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Old 09-06-2018, 12:45 PM   #81
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Karbo, do you mean that in the course of recording a number of takes with the take system, you never have any starts or ends that are off and don't quite line up with the others?
Hi Tod, I'm saying that I can almost always fix them without any issues or aggravation. I usually use ALT+Drag aka slip edit, Robert's scenario is slightly different but... I don't remember that being an issue for me in any quantifiable manner.

Being the oddball that I appear to be here, I think splits are a very underrated feature, they make my job far easier because there are so many ways to exploit them to my advantage - Many see them as roadblocks, I see them as an opportunity the vast majority of the time. I don't only like splits, I add them all the time as part of my take-editing workflow - the problem is that it has become so second nature to me that when I see conversations like this, I don't always remember the details. I can say I spend a lot of time moving splits around with takes collapsed (that's a handy plus not a minus). I pretty much never display takes expanded into multiple lanes and consider doing so inferior.

One day I'm just going to take a full screen video of my entire tracking/editing session so I can better demonstrate just how great this can actually work at least for some of us. Usually, I don't do it because at that time, I'm more interested in getting my work done than forum discussions and put it off for a later time.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:51 PM   #82
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I'm not sure how you get by with using lanes->takes because my experiences have been that this is a good way to end up with takes that are all over the place.
Probably because what I do is very simplistic. I record takes from the beginning of the prj, and once I have enough takes, I go home and comp it. Due to issues I use the tradition splits existing items and create new takes when I need to punch in to overdub something. I'm with you, I really hope this gets some love as I'm sure it could work much better, and bugs ought to be squashed no matter what
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:02 PM   #83
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Julian, are you talking about after the multi take item has been exploded?
No -- while the multi take items are still "imploded", and split into several pieces for comping, you can add stretch markers to align the takes better, or Take envelopes to mute the take**, or Take FX to do a little breath removal, for example.


(**There is an Action to add and activate the Mute envelope on the active take, which can be combined with other actions in a custom action for 1-click muting of unwanted takes.)
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:05 PM   #84
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Being the oddball that I appear to be here, I think splits are a very underrated feature, they make my job far easier because there are so many ways to exploit them to my advantage - Many see them as roadblocks, I see them as an opportunity the vast majority of the time.
If I remember correctly, I once read that Justin isn't eager to change the splitting behavior because he also thinks it works better, and he would like people to try it out.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:08 PM   #85
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If I remember correctly, I once read that Justin isn't eager to change the splitting behavior because he also thinks it works better, and he would like people to try it out.
Interesting, on more than one occasion (in take based threads) I've mentioned that I think that Justin was ahead of the curve with that idea. I can't say it is perfect, nothing is but I do think there is some chance that many are so mentally accustomed to stacked takes and no splits that it can be incredibly difficult to get that light bulb to go off.

If one searches my posting history back far enough, they'll find very similar complaints from me (because I came from similar DAWs myself), then one day it hit me and I haven't looked back since. If I didn't sincerely and truly feel there is value being missed by some worthwhile percentage of users, I wouldn't be investing time in these threads.

The best advice I can offer is that when asking for improvements in the take system, learn what the moving parts are, their proper terminology etc. then work the suggestions off of that foundation. Far too often I see complaints about takes in containers when the improvement being asked is better served in the takes in lanes feature, or about takes when it is better served speaking about comps, or by adding playlists/track versions which to me is a great addition to, not in place of.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:35 PM   #86
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No -- while the multi take items are still "imploded", and split into several pieces for comping, you can add stretch markers to align the takes better, or Take envelopes to mute the take**, or Take FX to do a little breath removal, for example.


(**There is an Action to add and activate the Mute envelope on the active take, which can be combined with other actions in a custom action for 1-click muting of unwanted takes.)
Thanks Julian, I had no idea these things could be done in a multi-take. I read the manual concerning the take system but didn't see any of that mentioned. The manual has actually been my only resource.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:39 PM   #87
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One day I'm just going to take a full screen video of my entire tracking/editing session so I can better demonstrate just how great this can actually work at least for some of us. Usually, I don't do it because at that time, I'm more interested in getting my work done than forum discussions and put it off for a later time.
It would be great, at this point I don't know exactly what you're talking about, or maybe I just don't know how to relate to it.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:57 PM   #88
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One day I'm just going to take a full screen video of my entire tracking/editing session so I can better demonstrate just how great this can actually work at least for some of us.
That would be much appreciated.
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Old 09-06-2018, 06:32 PM   #89
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The most frustrating thing to me is that it takes a single click to set a new take. This is SO dangerous - the possibility for ruining your comp is extremely high just by accidentally clicking on a take when moving the playhead. I've resorted to having to click at the top of the screen (Ableton style) to avoid this, which takes focus away from the items and wastes what could be a great Reaper timesaver. Also the colouring system sometimes makes it less-than-obvious which take is actually active, again making you go back and re-set takes or accidentally ruin your comp.

Setting the active take should ONLY be possible through a modifier-key-plus-click. Something so destructive should not be possible just by left-clicking.
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Old 09-06-2018, 07:12 PM   #90
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The most frustrating thing to me is that it takes a single click to set a new take. This is SO dangerous - the possibility for ruining your comp is extremely high just by accidentally clicking on a take when moving the playhead. I've resorted to having to click at the top of the screen (Ableton style) to avoid this, which takes focus away from the items and wastes what could be a great Reaper timesaver. Also the colouring system sometimes makes it less-than-obvious which take is actually active, again making you go back and re-set takes or accidentally ruin your comp.

Setting the active take should ONLY be possible through a modifier-key-plus-click. Something so destructive should not be possible just by left-clicking.
I agree that it would be nice if locking a "take" prevents selection changes but CTRL+L solves that problem forever in the mean time. IOW, what you just described doesn't exist in my life because I don't keep takes expanded and vulnerable like that.
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Old 09-06-2018, 07:14 PM   #91
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Please see post #20 concerning the problem. Once that makes sense, below is how I do it real world - I left the takes collapsed, because that is how I work. I use "T" to cycle through the takes.

Keep in mind, I did this very slow so whomever can see exactly what I'm doing, if this were a real session, I'd have made this cut/timing/fade fix in about 10 seconds and be evaluating the takes already. Also, other than my misselections, rogue clicking and need to ungroup while hurriedly making a video, it should be self explanatory. Had this been a track in a real mix, I could have done it without the crossfade as that very tiny glitch would have been masked but I went ahead and did the crossfade to make it more perfect regardless. This almost always works on fades (faux-extending them), as I've done it hundreds of times.

Just a side note... IMHO, that late hit is a bad take no matter what, unless we recreate the full fade like I do below, we are just moving the timing problem from the beginning of the measure to the end of it (because when the note stops is as important as when it starts when it comes to rhythm and groove). That's less obtrusive but extending it is likely better if there is an expectation it is 'like' the other two take fades.

I suggest watching it full screen/HD here: https://youtu.be/x_GK_DbwS28



Can someone keep thinking up examples until they find something I can't solve? Of course, but this was the example presented so I assumed it mattered, hence it's the one I addressed - At some point, if we try hard enough, we can find workflows that are better served with one of the other take paradigms in Reaper... FIPM, Takes as layers, Tape Mode and so on....

FWIW, I realized a couple of small tweaks that could be done to "takes as layers" that would solve a lot of problems for people who aren't comfortable working as I did above. If I'm not overlooking anything, they would effectively make takes as layers behave much like Cubendo did when I last used it and I think the payoff is much larger than the work/risk to make the changes. I'll elaborate later if anyone cares.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:38 AM   #92
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Hey Karbo - good band and good recordings!!
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Old 09-07-2018, 04:20 AM   #93
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Karbo, thanks for the video. I think it explains the problem perfectly.

You can't have a small bit of silence after the take you slipped, which in some cases would be a much better fix than a crossfade. And now you have a split+crossfade on all of the takes, whether they need it or not, so you can't simply click to cycle take anymore: you need to select two items first where logically should be only one.

Step outside of the music workflow for a moment and think about voice recording (audiobooks, documentary voice over, etc.): you usually have a bunch of takes that have very different timings. If you want to audition them, this take system is a mess, and a crossfade very often just can't fix the misalignment issue. The only way to handle it is to use a take system that allows to have a bit of silence as part of the take, or don't care about having the takes' edges aligned in the first place.

Robert thinks that suggesting other DAWs' implementations could be detrimental to the discussion, so I won't, but I still think that seeing how other solutions work and how they avoid all these issues is paramount. If all you used in your life is a felling axe, maybe you won't see the point of a chainsaw…

EDIT: Oops, mistyped "Karbo", sorry

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Old 09-07-2018, 05:44 AM   #94
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Karo, thanks for the video. I think it explains the problem perfectly.

You can't have a small bit of silence after the take you slipped, which in some cases would be a much better fix than a crossfade. And now you have a split+crossfade on all of the takes, whether they need it or not, so you can't simply click to cycle take anymore: you need to select two items first where logically should be only one.
The crossfade on all is irrelevant which is precisely why I included the audio, so you can hear that it is irrelevant (if someone asks, I'll elaborate more about why) - at some point you keep one of those takes making it even more irrelevant. I certainly can cycle (with T... clicking to change takes is inefficient), I just didn't regroup as they previously were. Those were three sets of three takes to start with (shall I make a cycling efficiency series? I can because I see many working much harder at it than I )

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Step outside of the music workflow for a moment...
When someone presents an example, I assume that example is one that matters, not then coming up with new ones after I solve it to try discredit it, if so should have presented those the first time around. Do you see where I'm going with this... "Takes suck, I can't do X", "yes you can", "meh but what about Y", rinse and repeat.

The example presented in post 20 was music and explained as not possible, but it is, so that is what I answered to, and I can do it in seconds, it's efficient, it is sonically sound and organized. Personally, I think voiceovers would be even easier but... I did step out of the music workflow if that's what you want to call it at the end of the post...

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At some point, if we try hard enough, we can find workflows that are better served with one of the other take paradigms in Reaper... FIPM, Takes as layers, Tape Mode and so on....

FWIW, I realized a couple of small tweaks that could be done to "takes as layers" that would solve a lot of problems for people who aren't comfortable working as I did above. If I'm not overlooking anything, they would effectively make takes as layers behave much like Cubendo did when I last used it and I think the payoff is much larger than the work/risk to make the changes. I'll elaborate later if anyone cares.
The point is the same, we have to be careful about trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. As I said, there are very small tweaks that can be done to the other take types for your needs but that doesn't make the container based one broken or suck. I can solve most, if not all of these editing issues with what already exists or a handful of FR tweaks but you guys should be making that effort and learning how to exploit the system to your advantage too instead of just saying the system sucks and demanding a complete redesign.
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:05 AM   #95
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The only way to handle it is to use a take system that allows to have a bit of silence as part of the take, or don't care about having the takes' edges aligned in the first place.
But you can! As I mentioned in previous posts, one of REAPER's most powerful features is its ability to apply all kinds of editing to individual takes.
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:29 AM   #96
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But you can! As I mentioned in previous posts, one of REAPER's most powerful features is its ability to apply all kinds of editing to individual takes.
Sorry, "to handle it in a convenient and non-workflow-disrupting way".
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:51 AM   #97
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When someone presents an example, I assume that example is one that matters, not then coming up with new ones after I solve it to try discredit it, if so should have presented those the first time around. Do you see where I'm going with this... "Takes suck, I can't do X", "yes you can", "meh but what about Y", rinse and repeat.

The example presented in post 20 was music and explained as not possible, but it is, so that is what I answered to, and I can do it in seconds, it's efficient, it is sonically sound and organized. Personally, I think voiceovers would be even easier but... I did step out of the music workflow if that's what you want to call it at the end of the post...
I wasn't the one presenting the original example. Presenting a counter-example where your solution doesn't work is important exactly because it shows that your solution makes assumptions that aren't always met. Presenting a workaround that solves the issue only in the exact same situation of the example is not going to go very far as a general solution. I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm trying to show you why a workaround is not a good way to solve this issue.

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The point is the same, we have to be careful about trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. As I said, there are very small tweaks that can be done to the other take types for your needs but that doesn't make the container based one broken or suck.
If implementing an alternative take system starting from the existing free-moving-items feature is the way to go, great! I'll gladly have both methods! I think nobody here wants the current take system to disappear. But some of us need something else, something that at the moment Reaper is not offering, not natively, not with scripts, not with workarounds.

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I can solve most, if not all of these editing issues with what already exists or a handful of FR tweaks […]
Good, let's see that. You showed your take on one issue, and I explained you the limits of your solution, and you complained that I changed the example. Still 19 issues to go.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:11 AM   #98
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I wasn't the one presenting the original example. Presenting a counter-example where your solution doesn't work is important exactly because it shows that your solution makes assumptions that aren't always met. Presenting a workaround that solves the issue only in the exact same situation of the example is not going to go very far as a general solution. I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm trying to show you why a workaround is not a good way to solve this issue.
A) What I demonstrated isn't a workaround B) You aren't picking on me but there is a bigger picture here, this isn't the first time I've done this, it's been a different scenario each time and I usually solve them while others see what they think is an obstacle and give up. No I can't solve every one someone can dream up, we could play that game with any DAW if you think about it. The system isn't perfect but it isn't completely broken either.

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If implementing an alternative take system starting from the existing free-moving-items feature is the way to go, great! I'll gladly have both methods!
Absolutely but most don't show up here with those suggestions, they instead blame the container based takes.

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Good, let's see that. You showed your take on one issue, and I explained you the limits of your solution, and you complained that I changed the example. Still 19 issues to go.
No, I'm not talking about his 19 issues as some of those are bugs etc. or valid in some way (I even have a few of my own gripes). Those need to be fixed and kudos to Robert for some of those because he has been more specific than about 99% of users presenting complaints - it's one of the things I like about him actually. I'm not wild about the broad brush "reaper takes suck" title because I'm confident that is an inaccurate assessment that does more harm than good - this also causes those who are new to the system to assume it's sucks right out of the gate and not even try.

I'm addressing what was presented as an example in issue #10 (post #20) which happens to cover a lot of scenarios and I only covered the one presented because it was the one presented - it could have been a similar scenario but slightly different than a late note/short fade, and I'd have chosen one of the other proverbial 50 tricks up my sleeve to address it, so don't hyperfocus on the single method I chose for that example.

I'm happy to solve a few to hopefully inspire someone somewhere, but I can't sit here while people try to find example, after example, after example and solve each one - that unfairly puts work on me to demonstrate what I already know/learned that others don't seem to care to do for their own benefit.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:13 AM   #99
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But you can! As I mentioned in previous posts, one of REAPER's most powerful features is its ability to apply all kinds of editing to individual takes.
Sorry, "to handle it in a convenient and non-workflow-disrupting way".
This is very vague, and I don't understand -- what is inconvenient or disruptive about REAPER's take editing features? Inserting a take envelope or a take FX or a stretch marker into one take of a multi-take item is just as easy as doing it to a track or a single-take item.


Quote:
The only way to handle it is to use a take system that allows to have a bit of silence as part of the take, or don't care about having the takes' edges aligned in the first place. [...]
You can't have a small bit of silence after the take you slipped, which in some cases would be a much better fix than a crossfade. And now you have a split+crossfade on all of the takes, whether they need it or not, so you can't simply click to cycle take anymore: you need to select two items first where logically should be only one.
Karbo demonstrated one possible approach. Alternatively, if you prefer silence, just add a mute envelope to that area of the take (leftdrag + click); if you prefer to extend the decay of the preceding note, add one or two stretch markers to the take and stretch the decay to the edge of the take (click+click+leftdrag). Easy peasy!
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:21 AM   #100
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I've been reading the thread, but I'm extremely busy.

I am going to reply to the "How would you expect it to work" requests soon. Later tonight or tomorrow.

I appreciate the discussion. It's interesting to see what other folks think about this.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:36 AM   #101
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I am going to reply to the "How would you expect it to work" requests soon.
I will probably have taken another thread break by then but I have always thought ^that is the crux right there, expectations and assumptions vs learning how to exploit it's existing strengths. People tend to get uncomfortable and stop at that juncture. I think slightly less rigidity with expectations would go a long way and make users more successful.

It's the very reason that when I entered this thread, I approached it from a final result perspective rather than how I 'expect' to get there perspective. The main caveat is if the expectation is more efficient or less accident prone etc., but IME that isn't always the case and as many times the expectation is less efficient at scale but desired due to familiarity. YMMV.

Kenny had a truly excellent explanation of this about Reaper a couple years ago, but I simply don't know where it is or I'd post the link.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:39 AM   #102
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A) What I demonstrated isn't a workaround
Then we must have different definitions of "workaround", because you end up having crossfades that you wouldn't need on perfectly good takes, or fixing a misaligned take with a crossfade when you'd better - maybe - have silence.

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The system isn't perfect but it isn't completely broken either.
So we agree! What we ask here is: let's try to move toward "perfect", instead of settling for "not completely broken".

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[…] most don't show up here with those suggestions
I'm not a developer, and even if I were, Reaper is not open source. In any case, I don't know what would be the best way to adress the issues. What I can do is expose those issues.

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they instead blame the container based takes.
If showing the issues and shortcomings of the container based takes system is "blaming", yes, I suppose you're right.

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I'm happy to solve a few to hopefully inspire someone somewhere, but I can't sit here while people try to find example, after example, after example and solve each one - that unfairly puts work on me to demonstrate what I already know/learned that others don't seem to care to do for their own benefit.
I didn't "unfairly put work on you" to demonstrate anything, but if you say "here's the solution for issue #10", I think I have all the right to say "no, it doesn't solve #10 properly and here's why with a real world example that took less than one second to think of". If it's so much "work" for you to demonstrate a general solution, then maybe the issue is real?

Again, I don't understand this "let's settle for not-completely-broken" attitude. Why is asking for betterment so actively fought?

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I don't understand -- what is inconvenient or disruptive about REAPER's take editing features?
You don't understand anything of Robert's excellent first few posts?
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:41 AM   #103
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I don't have the time to go over this thread with a fine tooth comb, so forgive me if I've missed something.

In Logic, the cursor locks to your loop selection. So effectively, these things can't happen: different length pieces being reconciled to a loop selection.

In other words, Logic forces you into "good practices", and Reaper allows you to effectively break it.

I know this kind of stuff happens if I decide to jump into the middle of a loop selection as my start or end point, so I try not to do it by reselecting the portion of a previous take I want to play over, instead of leaving the loop selection as is and positioning the cursor to a different point.

The one thing that sticks out to me (because I don't run into the other issues - it just doesn't happen in my workflow) is having empty takes leftover, which Logic treats as "incomplete" and simply deletes them. That would be a nice option to set in Reaper, BUT being *Reaper* it saves them in case that little bit you played out over the last (incomplete) repeat turns out to be something you want saved as a "take".

The Logic default of taking the initiative to not leave an empty take is tidier. But at the same time, Logic is also forcing your work flow to conform more rigidly than Reaper.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:46 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by emarsk View Post
You don't understand anything of Robert's excellent first few posts?
Have *you* read any of my posts?

Are you here to constructively contribute to the thread, or simply to complain while willfully ignoring advice? In case of the latter, please go to the lounge subforum.

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Old 09-07-2018, 08:47 AM   #105
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The one thing that sticks out to me (because I don't run into the other issues - it just doesn't happen in my workflow) is having empty takes leftover, which Logic treats as "incomplete" and simply deletes them. That would be a nice option to set in Reaper, BUT being *Reaper* it saves them in case that little bit you played out over the last (incomplete) repeat turns out to be something you want saved as a "take".
reaper does this as well, added in 5.17
+ Recording: add option for discard incomplete take threshold
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:12 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
Have *you* read any of my posts?

Are you here to constructively contribute to the thread, or simply to complain while willfully ignoring advice? In case of the latter, please go to the lounge subforum.
FWIW, I have read your posts and I think you've made some good points.

I don't agree with some of the things you've implied, but hopefully I can present something that will answer a couple questions you asked and maybe I can clarify some of emarsk's points as well.

hopefully.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:30 AM   #107
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Then we must have different definitions of "workaround", because you end up having crossfades that you wouldn't need on perfectly good takes, or fixing a misaligned take with a crossfade when you'd better - maybe - have silence.
We do because in any situation, we have tools we use to get the job at hand done; choosing one that works doesn't make it a workaround but rather different than your initial expectation. I thought I made it clear why I chose to extend the fade instead of use silence.

As far as the crossfade, that is a self-imposed mental block for lack of a better term. I'm not going to elaborate right now but that crossfade of the "good takes" is merely a visual illusion.

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So we agree! What we ask here is: let's try to move toward "perfect", instead of settling for "not completely broken".
We can learn the totality of all the moving parts, *then choose the right FR for the right type of the take system. I do think Robert is doing a decent job here other than my occasional nitpick from my knowledge of the system and the occasional embellisment.

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I didn't "unfairly put work on you" to demonstrate anything, but if you say "here's the solution for issue #10", I think I have all the right to say "no, it doesn't solve #10 properly and here's why with a real world example that took less than one second to think of". If it's so much "work" for you to demonstrate a general solution, then maybe the issue is real?
That wasn't directed at you and the actual solution of that edit wasn't "work" at all - I'm sorry but you are inventing that - the unfair comment is a reflection of how someone will say "but X!" and I'll solve it because presenting it implies a desire to solve it, then that isn't (understandably) good enough because of "Y" and then I have to chase that one which becomes more of a "let's stump karbo" exercise/debate (even if unintentional) - I want to help but don't have that kind of free time - *There will however, be a point where one of the other take types is warranted.


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Again, I don't understand this "let's settle for not-completely-broken" attitude. Why is asking for betterment so actively fought?
No one in this thread said that in any form that I know of and I haven't fought anything but the things I know can be solved that are presented as "sucks". I specifically called out issue #10 and applauded some of the other issues three times now.

*The really important point is that if someone truly needs splits in their take stack that aren't congruent etc. then the containerized takes is not the thing to change because it is built around a particular framework - request changes in the other methods if you need that - you'll be far more successful IMHO.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:25 AM   #108
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*The really important point is that if someone truly needs splits in their take stack that aren't congruent etc. then the containerized takes is not the thing to change because it is built around a particular framework - request changes in the other methods if you need that - you'll be far more successful IMHO.
I believe that's what I did personally, with my proposed solution.

Do you think that I was ineffective in communicating that? If so, I want to make sure my next attempt here is presented slightly differently.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:36 AM   #109
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I believe that's what I did personally, with my proposed solution.

Do you think that I was ineffective in communicating that? If so, I want to make sure my next attempt here is presented slightly differently.
No, not at all and hope I didn't imply that by straying into my thoughts about take complaints that may not be directly from this thread - my apologies.



While we are at it, something I think (I could be wrong) would solve a large number of needs is these two simple FRs possibly combined into one fix concerning "takes as layers"

1. Add an option to remove those incredibly frustrating auto cross fades when you try to edit/split/move items. This would allow a lot of freedom for edit needs discussed in this thread. I don't think that currently possible is it?

2. Make those layers behave like video tracks already do which is the bottommost item at the cursor position is audible. Meaning that if you had takes 4 layers deep and various sections sliced and dice in a comping fashion, the one that appears on bottom is the one that is heard and the others not - that's how Cubase does (or used to) do it. That may be difficult to conceptualize if not familiar, if not let me know and I'll create a visual mockup it and/or #1.

To be thorough, there is an option in video prefs to use bottommost or topmost but I like bottommost for audio as a personal pref. I think implementing those two would help out a lot of people and I think the payoff is much larger than the work needed to make it happen assuming I'm not missing anything. On the surface, I think this is a simple tweak of existing code.

Edit: I missed one... keep the takes on the same layer when splitting.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:44 AM   #110
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No one in this thread said that in any form that I know of and I haven't fought anything but the things I know can be solved that are presented as "sucks". I specifically called out issue #10 and applauded some of the other issues three times now.
You're right, my apologies. This thread is going well so far. I've read and been involved in other threads about this and other FRs that got bashed with no better reason than "I don't need this, so don't you", and frustration took the best of me.

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
*The really important point is that if someone truly needs splits in their take stack that aren't congruent etc. then the containerized takes is not the thing to change because it is built around a particular framework - request changes in the other methods if you need that - you'll be far more successful IMHO.
I think nobody cares whether the solution comes from tweaking the current take system or from a completely different direction, as long as we end up having something that works. Currently, this is the take system we have (I'm very reluctant to count extra tracks or manually muting/unmuting free-moving items as a "take system") so it's only natural that we address that. IIRC, FRs for different methods have been written elsewhere, but they have been dismissed because we already have a take system that some people love, so it's a bit of a catch 22.

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Old 09-07-2018, 10:55 AM   #111
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I thinks nobody cares whether the solution comes from tweaking the current take system or from a completely different direction, as long as we end up having something that works. Currently, this is the take system we have (I'm very reluctant to count extra tracks or manually muting/unmuting free-moving items as a "take system") so it's only natural that we address that. IIRC, FRs for different methods have been written elsewhere, but they have been dismissed because we already have a take system that some people love, so it's a bit of a catch 22.
Well let me say first that I empathize and I do have sincere concern that everyone be able to work with takes well - and even if we butt heads a little, I appreciate the civility and discussion.

I happen to know so many tricks for containerized takes that you are correct, I love it, for me they are a complete pleasure to work with 99% of the time and second nature at this point - I do hit the occasional corner case but the percentage is low enough that when I hit one and do need a real workaround that it doesn't add up to anything significant but that's just my situation. I should also be clear that my main resistance to changing the container system is about those who need misaligned splits - that's so far outside the foundation of that system's inherent design code wise, I simply think that's a technical dead end.

I also understand there are some editing needs that it may not be a good fit for, but I do have some confidence that if we all work together that there are some simple FRs for the other methods that will gravitate people too them. Like the one I just proposed above as one example, I think it could potentially help a lot of users with little fuss - mainly because it is almost identical to the system I previously used before Reaper and I kind of hated losing it at the time (until I learned the container system I use now).
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Old 09-07-2018, 11:24 AM   #112
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1. Add an option to remove those incredibly frustrating auto cross fades when you try to edit/split/move items. This would allow a lot of freedom for edit needs discussed in this thread. I don't think that currently possible is it?
It's amazing what you can find by typing "auto crossfade" into the Action List... :P

Quote:
2. Make those layers behave like video tracks already do which is the bottommost item at the cursor position is audible. Meaning that if you had takes 4 layers deep and various sections sliced and dice in a comping fashion, the one that appears on bottom is the one that is heard and the others not - that's how Cubase does (or used to) do it. That may be difficult to conceptualize if not familiar, if not let me know and I'll create a visual mockup it and/or #1.
This is roughly how item lanes behave if you set the item mix behavior to "Replace" in Project Settings -> Advanced. It ends up being a pain in this case though because you have to manage item grouping yourself, have multiple tracks that need to stay synced gets even worse, etc.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:10 PM   #113
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Save me the digging since I've moved on to other things for the day...

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It's amazing what you can find by typing "auto crossfade" into the Action List... :P
Yes, found it, that works thanks! Is there one to stop it from dropping to a new lane when splitting? It treats that as if they overlapped when they don't or I overlooked something. An action allows moving it back but it should stay for this ask.

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This is roughly how item lanes behave if you set the item mix behavior to "Replace" in Project Settings -> Advanced. It ends up being a pain in this case though because you have to manage item grouping yourself, have multiple tracks that need to stay synced gets even worse, etc.
So far, I think it should be as described, if we turn it into multiple steps then I don't think we make any progress here for those in need. I tried to do a quick test but I don't think the above is what we're asking.

IOW, as I split and move takes post record, the purple parts below are what play audio, any take above another take isn't heard, unless you expose it via split, move etc... Just pretend there is an imaginary play head pointing up from the bottom of the track. That's how video 'tracks' work, here we want the same with take items when in separate lanes - it relieves what makes this unusable for this purpose as is, all the manual muting and splitting just to hear what you want etc.:

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Old 09-07-2018, 07:48 PM   #114
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This is the post which I first replied to, since I didn't understand how the problem relates to REAPER's take system, or how Robert would ideally prefer the slip editing to work at the right edge of the take (should silence be inserted?).

I've done some thinking, and I think it all boils down to this question, at least for issue #10.

I was making some fancy animation, but I don't think it's necessary. I can demonstrate what I'd like to happen using Reaper itself.


https://imgur.com/aB0vzim (open the image fully. It has black text, and imgur shows it on a black background)

As drawn, this would be totally possible with Reaper's lane system. It would need the following changes:
  • Lanes are "Sticky" so an item can stay in a lane like FIPM, despite how it's split
  • Lane order is configurable (most recent on top, name on top, solod on top, etc..)
  • Action to "prioritize" a lane, so it is the only lane played for a period of time
  • Action to cycle between which lane is prioritized for a given period of time
  • Mouse modifier to click-drag to split and 'prioritize' a lane.
  • Easy method to mutually exclusive solo lanes for auditioning

I can already emulate this in Reaper, but it takes a lot of extra actions to do and it's error-prone.

The other issue is that items can't be stuck to lanes. If an item is the only thing in a lane, then it takes up the whole lane unless you FIPM everything. It's a complete hassle.

None of this idea takes away from the awesome features existing in Reaper like take FX, take envelopes, cycle recording, etc..

Even from there the existing take system would supplement this greatly. You could still use the existing takes for renders, alternates and the like.

(Thanks to Lokasenna for giving me some ideas regarding this.)
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:56 PM   #115
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I'd also like to point out that of the things I listed in the OP, I think #3, #4 and #6 are cause the most problems.

The extra splits and inconsistent take switching can make for a total and utter mess unless you are using the absolute simplest take setup (loop recorded).

I hate to say it, but "other DAWs" handle these situations nicely without having a bunch of splits or making you do micro edits for any place that takes overlap. Everything is treated similar to the way Reaper treats lanes, except with a 'master' track that has priority for playback.

I could almost say that if there weren't all those splits created in various situations, and that switching takes put the take in place totally, wherever it is, the whole system could be workable for anyone.... minus the bugs.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:27 PM   #116
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One thing I personally don't like about the take system is it's use of splits over the methods other DAWs use. I find it a lot more intuitive and useful to be able to select sections independently of the timeline, so if you're doing a particularly hard part (the traditional reason to screw up a take), or complex section, you can audition various edits of various takes without restricting it to the same punch in and out spot. Add on not really being able to use takes to audition different grooves very effectively.

Sorry Robert, I don't necessarily agree with the contention that looking at other DAWs and the way they do it is somehow counter productive. If a system works and is fast, and is possible to implement, then why not compare? I think the way Reaper does it is interesting, (in a track, movable etc.) I don't think a split / selection based approach is interesting or anything more than really really antiquated. Bugs... That take names change is a bug IMO, a coded by accident bug.

I think Reaper is miles above the rest in so many areas that it would be fantastic if Cockos took a look around and saw how much faster and easier it is to work with take comping in DP, Pro Tools etc. etc. I can deal with it mainly because I'm mostly just recording guitar and vocals as direct audio into Reaper, I would rather not think about having to use it as it stands for drums etc.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:15 AM   #117
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reaper does this as well, added in 5.17
+ Recording: add option for discard incomplete take threshold
Ahg, I think I knew that, this has not been a Reaper centric year for me.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:36 AM   #118
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Issue #1 - Take Numbers Incorrect

With 2 takes, one of which is not the same length as the other, empty takes are created.
I actually think this is a fantastic feature, since the empty takes that REAPER automagically adds, keep the takes aligned across the split items. (Although, I would have preferred silence rather than empty takes.)


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Issue #2 - Take Switching is inconsistent

This can cause strange desyncing of takes across a performance. When combined with Issue #4, this can be disasterous!
I agree that this is inconsistent. When "Allow selecting empty take lanes" is switched on, it should also apply when takes are not shown in lanes.


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Issue #3 - Recording over item splits creates splits in takes

If decide that the first take was fine, it requires multiple switching of takes with mouse clicks.

Issue #4 - Switching Multiple overlapping split takes with shortcut is "broken"
As you mentioned, there is an action "Activate take under mouse" that can be swiped across the items, but it may miss tiny items.

A mouse modifier action "Activate same numbered take in all selected items" would be useful, and can perhaps be assigned to some double-click mouse modifier. (Of course, it is also easy to write such a script.)


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Issue #5 - Determining the active empty take is impossible. the currently active empty take is not visually identified. Only the "Take n/x" indicates this. This makes visually recognizing the current take selection impossible.
This probably depends on the theme and Preferences. In my theme, active empty takes are prominently identifiable. In particular, go to Theme Tweaker -> Draw colored bar on active media item take.


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Issue #6 - "Options: Show empty take lanes (align takes by recording pass)" creates a mess.

- All settings default except
- OFF Options: Show empty take lanes (align takes by recording pass)
Yep, this is what happens when that option is switched OFF. Rather keep it on.


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Issue #8 - Comps do not load properly depending on "Options: Show all takes in lanes (when room)" state
Comps don't play nice with empty takes, even when takes are displayed in lanes. This is probably a bug that should be reported, if others haven't already. (And one more reason to prefer muted takes over empty takes.)


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Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
Issue #11 - Implode takes does not work unless all items are the same length
Perhaps we should submit a FR for smarter, "vertical" imploding, so that implode and explode are nicely symmetric:
* All items keep their horizontal positions.
* As long as all the items' edges are aligned -- as they should be after exploding across tracks -- no new splits need to be added.
* If the edges are misaligned, splits can be inserted so that each of the original items' edges falls on a split.
* Empty takes are inserted into holes.

At present I would do this by simply making a time selection across the items and gluing them all (which inserts silence into the holes in each track), before imploding. The disadvantage is that the original splits are lost.

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Old 09-08-2018, 09:51 AM   #119
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I could almost say that if there weren't all those splits created in various situations, and that switching takes put the take in place totally, wherever it is, the whole system could be workable for anyone.... minus the bugs.
Indeed, I think everyone will be delighted with a new option to record without splitting.

But what should happen outside the recorded area? In other threads, most users seem to support the proposal that silence should be inserted.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:23 AM   #120
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I could almost say that if there weren't all those splits created in various situations, and that switching takes put the take in place totally, wherever it is, the whole system could be workable for anyone.... minus the bugs.
If that is outside the container-based takes, I agree. For two reasons...

1) Container based takes are item-based and the container is the item and the splits are of the item/container (not the takes) from an underlying design perspective, that is the core/foundation design part I mentioned before. If we change that, then it sort of just becomes one of the other take types.

2) If there are 50 reasons people hate those splits (in containers), very few if any apply to me, so I don't want that current method disappearing as it is massively useable for 99% of my workflows. IOW, at this point I want those splits through all takes and I want all the extra splits as they offer me as many advantages as disadvantages to others.
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