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Old 09-16-2020, 12:34 PM   #1
mtrn
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Default With Source/Destination editing mode, REAPER would be so beautiful

Hello,

It would be so cool to have the Source/Destination editing mode in REAPER.
Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-j3jblSfQ

I am working for pro podacst, and I would be happy to have this function. Just great if you can ever go there.
For exemple, in SEQUOIA, all shortuctus are here (with CTRL and SHIFT command):https://images.app.goo.gl/fmHJB9sKA9y8myjeA. It's very impressive workflow. Please !

I'm doing the keyboard editing of a complex podcast with 10 calvier keys, it's really interesting. It would also be interesting for music because it is very creative; you can easily follow a score.

Thank you. Best !

Math

Last edited by mtrn; 09-16-2020 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:24 PM   #2
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There is a user called Jonathan Cohler, who has written an extensive set of scripts called Cohler Classical, which provides (among other things) S-D editing.

Be warned, it is not cheap (although compared to Sequoia it is!!) and costs considerably more than Reaper itself.

Also, Mr Cohler's confrontational attitude has not endeared him to many users of this forum.

But with those warnings in mind, look up Cohler Classical (on this forum) and see if it works for you.

Andy
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Old 09-18-2020, 01:42 AM   #3
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Having tried the Cohler scripts, we found it unsuitable as it completely changes the config, menus and key-commands and caused us too much friction in adopting it. Its clear that it has taken a largeamount of work to put together and I am sure some folks will find it of great use.

Would really like to see some additional native features that support 3 and four point editing, as well as a solution to the need for something like Track-Versions or Playlists to allow us to have multiple source takes stacked on top of each other as sources.
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
There is a user called Jonathan Cohler, who has written an extensive set of scripts called Cohler Classical, which provides (among other things) S-D editing.

Be warned, it is not cheap (although compared to Sequoia it is!!) and costs considerably more than Reaper itself.

Also, Mr Cohler's confrontational attitude has not endeared him to many users of this forum.

But with those warnings in mind, look up Cohler Classical (on this forum) and see if it works for you.

Andy
FYI, Cohler Classical is definitely NOT simply a "set of scripts". It is an entire application built on top of REAPER including about 10,000 lines of code at this point.

It is in use all over the world by organizations such as the London Philharmonia, at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, the Pittsburgh Symphony, engineers, studios, and many musicians.

It brings complete multi-track track-group editing to REAPER. It is designed for people doing to multi-track track-group editing, not for people doing assembly editing, which is fundamentally a single-track process. So if you are doing click-track stuff, that's single track editing and assembly.

If you record multiple acoustic microphones simultaneously, then you need Cohler Classical.

It is VERY inexpensive at $125 for personal license and $250 for a business license (5 to 20 times less expensive than any other software with even a fraction of the functionality).

If you want a demo contact me at info@cohlerclassical.com or check out the thirty or more videos HERE. For a quick 5-minute overview of the functionality try this video.

You can also download a free, full-functional 14-day trial HERE.
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:58 PM   #5
Meo-Ada Mespotine
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@cohler
C'mon, this is a feature request, not an advertising space.
It's ok to link to your application for interested users but advertisement unrelated to the FR is not ok.

@mtrn
Can't watch the video due really bad internet over here :/ , so could you explain what source/destination edit is?
Just a general explanation so I can get the broad idea behind it.
Thank you
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Old 09-20-2020, 11:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine View Post
@mtrn
Can't watch the video due really bad internet over here :/ , so could you explain what source/destination edit is?
Just a general explanation so I can get the broad idea behind it.
Thank you
This explains it pretty well:

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...88&postcount=5
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:11 AM   #7
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Ah, yes this sounds really neat!

The editing itself should be easy to do as a script but the crossfade editor could be the challenge.

+1, even if it's only improvements in the crossfade editor of Reaper so we could write that properly.
The current crossfades are probably not enough for the desired control over it, as I think that you may need "paintable" crossfades, to emphasize important parts in the crossfade. This could allow better seamless integration of the pasted part into the performance of the destination.
The more or less linear ones currently in Reaper aren't sufficient for that, I think.


Again, +1 for that.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:27 AM   #8
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I don't understand how this is drastically different from ripple editing.. especially if you group all your takes/items together... Or maybe you implode all the recordings into one item (or a few for organizational purposes) and then turn on play all takes. if each channel is it's own 64 channel DAW, then why not take advantage of it?

I'm not arguing against it, just don't really understand it... so please enlighten me.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:52 AM   #9
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It's faster, as you don't need to drag stuff around time and again.
You select 4 points and run the action.

You could, for instance, select the source part with a region called "source" and the target part with a region called "target" and Reaper would virtually cut out the sourceregion-part and replace the targetregion part in one go.
Especially when you need to do this thousands of times during one session, you want to avoid manual steps like dragging around as much as possible.
Or things become tedious.

My regions example would only be one way to do it globally on all tracks.
I can imagine usecases for individual tracks where automatic stretching could be useful too, to only replace some instruments(with stretching to close possible gaps), while keeping the rest unaltered. This wouldn't be possible with my regions approach that easy.

And in any case, Reaper's current fade-options are not enough to really make that work. You have a limited amount of crossfade-shapes but you probably want to have more control over it. This isn't possible in Reaper any good for the usecases S/D-editing shall allow, so you can only do heavy editing or drawing volume envelopes by hand.
Which is again, tedious.

Imagine a project with hundreds of tracks. Everything that makes working with them easier or sometimes possible at all is beneficial.

"Normal" users probably don't need that, as Ripple can be enough for them. But users with huge projects and very detailed editing needs would benefit from this.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine View Post
It's faster, as you don't need to drag stuff around time and again.
You select 4 points and run the action.

You could, for instance, select the source part with a region called "source" and the target part with a region called "target" and Reaper would virtually cut out the sourceregion-part and replace the targetregion part in one go.
Especially when you need to do this thousands of times during one session, you want to avoid manual steps like dragging around as much as possible.
Or things become tedious.

My regions example would only be one way to do it globally on all tracks.
I can imagine usecases for individual tracks where automatic stretching could be useful too, to only replace some instruments(with stretching to close possible gaps), while keeping the rest unaltered. This wouldn't be possible with my regions approach that easy.

And in any case, Reaper's current fade-options are not enough to really make that work. You have a limited amount of crossfade-shapes but you probably want to have more control over it. This isn't possible in Reaper any good for the usecases S/D-editing shall allow, so you can only do heavy editing or drawing volume envelopes by hand.
Which is again, tedious.

Imagine a project with hundreds of tracks. Everything that makes working with them easier or sometimes possible at all is beneficial.

"Normal" users probably don't need that, as Ripple can be enough for them. But users with huge projects and very detailed editing needs would benefit from this.
Thank you! That was very helpful.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:19 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine View Post
@cohler
C'mon, this is a feature request, not an advertising space.
It's ok to link to your application for interested users but advertisement unrelated to the FR is not ok.
@Meo-Ada Mespotine
C'mon, I was responding directly and specifically to statements and questions raised. Harassment is not OK.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:19 AM   #12
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Having tried the Cohler scripts, we found it unsuitable as it completely changes the config, menus and key-commands and caused us too much friction in adopting it. Its clear that it has taken a largeamount of work to put together and I am sure some folks will find it of great use.
Of course, Cohler Classical changes the menus and key-commands and many other things, because it is customized for Source-Destination editing. If it didn't make those changes, it wouldn't be a Source Destination editor.

That said, REAPER allows customization of virtually everything, and that is THE major benefit of REAPER over all other DAWs.

The learning curve for using Cohler Classical, however, is extremely short, and beyond numerous audio professional users, we have professional musicians all over the world who have never used a DAW in their lives and who are up and running editing music on CC in one day!

Can't get much faster and easier than that!

We would love to give you a demo at some point, Tony @tdc, because you did indeed install a trial license of CC for a few days, but you never got in touch about a demo.

We guarantee that we can have you up, running, and productively editing in a matter of minutes.

FYI, there's another feature of REAPER called "Portable Install" which allows you to have multiple installations of REAPER on one machine, and each one can have TOTALLY different configuration. This allows you to have the menus and keys the way you like for your NON Source-Destination editing projects, and the optimized CC menus for Source Destination editing both simultaneously. You can literally application switch between two, three, or more REAPER configurations with a single keystroke.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:57 PM   #13
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Thanks Jonathan, noted.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:11 PM   #14
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Thank you for your posts, I'm glad the topic speaks to you. Thanks Cohler for your work, I'll try your code. I watched the presentation video; your work seems crazy, well done. It is almost too evolved for my wish Have you ever discussed with COCKOS for a native implementation? It is important for me to work natively because I have part of my work with NGOs who have no money to buy equipment and I cannot install anything other than REAPER on the workstations. Thanks Meo-Ada Mespotine, the process is indeed this one.

At the moment, I am working on a recording session for France Culture (French national radio) where we have 12 hours of recording of actors, all linked to a paper script with time line markers. The use of the Source / Destination I am using is simple, I like it in its workflow (we are talking about 3-point editing). I say simple because I do not use the vertical comparison of the takes, I stay in horizontal. And I wouldn't want the method to be too "geeky", too "technical" because I have to teach it to a lot of different people (for example: I need to work on a single project). In radio fiction, the actors are not at the click, so the reading of the waveform is done more compared to the paper script than vertically (as the "real" source destination editing mode).

Here in particular I am working with two stereo tracks. I define two tracks as being able to be source destination at the same time. The recording starts from the beginning of the session until the end of the recording. Following that, on the same two tracks, I set a marker for "Episode N01" for example. Action: I put an IN DESTINATION POINT. I am at a rather high zoom factor for pleasant waveform reading. Action: I will directly (with the same zoom factor) search for a marker for the take that I spotted while recording. I isolate a part with an IN SOURCE POINT and an OUT POINT SOURCE. Action: I perform an INSERT or an INSERT WITH RIPPLE. Action: go to the IN DESTINATION POINT. Always with the same horizontal zoom ratio, the fluidity of work is exemplary. Action: I return to the IN SOURCE POINT to choose another part of the assembly. And so on.
I have been doing this job for a long time, I can tell you that it is a formidable technique and that it would be great to see this function in REAPER. We are really talking here about a relationship to virtual editing, that is to say that we never touch the structure of the recording. It's really cool.

Indeed Cohler, the production team very quickly captured the logic and could not do without it now. It becomes for me just essential for many applications. I hear myself say in the corridors to my colleagues: "Ah since I learned this technique in SEQUOIA, I finally found a weak point in REAPER". It makes them laugh because they know that I really like REAPER.

The fact that the TRIM EDITOR is not fully developed in REAPER doesn't bother me too much. Usually, for the work I do, my ears are enough for me. I don't do classical music, I work with the voice of the actors and the sounds of the city, I have the right to crossfade without problems.

I'm trying to get you quick screenshots as well as a video of the workflow. Thanks for reading me.

An example of shortcuts in Sequoia with following actions (3 points SD editing):

CTRL+HOME = Set In Source Point
Space for Playback = Choice of material
CTRL+END = Set Out Source Point
END = Go to end of project
SHIFT+HOME = Set In Destination Point
F9 = Insert / F10 = Insert with Ripple
CTRL+SHIFT+PAGE UP = Go to Soucre Points
CTRL+SHIT+PAGE DOWN = Go to Destination Points

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Old 09-27-2020, 01:51 PM   #15
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:12 AM   #16
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while i know it only from videos, but comparing it to f.e. pyramix, i think cohlers work is really well thought out.


i think the feature request should actually be the ability to divide the arrangement screen / project window horizontally.
so you can have one project on top and the other on the bottom, so you have the ability to see 2 timelines at the same time.

the rest (s/d-editing) can be easily done with scripts.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:06 AM   #17
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Here is what I have been using to achieve a fast and fluid S/D Style editing with a form of Track Versions ( PT-style Playlists)

I have some simple actions that are triggered by Command + (Keys 1 through 9) that switch the visibility and Solo selection of my many Sources and Destination track groups. This is simple to manage as the actions use the Parent Folder track names.

To set it up, I start my session, do some quick level and mix adjustments on my raw material on the tracks they were recorded on. Nest these tracks into a Folder, call the folder [DEST] then duplicate this Destination Folder and its children as many times as I wish. Name these copies {SOURCE A], [SOURCE B] etc. I can then drag the various takes to the Source folders and position them where I like and off we go editing. Its important to make sure you have your grouping and all that setup to ensure selections include all files in a source.



This is of course a messy hack, but its robust and has been used on a number of albums already. Importantly for me, it leaves my Reaper session and config completely clean and operating as I desire, allowing me to use the S/D editing approach for when I need to in a session and then continue on my way with mixing and editing in a more modern style. Has been great for projects that are rock based with an orchestra accompanying them.

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Old 09-28-2020, 06:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrn View Post
Thank you for your posts, I'm glad the topic speaks to you. Thanks Cohler for your work, I'll try your code. I watched the presentation video; your work seems crazy, well done. It is almost too evolved for my wish Have you ever discussed with COCKOS for a native implementation? It is important for me to work natively because I have part of my work with NGOs who have no money to buy equipment and I cannot install anything other than REAPER on the workstations.
Cohler Classical is an application that runs ON TOP OF REAPER. It IS a "native implementation." It runs at lightning speed (all commands instantaneous). And requires nothing other than REAPER. (Cockos is two people: @Justin and @Schwa, and they clearly have no interest in this type of editing, because people have asked them about it for more than a decade now. It's too small a market for them.)

As I said, CC is priced at $125 for personal and $250 for business license. So it is, by far, the least expensive, most functional, easiest to use, trivial to install, solution in the world for multitrack track group editing. It literally takes less than 5-minutes to be up and running. It blows away Pyramix, Sequoia, Sadie, Pro Tools and so on...

If you are interested, contact me at info@cohlerclassical.com and I will Zoom with you to get you going.
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