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Old 11-29-2021, 11:36 AM   #41
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Yea, I get that and it's really cool but... just noting it's the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of anyone who want/does run a studio to pay their bills (then or now), simply can't turn people down like that.

I'm with you in spirit, it's the reason I never opened a formal studio. If I couldn't work only with people I respected and were good enough, I didn't want to do it. But that's the general reality so I chose not to pursue that path.
For me, playing in bands always paid all the bills, and it was bands recording in my studio who recruited me to be their sound man, so I had the opportunity to say no.

One such band, started asking me to spec their sound equipment for live, and I could use it in my studio when they weren't playing. They ended up buying some cool shit, that lived in my studio more than it played live gigs.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:43 AM   #42
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Yea, I know, I'm talking about everyone else.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:58 AM   #43
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I mean you'd think by now, I'd have at least cranked a preamp with nothing plugged in just to see how noisy it gets but, since I've sort of trained myself to make music first the last few years, analyze only when something grabs my ear, I don't even think about these things much these days.

I did a quick analog mixdown through it a few months ago, seemed fine, but as per above, I didn't really pay that much attention to the minute details. Sorry about that! It's just not where my head is lately -well I have my occasional flashbacks but I've at least reduced it by a large portion.
This is actually the best review I could hope for!
I am in the same mode (just make music already!), so the fact that you have used the preamps and did even a basic analog mix and don't have any glaring issues is awesome! Thanks!
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:01 PM   #44
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BTW, the guitarist from my band has two X32 mixers, keeping one as a backup spare, offered to let me keep and use the second one, but I didn't want it, because it just duplicates what I already have in two rack spaces, only it would take over my whole entire desk for no gain. I wouldn't used the knobs and faders.

I guess I don't get the draw to physical knobs and faders. When I used to run live sound for several local bands, I'd establish a static mix in the first song of the night, and from there only need to goose things like solos to spotlight them.

Always got a laugh watching other sound guys who were like mad scientists, constantly making multiple adjustments on the board.

In a DAW, I prefer the precision of envelopes, if some fader or effect needs to be ridden during playback. Gawd, I remember the days of having two people using both hands on the mixer, doing multiple tries to get the mix to 2-track.
I hear you, and agree. I already have my all digital fidelity workflow, and know how to get the results I need (and am not doing live sound, and won't be!). That's why I am looking for some options but not willing to buy a 32 track Neve and $5000 converters.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:13 PM   #45
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Yea, I know, I'm talking about everyone else.
Back on topic, are the knobs and faders on the Tascam "take over" or are they "continuous"? I have some of both between an Akai MPD26 and M-Audio Oxygen Pro Mini.

From what I've experimented with, I think I like takeover mode better, where knobs have to go to the position currently set on the track in REAPER before it latches on and starts controlling it.

The only thing I really use either surface for is things like controlling a virtual tape echo, or drawbars on a virtual Hammond, but just to see what they do as control surfaces in REAPER I've experimented far enough to see what they could do if I wanted to use them for that.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:22 PM   #46
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I hear you, and agree. I already have my all digital fidelity workflow, and know how to get the results I need (and am not doing live sound, and won't be!). That's why I am looking for some options but not willing to buy a 32 track Neve and $5000 converters.
The guitarist from my band uses one of his X32s with Logic, but he's only using it as an audio interface, so he has this exotic and expensive digital mixer there on his mix desk, but for what he's doing with it, it could have been the two rack mount units I use.

I ask him if he had setup Logic so he could use all the controls on the mixer, and he said no, he still does all the mixing in the box. He has a second X32 as a spare, but he essentially got that one for free. It wasn't working and when Behringer got it, they said a Coke had been spilled into it. He paid the repair bill and now has a spare X32 with a bunch of knobs and faders he still doesn't need.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:41 PM   #47
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Back on topic, are the knobs and faders on the Tascam "take over" or are they "continuous"?
None of that, it's a pure analog mixer, the Model 24 is not a controller at all, other than syncing transport.
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Old 11-29-2021, 01:03 PM   #48
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None of that, it's a pure analog mixer, not a controller at all, other than syncing transport.
I see. So it has multiple digital outputs into REAPER. Does the Tascam have D/A converters where you could put a project in REAPER on its channel strips? I dunno when you would wanna do that, but there might me a use.

The guitarist I work with has a couple of the X32 mixers, and it has full blown control surface capabilities, but he doesn't use it. He just has mics from drums, guitars, and other stuff plugged into it and uses the sound card functionality with Logic.
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Old 11-29-2021, 01:24 PM   #49
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I see. So it has multiple digital outputs into REAPER. Does the Tascam have D/A converters where you could put a project in REAPER on its channel strips? I dunno when you would wanna do that, but there might me a use.
The tascam, as well as a few Soundcraft models, can take the full track mix that you recorded into Reaper back out to do a full fader mix if you want.
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Old 11-29-2021, 02:29 PM   #50
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The tascam, as well as a few Soundcraft models, can take the full track mix that you recorded into Reaper back out to do a full fader mix if you want.
And what do you send that analog full fader mix to? If it's an old school half inch two track mastering machine, I could see the reasoning.

But if it's going to wind up being a digital stereo mix, it seems like there would need to be D/A conversion of digital audio tracks in REAPER to tracks on the analog console, and then recording the stereo analog mix, would need to go through A/D converters.

Every pass through D/A and A/D converters the signal will degrade a little more.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:01 PM   #51
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I see. So it has multiple digital outputs into REAPER.
The best way to think of it is that the mixer section is like an old school 4-Track, but it's 24 tracks and and has analog compressors at the inputs before the AD converters + connected to a digital recorder + connected to an ASIO interface.

The ASIO interface can see all 24 inputs (Post AD) and outputs (Pre DA). Here's an off the top of my head list of things one could do...

-Set hardware outputs in reaper for tracks or groups that feed each channel on the Tascam mixer, like an analog summing machine.

-Set hardware inputs in Reaper and use the Tascam as a recording interface.

-Use the Tascam as a desert island all-in-one, with the option to move that to reaper (via SD card) at any time.

-Use the Tascam as an all-in-one remote capture machine with basic field mixing abilities before bringing it back home and opening in Reaper.

-Use the Tascam as a writing scratchpad, like a looper on steroids minus the looping. This is one of my main uses as I really enjoy being able to cut the computer the fk off and track minus PC technology. Due to my day job I proverbially spend 23 out of 24 hours a day with a keyboard and mouse in my hand. Sometimes I want to just create and try things out with the computer 100% out of the picture. I was fully capable of recording and mixing songs before DAWs, it's still possible for me to do that now from time to time.

-Various hybrid combos should one desire.

However, this is a bit of a niche piece of gear, 90% of the world, including you, wouldn't have a use for it but I do. Especially since I really enjoy recording/practicing without a computer monitor in my face.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:46 PM   #52
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However, this is a bit of a niche piece of gear, 90% of the world, including you, wouldn't have a use for it but I do. Especially since I really enjoy recording/practicing without a computer monitor in my face.
I don't make my money in life 23 hours a day with a monitor and mouse, but I do love making music without a computer. More and more lately, too. I used to record everything, and during that era, I started developing a very cool flow of recordings. Due to too many changes to mention here, I have to be much more intentional (even much less spontaneous) with recording now, so I am yearning for the process Karbo is enjoying.

Side note...I just came in from outside, and my glasses were still a little foggy as I started catching up on this thread. I thought I was having a cosmic epiphany with the universe confirming what gear I need...Karbo, I read the line "this is a bit of a niche piece of gear" as
"this is a bit of a richie piece of gear".

Karbo: one last question (for now).
If you were not as interested in the SD card features and didn't need the recording part, would you consider something like the Soundcraft Signature MK line a better bet? I know those preamps and eq, and they are quite good. Maybe the Tascam has brilliant preamps and eq.... Or there is no way to answer that because you DO care about the recording part so much and likely have not tried the Soundcraft. I hadn't seriously considered the importance of that SD card feature, but it's sounding more and more like THE thing to consider.
Hmm.

Thanks again, everyone!
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Old 11-29-2021, 04:03 PM   #53
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Karbo: one last question (for now).
I'd have no problem using the Soundcraft. They make great gear, I used to mix on some of their boards years ago, they ain't no slouch, so it kind of comes down to which features you want the most however...

If I were splitting hairs, I'd imagine SC pres are pretty damn classy but as I said pres are kind of hard to screw up unless... they are really, really cheap.

The thing about preamps IMHO, isn't that one sounds fantastic compared to another in perfect nominal signal conditions, but rather how they handle undesirable situations like low-output gear, do they get too noisy when you have to crank them, or if they sound better or worse if you push them into saturation etc.

For contrast, I could walk in the other room, my electronics lab, and build a preamp that would be every bit as good as most any interface, and I'd have more cash tied up in the knobs and XLR connectors than I would the parts to make it work right. Minus the transformers if using those but interfaces and most boards don't use transformers in preamps these days so...
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:45 PM   #54
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The best way to think of it is that the mixer section is like an old school 4-Track, but it's 24 tracks and and has analog compressors at the inputs before the AD converters + connected to a digital recorder + connected to an ASIO interface.
So with nothing else, you could record blocks of 4 tracks at once to an SDHC card, until you hit 24 tracks, where there's a track for every available hardware strip? And I'm guessing you could do things like submix 10 mic inputs to stereo for drums on one of those blocks of four at a time recordings.

Quote:
The ASIO interface can see all 24 inputs (Post AD) and outputs (Pre DA). Here's an off the top of my head list of things one could do...
Multichannel ASIO interface is one I expected.

Quote:
-Set hardware outputs in reaper for tracks or groups that feed each channel on the Tascam mixer, like an analog summing machine.
I can assign up to 20 hardware outputs with my setup, but other than a stereo pair going to my monitor controller, a stereo pair going to my headphone distribution amp, and a stereo pair going to a Behringer audio interface on my Pi4 for pass thru purposes, I haven't needed individual analog outputs. I might one day hook up a permanent output to do re-amping.

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-Set hardware inputs in Reaper and use the Tascam as a recording interface.
That would prolly be the one I'd use.

Quote:
-Use the Tascam as a desert island all-in-one, with the option to move that to reaper (via SD card) at any time.

-Use the Tascam as an all-in-one remote capture machine with basic field mixing abilities before bringing it back home and opening in Reaper.
I could see recording live performances to 4 tracks, especially if you can do stuff like submix a bunch of mics on some drums to mono, leaving the other three tracks for bass, guitar, and vocals or something.

Quote:
-Use the Tascam as a writing scratchpad, like a looper on steroids minus the looping. This is one of my main uses as I really enjoy being able to cut the computer the fk off and track minus PC technology. Due to my day job I proverbially spend 23 out of 24 hours a day with a keyboard and mouse in my hand. Sometimes I want to just create and try things out with the computer 100% out of the picture. I was fully capable of recording and mixing songs before DAWs, it's still possible for me to do that now from time to time.

-Various hybrid combos should one desire.

However, this is a bit of a niche piece of gear, 90% of the world, including you, wouldn't have a use for it but I do. Especially since I really enjoy recording/practicing without a computer monitor in my face.
I use REAPER as my scratchpad. I'm setup so that everything is plugged into the 16 Midas inputs on my two Behringer rack modules 100% of the time so the moment I had an idea, I can be recording it without having to stop and hook something up. That was what the draw for me was. Shorter time between ideas and recording ideas. Get everything plugged in permanently so I never have to put on the engineer hat, and can just keep the musician hat on.
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:09 PM   #55
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So with nothing else, you could record blocks of 4 tracks at once to an SDHC card, until you hit 24 tracks, where there's a track for every available hardware strip? And I'm guessing you could do things like submix 10 mic inputs to stereo for drums on one of those blocks of four at a time recordings.
It has 16 mic pres or 16 mono line ins + 4 stereo line ins. So 24 simultaneous. 16 compressors that compress on the way in to grab peaks (1 for each mic pre). Also has 24 outputs digitally.


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Multichannel ASIO interface is one I expected.
Yes, it's just just like any other multichannel ASIO interface.

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I could see recording live performances to 4 tracks, especially if you can do stuff like submix a bunch of mics on some drums to mono, leaving the other three tracks for bass, guitar, and vocals or something.
When I said 4-Track, I was just referencing that style of machine/old school workflow, the Tascam "24" is a 24 track, 24 input machine.

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I use REAPER as my scratchpad.
I still do at times too and I can be laying tracks in reaper (bass, drums, keys or vox) in 60-120 seconds. I created and made that rule a reality 20 years ago so that's not an issue. As often my pedalboard and loopers in that picture above are my scratch pad so...

It doesn't matter how many controllers someone has, they are gonna have to use that mouse and keyboard and that non-tactile glowing computer screen and I like breaks from that dependency.

Don't get me wrong, I love reaper, I still use reaper. It's my main recording setup and any serious project ends up there, but sometimes, it is super nice, refreshing and inspiring, to just shut the computer down and make music without it. For similar reasons, I never allow computers at my gigs. There is nothing wrong with using them at all!... it's just the separation and diametric opposition between work/play and reduction in complexity that is so relaxing.

The words reboot, crash or update will never be words needed on any of my gigs. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:35 PM   #56
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When I said 4-Track, I was just referencing that style of machine/old school workflow, the Tascam "24" is a 24 track, 24 input machine.
Okay, if it can record 24 tracks in one shot to an SDHC card, that's impressive and would kick ass for live recording.

Quote:
I still do at times too and I can be laying tracks in reaper (bass, drums, keys or vox) in 60-120 seconds. I created and made that rule a reality 20 years ago so that's not an issue. As often my pedalboard and loopers in that picture above are my scratch pad so...

It doesn't matter how many controllers someone has, they are gonna have to use that mouse and keyboard and that non-tactile glowing computer screen and I like breaks from that dependency.

Don't get me wrong, I love reaper, I still use reaper. It's my main recording setup and any serious project ends up there, but sometimes, it is super nice, refreshing and inspiring, to just shut the computer down and make music without it.
I do have a little FLAMMA practice amp that I can plug into when I just want to jam on guitar with no computer, but it's literally inches away from the rack mount tuner that gets me plugged into REAPER through a guitar amp. Usually I use the practice amp to jam around while I'm streaming a movie or something on my monitor.

Quote:
For similar reasons, I never allow computers at my gigs. There is nothing wrong with using them at all!... it's just the separation and diametric opposition between work/play and reduction in complexity that is so relaxing.

The words reboot, crash or update will never be words needed on any of my gigs. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
Hehe, the very last band I played in live, I was coerced to play drums, and they had a computer with a click track that I had to play along with.

The computer ran a very impressive light show, and also would play sparse backing parts like congas, or maybe some horn hits now and then, all sync'd up with the lights. I didn't mind playing to a click or using a computer, but I totally hated getting home at 3:00am or later.
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:44 PM   #57
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Okay, if it can record 24 tracks in one shot to an SDHC card, that's impressive and would kick ass for live recording.
Yea, that's one of my yet untested plans for it. All I have to do is plug the mics we already use into it and send it's output to the powered mixer and hit record. That would function as the recorder and the PA mixer.


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Hehe, the very last band I played in live, I was coerced to play drums, and they had a computer with a click track that I had to play along with.

The computer ran a very impressive light show, and also would play sparse backing parts like congas, or maybe some horn hits now and then, all sync'd up with the lights. I didn't mind playing to a click or using a computer, but I totally hated getting home at 3:00am or later.
I played in a band that ran sequences on keyboard with a click for the drummer for about 4 years. The main thing that I didn't really like was the strictness of being tied to the arrangement in the way we were with that band. I mean a gig is a gig and I did it for that long but I didn't miss it when I moved on either.

I thought about getting some real lights and programming my own thing with a computer and blowing all the other bands away with the presentation, but it would end up being a lot more stuff to carry, arriving earlier and coming home later, more complexity for a gig that is more about relaxing for me that extra work.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:26 PM   #58
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Yea, that's one of my yet untested plans for it. All I have to do is plug the mics we already use into it and send it's output to the powered mixer and hit record. That would function as the recorder and the PA mixer.
I used to take a tiny Asus netbook with a tiny Behringer USB audio interface out to gigs, and the vocalist would bring a pair of Neumann TLM 103s out that we'd put on big booms right over the band to record stereo what we sounded like on stage. Here's a real short clip from one of those recordings.

https://www.soundclick.com/music/son...ongID=14350648


Quote:
I played in a band that ran sequences on keyboard with a click for the drummer for about 4 years. The main thing that I didn't really like was the strictness of being tied to the arrangement in the way we were with that band. I mean a gig is a gig and I did it for that long but I didn't miss it when I moved on either.
I totally agree, and would not have done it that way in a band I had some control in. I can run a mean live light show with my left foot and a programmable DMX board, but that last band had been playing like that and just wanted a drummer who could jump in and instantly start gigging because they had jobs lined up.

When jobs weren't lined up, I used that lull to bow out.

Quote:
I thought about getting some real lights and programming my own thing with a computer and blowing all the other bands away with the presentation, but it would end up being a lot more stuff to carry, arriving earlier and coming home later, more complexity for a gig that is more about relaxing for me that extra work.
In the 80s, I ran the light show with my left foot, and had programmed "scenes" so I could spotlight any player on stage, while dimly lighting the other players. We carried stands and trusses, with lights that looked like a big show, which in some way is what helped us make big enough bucks to support ourselves with music. Even if there was some smoke and mirrors.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:38 PM   #59
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I'd have no problem using the Soundcraft. They make great gear, I used to mix on some of their boards years ago, they ain't no slouch, so it kind of comes down to which features you want the most however...
Yeah. Like I said, before you brought up how handy that SD card is regarding making musc, recording, all without a computer necessary, I was leaning more towards the "classy". But now I can't shake the fact that it sounds great to me.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:52 PM   #60
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In the 80s, I ran the light show with my left foot, and had programmed "scenes" so I could spotlight any player on stage, while dimly lighting the other players. We carried stands and trusses, with lights that looked like a big show, which in some way is what helped us make big enough bucks to support ourselves with music. Even if there was some smoke and mirrors.
I'm too old to deal with it at this point lol. Back in the 80s, we pulled the truck in at 2PM and it took until 6 or 7PM to unload, setup full PA, trusses, par64s and so on. Grab a shower and food and be ready to play from 10PM-2AM. A couple hours to pack it all back up so I'm getting to bed at 5AM minimum.

I also built a real fog machine using a 55 gallon drum and a water heater element. I'd pickup 30 pounds of dry ice from a across town and we'd drop it into the hot water and send the fog through dryer hose. In a small club we could have "the munsters" style fog floating on the floor waste high. You can see some of it below, but I don't know why I only have the outro. However, you get the idea because we kicked off the fog at beginning of the song so we are several minutes in and its still pumping pretty good - this was the 80s though, random vid, I was in my 20s and the video is quite crude...

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Old 11-29-2021, 10:04 PM   #61
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I'm too old to deal with it at this point lol. Back in the 80s, we pulled the truck in at 2PM and it took until 6 or 7PM to unload, setup full PA, trusses, par64s and so on. Grab a shower and food and be ready to play from 10PM-2AM. A couple hours to pack it all back up so I'm getting to bed at 5AM minimum.

I also built a real fog machine using a 55 gallon drum and a water heater element. I'd pickup 30 pounds of dry ice from a across town and we'd drop it into the hot water and send the fog through dryer hose. In a small club we could have "the munsters" style fog floating on the floor waste high. You can see some of it below, but I don't know why I only have the outro. However, you get the idea because we kicked off the fog at beginning of the song so we are several minutes in and its still pumping pretty good - this was the 80s though, random vid, I was in my 20s and the video is quite crude...
I'm in a parallel universe! In the 80s I had an Amiga 2000 with several "Broadcast Quality" special video FX interfaces, and one big production we did with it was a live in my livingroom performance of Comfortably Numb, recorded with lots of computerized special FX, and even a fake MTV logo and commercial at the end.

Cool effect with the dry ice. I went to a party in the 80s where they had a big metal wash tub behind a couch with a block of dry ice sitting in water. The whole house had a foot deep of fog and was lit up only with black lights, so it was reel trippy.

BTW, the keyboard player in the live clip I linked to played in a band with Mike Post of every TeeVee show theme ever created.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:49 AM   #62
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Just wanted to jump into say that until its known that Tascam have fixed the noise issues on the Model 12, I cannot recommend it as a purchase.

The Model 12 has noise issues that the other Model's dont have. Not everyone is reporting this issue, but it would appear there are enough with issues over on the Tascam forum and that Tascam arent publically copping too these issues. Tascam's customer services has been really dire in my experience with this purchase.

Tascam released new firmware that fixed one of the noise issues (related to an EQ on the mixer), but the noise I get on Windows audio makes the mixer unusable as an audio interface for general purpose use and is yet to be fixed or recognised by Tascam.

Thankfully, it 'seems' ok when using ASIO and standalone.

Anyway, the hassle isnt worth the MIDI controller functions trade off, IMHO
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:12 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
With enough dry ice and sketchy enough mixing you can basically miss a gig and nobody would notice. Is that the Charvel mentioned on the forums some time back?
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:15 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeekat View Post
With enough dry ice and sketchy enough mixing you can basically miss a gig and nobody would notice. Is that the Charvel mentioned on the forums some time back?
Ha... Yes, it is that Charvel, I had only had it a year or two at that time (1988'ish)

About 5 years after that, when I switched to full-time bread and butter cover bands (so I could actually get paid - the band above played a few covers to fill out the set in clubs that had mostly original bands) - I switched to Strats because they fit the music being played better than the Charvel. I sold the Charvel to a friend around 2000.
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