys for basically everything and add macros as well. I'd also like to use the session view to make beats and Ableton isn't very good for that as it doesn't support showing the shuffle/swing grid in there. It supprts multiple sub tracks pr. track. Plus it's supposed to be more light on resources but I haven't been able to verify that yet. I mean, I could go on. I've seen a fair share of videos that convinced me it would be good to test. But alas I'm stuck at the most basic parts.

[summer]

Originally Posted by domzy

what is the entry "MIDIin2 (SL Mk2)" in your list then? It looks like the Novation is routed through a virtual port or something (loopMIDI or MIDIox perhaps)?

Not sure what "MIDIin2 (SL Mk2)". There is also another one called "3. SL MKII" which is apparently "not present"

In Ableton the Novation USB Keyboard is just called "SL MK2" and there is only one entry.

The only thing I use Midi Ox for is for the MIO10 rack which provides ten in and outs to external hardware. And my only reason for using Midi Ox is so I can have several apps send midi at the same time. Like synth patch editors for example.

[summer]

Originally Posted by solger

o Track 1 (MIDI): set the MIDI Input channel to your MIDI Keyboard <- this one needs to be enabled under 'Preferences > MIDI Devices > MIDI Inputs' first

Thanks, but I'm already stuck at the first bullet point.
Even If I set the track to accept midi from all it seems there is no midi input.
https://i.imgur.com/qeuXnLI.png

And I think it's because the usb midi keyboard is not enabled. And I don't know how to do that. I know it's in the midi settings but enabling "Anything that mentions "SL MKII" does not make a difference.

[summer]

here's a stitched together screenshot of my in devices

https://imgur.com/a/Ip7CXJr

I'm wondering why the top SL MKII isn't available.

[synkrotron]

I think it is important that we try to help you get that MIDI device of yours working.

I've had a look at your list of MIDI input devices.

It is a bit strange that there appears to be three instances of the SL MKII. Then again, you are connecting your SL MKII via USB and there is a MIDI DIN input on that device, so I would expect to see two, I think. I don't have anything similar so I cannot check.

Regarding the top device, 3- SL MKII, which has "!!! N/A: Enabled" in the Mode column, I have searched, as best I can, the official User Guide (V5 and V5) using "MIDI device" and "!!!" and I couln't find anything that explained what that means.

Obviously there appears to be a problem of some sort.

I have a device in my setup that also has the "!!! N/A: Enabled" in the mode column. But I know that is because I currently do not have the device turned on. Once I turn it on the "!!! NA:" disappears.


Okay, here is what I would try if I was having this issue.


1) Shut down computer.

2) Unplug the SL MKII.

3) Turn on computer.

4) Start REAPER.

5) Open Preferences and under MIDI Devices, go through the MIDI inputs list and right click on each SL MKII instance and select Forget device.

6) Shut down REAPER (I do not think this is totally necessary but it is what I would do).

7) Plug in the SL MKII and wait until it is recognised by your computer.

8) Do not start REAPER yet... Open Windows Settings and go to Bluetooth and other devices. I would expect to see a reference to the SL MKII there. I certainly do for all of my MIDI devices. So, hopefully, it is there for you.

9) Start REAPER.

10) Open Preferences and MIDI devices and see what instances of the SL MKII are there now.

11) Report back here with findings.



Sorry about the long list there...


Another thing that would be interesting to see is how the device is configured. Right click on a device and select Configure input...

Post that dialogue box image here.



Okay, lots to take in there. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

cheers

andy

[dupont]

With external synth, I use reainsert because it is easier to send a ping and compensate for hardware latency.

[solger]

Originally Posted by summer

here's a stitched together screenshot of my in devices

https://imgur.com/a/Ip7CXJr

I'm wondering why the top SL MKII isn't available.

Thanks for the screenshots.

According to the SL MkII manual the USB connection consists of 3 sub-connections (ports):

Originally Posted by Novation SL MkII User Guide

The SL MkII connects to the computer via a single USB cable, however this USB connection actually consists of 3 sub-connections called ‘ports’.

Port 1
This port will be used a lot as it sends messages from the SL MkII Keyboard, Pitch / Modulation Stick and Sustain and Expression Pedals.

Port 2
Is generally reserved for special templates in advanced mode, but can be also used in more complex Advanced mode set-ups.

Automap Port (Hidden)
This is a hidden port (i.e. your computer does not display this port anywhere) and is used for all Automap Server messages. The Automap Server application then acts as a bridge between the SL MkII Hardware and your DAW software and plug-ins.

Now, looking at the MIDI Device list in your screenshot, I'm assuming that Port 1 and 2 are the following entries:

• Port 1 = SL MkII <- it should be sufficient to only enabled this SL entry for now (ID 51 in the screenshot)
• Port 2 = MIDIIN2 (SL MkII) <- you can disable this entry for now (ID 52 in the screenshot)

-------------------

You can disable or forget theses two device entries (with ID 18 und ID 19) for now: **

• 3 - SL MkII
• MIDIIN2 (3 - SL MkII)

Windows basically creates a separate USB device instance for each USB Port the device was connected to once. So you probably had the SL connected through a different USB port at one time (which the 'duplicate' entries with 3- at the beginning of the device name represent).

** Some info about managing the MIDI device list (like using 'forget device' as synkrotron mentioned above) is shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xPR4xwEysE

EDIT: Here's also an updated version of your MIDI Device list screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/5z1y7BR.jpg

Originally Posted by summer

Thanks, but I'm already stuck at the first bullet point. Even If I set the track to accept midi from all it seems there is no midi input. https://i.imgur.com/qeuXnLI.png

And I think it's because the usb midi keyboard is not enabled. And I don't know how to do that. I know it's in the midi settings but enabling "Anything that mentions "SL MKII" does not make a difference.

If you haven't already, also try if pressing the [Reset all MIDI devices] button at the bottom right in the MIDI Devices preferences page makes any difference (epecially if a USB-MIDI device was connected or powered on when Reaper is already running).

-------------------

If the issue persists: can you maybe also post a screenshot of how the MIDI device preferences page looks like in Ableton Live (just to double-check how it's currently set up there).

[synkrotron]

Too many cooks spoil the broth... I'll leave this all to you @solger

[Twangothan]

I'll just mention ReaMidiControl which I think is brilliant. I can change banks, patches etc on my ancient Roland JV1010 which has loads of cool sounds and see the patch names etc. I've got a bunch of them set up as track templates so it's super quick finding them. I've also renamed some of them from the daft Roland names to things which mean something to me by just changing the text file. It's a bit of a faff doing the text file with the control changes but it saves so much time once you've don't it. I think it's such a great plug.

[summer]

Thanks to @synkrotron and @solger I managed to iron out the problems. It was a combination of basically going through each midi device and trying out combinations of enabled/disabled plus I had to grasp the way Reaper has to be set up for external synths. Basically having one midi track and one audio track armed on the correct input.

I appreciate you taking the time to help me.

But just to confirm: The way to handle external synths is to have two tracks, one for midi out and one for audio in. Is that correct? So if I wanted to freeze a track the only way to do it is by manually recording the audio? I'm asking because in Ableton midi out and external input can be handled on one track and freezing can be done by just right clicking and selecting freeze and everything is handled by Ableton.

@Twangothan i was actually looking for something like that so I will check it out.

[MusoBob]

I haven't read through this thread, just saw the title and I remembered this
https://ctrlr.org/ it maybe of use to someone.

[synkrotron]

Originally Posted by summer

The way to handle external synths is to have two tracks, one for midi out and one for audio in. Is that correct? So if I wanted to freeze a track the only way to do it is by manually recording the audio?

Yes, this is the way I prefer to work. But I think that it would also be possible to have everything on one track. I've never tried it because I consider my current method to be "neat and tidy," if you know what I mean

[peter5992]

Originally Posted by summer

Hello!

Currently evaluating if I want to switch from Ableton to Reaper but I have an input problem.

As far as I can see the only way to get input from external hardware is to use reaInsert, is that correct?

It does work but it adds a considerable amount of latency once added. My asio settings are set to 32 samples and when adding reaInsert it jumps to probably 512 judging from hearing. If I remove it latency goes down again.

I don't have similar problems in Ableton.

Sound device is RME Digiface USB.

Thanks in advance!

I have my Behringer Model D audio output, fed back into Reaper through my soundcard, M audio projectmix.

One track sends midi out, another track received audio back in.

I don't use Reinsert, and my latency is about 23 ms, which is well within acceptable range.

[billybuck]

Synkrotron, just to clarify, the only reason you would need midi coming in at all is if you want to do something with it later, such as use it with a virtual instrument, or maybe edit mistakes, or send it back out to your synth to record from a different preset because you decide you didn't like the first one you used.

If you just want the audio of the synth to be recorded in real time, you just plug the audio output of your keyboard with a 1/4" plug (or 2 if stereo) and record the audio as you would with a guitar or mic. No midi necessary in that case.

[Naji]

https://youtu.be/RMmBJqTQUTw
You can also treat audio like midi as shown in the video.
Reaper has sometimes so many different ways with the same result finally.
You will not know a new daw within 3 months, the best way is just to experiment, read the manual, watch some videos or read threads in the forum.

[Noodlemeister]

Originally Posted by Fabian

Why would you need ReaInsert? I have my HW synths connected through my audio and MIDI interface, and that works fine. My typical workflow is MIDI out from Reaper to the synths, and then audio from the synth via the audio interface back to Reaper.

Hi Fabian, could you detail your cabling? I’m setting up my system but want to make sure I’ve cabled it up correctly. I, too, have a midi interface, and an audio interface. Do you also have studio monitors? And, if so, how are those cables up?
Many thanks in advance

[domzy]

Originally Posted by Noodlemeister

Hi Fabian, could you detail your cabling? I’m setting up my system but want to make sure I’ve cabled it up correctly. I, too, have a midi interface, and an audio interface. Do you also have studio monitors? And, if so, how are those cables up?
Many thanks in advance

i'm not fabian, but i also use MIDI hardware - standard practice is to connect your synths to your MIDI interface with 5pin DIN cables for the MIDI,
1/4in jack cables to the inputs of the audio interface from the outs on the synths for the audio.
Monitors would be connected to the outputs of the audio interface.