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10-16-2018, 07:14 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Bus track send volumes dilemma
Start with a Bus with an effect and with 4 tracks sending to it.
Each of those tracks are also sending to FX like reverb.
How can I get the Bus to allow me to lower the volume of it (using fader) and also lower the other sends of the tracks please?
If I just pull the Bus fader down then the track sends to the reverb don't change. I can't see a way to do it with Folders, Busses or VCAs. Imagine you have a Drum bus with a hard compressor on the bus and the snare with a reverb send.
If you pull the drum bus fader down then the snare verb is still the same, If you pull the snare down then you no longer have the drive in the Bus that gives you the sound.
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10-16-2018, 07:21 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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AFAIK what I explained yesterday (flowing through the folder on separate channels) is literally the only way that isn't more complicated or has side-effects you wouldn't like. As I mentioned it isn't as bad as it sounds, once set up (which is only 1 extra step) the only thing you lose is adjusting the receives on the FX track individually but that's rare anyway.
Feel free to ask of course but I don't know of any method as robust without other side-effects.
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10-16-2018, 07:31 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Demo... Drag the folder onto the FX track and set to 3/4 > 1/2, then all you do is drag any child onto the folder and set to 1/2 > 3/4 - it really is that simple and simple to manage and less complex than using VCAs on sends - notice the folder now reduces the sends to the FX track without affecting the compressor.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 07:51 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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yes but not for nested folders. Doesn't seem possible. I'm smoking the hard stuff !
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10-16-2018, 07:59 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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You add a 3/4 to 3/4 from the nested track to it's parent - at least my test shows that but I tested quickly and could be wrong - It feels more complex than it is and I think that is still easier to manage than VCAs with the extra fader, grouping and all that crap. It's just that 3/4 carries the sends that's really all there is to remember.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 08:01 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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But then when you pull down the parent (VOX) you will still have the sends from the child folder (LdVox) going to the fx. Let me send you the good smoke.
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10-16-2018, 08:06 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
But then when you pull down the parent (VOX) you will still have the sends from the child folder (LdVox) going to the fx. Let me send you the good smoke.
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I didn't see that behavior since all sends are flowing through the secondary channels. Both folders (main and child) controlled the vox FX without affecting proportions but I can't test further right now.
Send the smoke, maybe that will help.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 08:07 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
Let me send you the good smoke.
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Can I also give you some ideas you don't think will work?
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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10-16-2018, 08:13 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
Start with a Bus with an effect and with 4 tracks sending to it.
Each of those tracks are also sending to FX like reverb.
How can I get the Bus to allow me to lower the volume of it (using fader) and also lower the other sends of the tracks please?
If I just pull the Bus fader down then the track sends to the reverb don't change. I can't see a way to do it with Folders, Busses or VCAs. Imagine you have a Drum bus with a hard compressor on the bus and the snare with a reverb send.
If you pull the drum bus fader down then the snare verb is still the same, If you pull the snare down then you no longer have the drive in the Bus that gives you the sound.
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Route the 4 (or however many) source tracks first to a bus track called Send Master. Route the Send_Master bus to the multiple fx bus tracks. Now you can adjust the Send_Master track fader.
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10-16-2018, 08:15 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I didn't see that behavior since all sends are flowing through the secondary channels. Both folders (main and child) controlled the vox FX without affecting proportions but I can't test further right now.
Send the smoke, maybe that will help.
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LdVox1 routes up through LdVox from there LdVox sends it to the 3 FX tracks on 3/4, 5/6, 7/8. If you pull down Vox which is a parent then you don't affect the sends from LdVox folder and the sends keep blasting.
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10-16-2018, 08:17 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
Route the 4 (or however many) source tracks first to a bus track called Send Master. Route the Send_Master bus to the multiple fx bus tracks. Now you can adjust the Send_Master track fader.
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That breaks the relationships of the audio and sends. The goal is to pull a fader down in either the parent folder Vox or child folder LdVox and have the childrens volumes go down including the sends.
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10-16-2018, 08:21 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
LdVox1 routes up through LdVox from there LdVox sends it to the 3 FX tracks on 3/4, 5/6, 7/8. If you pull down Vox which is a parent then you don't affect the sends from LdVox folder and the sends keep blasting.
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Mine didn't is what I'm saying. My flow is 3/4 from start to finish FYI. LDVOX > parent (3/4) > parent (3/4) > FX track (1/2). IOW, when I reduced the volume for either the main folder or the sub folder the fx sends dropped proportionally, again, I'm out of pocket, can't test further to be sure.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 08:28 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Mine didn't is what I'm saying. My flow is 3/4 from start to finish FYI. LDVOX > parent (3/4) > parent (3/4) > FX track (1/2). IOW, when I reduced the volume for either the main folder or the sub folder the fx sends dropped proportionally, again, I'm out of pocket, can't test further to be sure.
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And doing it that way will make it so the subfolder LDVox would be unable to be used as a fader because it cannot pull the effect sends down
Last edited by Coachz; 10-16-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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10-16-2018, 08:33 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
And doing it that way we'll make it so the subfolder LDVox would be unable to be used as a fader because it cannot pull the effect sends down
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I think we are on different pages and I'm missing what you are saying... Here, both folders control the vox send to the reverb.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 08:42 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Honestly probably best to use channels other than 3/4 though. Those are so often the default sidechain inputs, and especially going through something like a vocal or drum bus, you're likely to want to use that. Of course, you can always reassign that sidechain with the plugin pins, but that's extra work you wouldn't have to do if you just started your FX-thru channels on 5/6 or whatever.
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10-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I think we are on different pages and I'm missing what you are saying... Here, both folders control the vox send to the reverb.
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can I download that project or get more details on the routing? Can those two faders work together?
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10-16-2018, 08:48 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
can I download that project or get more details on the routing? Can those two faders work together?
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Sure, let me replace the fx with builtin reaper fx, hold tight.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 08:54 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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Apologies if I missed something which is entirely possible, I'm doing 12 things at once right now. Attached is the project, you'll need to replace the two empty items with audio files. I have reacomp on the main folder and reaverb on the fx track FYI.
SendTestII.rpp
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 09:08 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
That breaks the relationships of the audio and sends. The goal is to pull a fader down in either the parent folder Vox or child folder LdVox and have the childrens volumes go down including the sends.
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Post fader to the send master.
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10-16-2018, 09:18 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I don't recall ever testing whether the extra channels are affected by pan law attenuation. You'd usually want 0db on bus type tracks (folders here) anyway, and I strongly suspect that since Pan doesn't affect those tracks, the law wouldn't either, but I've never proven it to myself.
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10-16-2018, 09:20 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Honestly probably best to use channels other than 3/4 though. Those are so often the default sidechain inputs, and especially going through something like a vocal or drum bus, you're likely to want to use that. Of course, you can always reassign that sidechain with the plugin pins, but that's extra work you wouldn't have to do if you just started your FX-thru channels on 5/6 or whatever.
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Yea, good point from a best practice perspective.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 09:31 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Yea, good point from a best practice perspective.
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But also very much "do as I say, not as I do". I just throw things around willy nilly and make it work and if i come back a year later I have no idea what's even happening. :P
Funny. I sort of consider this whole thing my idea, but I almost never use it. My mixes just don't usually work this way.
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10-16-2018, 09:34 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Funny. I sort of consider this whole thing my idea, but I almost never use it. My mixes just don't usually work this way.
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Duly credited. I think it works pretty well and is IMHO far less confusing than dealing with VCAs, YMMV.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 10:46 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
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It seems to work ! Let me know if I'm understanding this.
Ld Vox1 sends to LdVox Folder from 1/2 to 3/4 so now the audio is on 3/4 also at LdVox Folder.
then LdVox Folder sends from 3/4 to All VOX Folder's 3/4
then All VOX Folder sends from 3/4 to the verb 1/2
Same thing for BG Folder and BG Vox.
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10-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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That sounds correct coachz.
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10-16-2018, 11:11 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
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Cool. Then you go to the head of the class! I think this WILL be huge because with or without folders I had no way to have bus fx AND fx sends from channels with the ability to control volume at every point. Hell, it only took since 2010 when I joined to figure this out.
You can't do this with just folders, busses or vcas!
Thanks again and I'll leave it to ashcat_lt to test the pan law! And yes, start with 5/6 to allow for 3/4 sidechain.
Now we need a catchy name. How about "stealth sends".
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10-16-2018, 11:12 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
Now we need a catchy name. How about "stealth sends".
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I like that, would be cool if this was more consumable/easy to find for others - not sure if one of your cool PDF docs would suffice or something.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-16-2018, 11:22 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
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I think this would be ideal if we could get Kenny to do a video on it. Stealth sends kill buses, folders, and Vcas. if not I'm happy to do a document on it with some nice screenshots as it's going to help me a lot thanks to you guys. What say you sir Kenny?
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10-16-2018, 11:30 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I thought Reaper Blog had done something on it, but a quick Google isn't bringing it up. Not that I tried too hard...
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10-16-2018, 02:16 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
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Also I think the track names for the effects tracks can really help keep things straight. For example
Long verb 5/6
Short delay 7/8
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10-16-2018, 02:56 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
Also I think the track names for the effects tracks can really help keep things straight. For example
Long verb 5/6
Short delay 7/8
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That's a good idea. I'd really like to be able to alias track channels and/or sends. Would be good for this and many other things.
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10-16-2018, 03:24 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
That's a good idea. I'd really like to be able to alias track channels and/or sends. Would be good for this and many other things.
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what do you mean by alias?
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10-16-2018, 03:56 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
what do you mean by alias?
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Well like give it a name. Then you could name the channels on the buses to match the tracks to which they ultimately send so that when you make the sends from the individual tracks you can pick by a meaningful name rather than having to cross reference numbers and when you come back a year later you can tell what's happening.
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10-16-2018, 04:18 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Well like give it a name. Then you could name the channels on the buses to match the tracks to which they ultimately send so that when you make the sends from the individual tracks you can pick by a meaningful name rather than having to cross reference numbers and when you come back a year later you can tell what's happening.
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Ahh yeah
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10-17-2018, 11:18 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Posted the video request in Kenny's thread.
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10-17-2018, 02:06 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Thanks
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11-25-2018, 12:58 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Wait! Make "proxy tracks" inside your folders to receive whatever you want to send outside the folder. Set those up to send through the folder itself. But then send from individual tracks to the proxy tracks. Name the proxy tracks something that makes sense. Turn off their master send and make a send from each to the unique channels that are getting passed on to the actual outside tracks on the folder track. Now, you can select all of the children and ctrl+shift+drag a send to the proxy track and not have to change the receiving channel one by one. You can also tell on the MCP which send goes to which outside track without having to cross-reference the folder vs channel numbers and which one goes where because you'll see the name of the proxy track, which you hopefully named appropriately.
Last edited by ashcat_lt; 11-25-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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11-25-2018, 05:23 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Wait! Make "proxy tracks" inside your folders to receive whatever you want to send outside the folder. Set those up to send through the folder itself. But then send from individual tracks to the proxy tracks. Name the proxy tracks something that makes sense. Turn off their master send and make a send from each to the unique channels that are getting passed on to the actual outside tracks on the folder track. Now, you can select all of the children and ctrl+shift+drag a send to the proxy track and not have to change the receiving channel one by one. You can also tell on the MCP which send goes to which outside track without having to cross-reference the folder vs channel numbers and which one goes where because you'll see the name of the proxy track, which you hopefully named appropriately.
Edit-
WAIT!
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Can you please make a small project so I can see what's going on here. I'm not one that wants to use extra tracks but I'm always happy to look at new ideas. Thanks
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11-25-2018, 11:14 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Done
Real simple example. I hid the proxy track in the TCP just to illustrate that you can if you want. Once it's all set up, you could probably hide them in the MCP too, but part of the point is to have a target to which you can drag sends from other children, so maybe one of the narrow layouts or something would be better than actually hidden there.
These proxy tracks also make a convenient place to put "bus specific" pre-processing on the way to the actual send destination. Like, if you want to put an EQ on all of the drums going to the verb. There are other ways to do that, too, but dropping it on the proxy track requires no messing with pin connectors.
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11-25-2018, 01:56 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Thanks for the demo. I have multiple nested folders like:
Vox
...LdVox
......vox1
......vox2
...BgVox
......bg1
......bg2
......bg3
FX
...FX1
...FX2
...
...FX10
The goal for me is to keep the nested structure which makes it easy to collapse many tracks at once but also be able to send to FX tracks FX1 ... FX10 that all tracks can send to but also have their sends tracking each tracks fader (vox1...bg3). Stealth Sends seems to do this very well but I don't know if your proxy sends can do that too. The stealth sends seems very clean once I routed channels. I'm always looking for simpler ways though.
In my example, I have 10 FX tracks and reserve audio channels 20 through 39 for them.
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