Old 12-08-2019, 06:23 AM   #1
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default Question about reverbs ....

I have been working on my vocals. I have been making the mistake of slamming the reverbs pretty hard and am learning to use them properly.

I found a person on YouTube who demonstrates that I can add width and depth to my vocals by adding a group of tracks using a very subtle application of the 4 effects listed below that each sit on their own tracks. He made a point to say that the order of these effects is important:

  • Delay
  • Small Room
  • Flat Plate
  • Hall


I also have a vocal reverb as well as a chorus reverb that I like.

My question is, since the order of the above list seems to be important, would the vocal reverb and chorus tracks come BEFORE or AFTER the above list? I am thinking that if the order is important then these two would go BEFORE since it sounds like the above list is intended to enhance the reverb and chorus effects.

Do I have that right or does anyone have a different opinion?
.
.
.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 09:16 AM   #2
xpander
Human being with feelings
 
xpander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
Default

Link to the actual video would help to understand what was the reasoning behind the choices, if any. This one? If so, I'm not so sure the point about their order was made that clear. It seemed the effect busses were all actually parallel, not in series.

The order of effects does matter when you have them in series, because the whole effected audio from one effect (track) goes into the next one to be effected more as a whole etc. Try this with exaggerated parameters and the reason should become apparent; insert a heavy chorus, pitch shifter, distortion or similar effect into a track. Don't try to make it nice, make it bad and obvious. Adjust it so you can really hear how the audio gets mangled by the effect. Then add a big nice reverb after that fx. What you get is a heavily effected signal sitting in a space set up by the reverb. Now switch the order of these effects. What you'll get is audio in a space created by the reverb and that whole thing being heavily effected.

If you would have this or any possible effect combination in parallel, their order does not matter..there really isn't any sequential order, they all get the same signal at the same time. Then you would be just mixing the balance between them to get the total effect you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
My question is, since the order of the above list seems to be important, would the vocal reverb and chorus tracks come BEFORE or AFTER the above list? I am thinking that if the order is important then these two would go BEFORE since it sounds like the above list is intended to enhance the reverb and chorus effects.
You'd have to know what the person in the video was really after sonically, to help understanding the possible reasoning behind the specific choices, the order of fx etc. That said, it would make sense to have the vocal specific effects first and then feed all that into this group of fx tracks.

But you'll have to notice that those 4 tracks are creating a space. Especially if your problem has been too much reverb, adding four tracks more of spatial effects doesn't make much sense, does it? So drop the reverb from your vocal fx and try it like that.
xpander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 09:35 AM   #3
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

The question "Is this right?" is like asking: "What song is the right song to listen to right now?" My answer is Black Sabbath - Into The Void.
But... your answer would be different right?

Reverb is like that. The space you want to hear in your head around your vocal is what is "right". This is subjective of course! There's no one "right".

You can get results using multiple reverbs if you really have a specific sound in your head you're trying to create. Order of operations would be important for verbs of course. You're taking the ambience created with the first one and then putting that into a different space. Kind of convoluted (heh heh) but - if you have that outline in your head - go for it.

I believe you are a beginner based on the questions you're asking though. I suspect you have trouble just dialing up a simple reverb for yourself to taste. Stacking up multiple reverbs like that example if you're not really sure what you're doing would likely lead to a cacophony of silliness!

My advice when getting started:
ReaVerb with any plate impulse.
Followed by ReaEQ
Pull up a high pass and a low pass on the ReaEQ.

Send your vocal to this bus.
Bring up the reverb bus level to taste initially.
Now play with those high and low cuts on the eq!
Roll off all the lows and see how that sounds.
Roll off all the highs and see how that sounds.

You dial in the ambience you want to hear like this.

Next lesson:
Add a delay to the reverb bus. (Order doesn't matter for this one.)
Delay should be 100% wet just like the verb.
Start with a 20ms delay (no feedback - just a straight slap). Play with increasing this between 20 and 200ms). Makes for a pause before you hear the reverb kick in which can get it out of the way.


If you want to do this stuff, you need to learn how to use the basic tools. There's no "right" magic setting that lets you forgo learning how to listen to what you are doing and respond.

Start tying it all together by listening to some reference mixes and listening for what the reverb on the vocal is doing and then trying to imitate that. A simple eq after the reverb like that will get you there right away. This is how this is done. That wild fx chain with multiple reverbs in your example would lead to mayhem if you didn't have a VERY specific sound in your head for a goal!
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 09:45 AM   #4
jelloman
Human being with feelings
 
jelloman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Hudson Valley of NY
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
I have been working on my vocals. I have been making the mistake of slamming the reverbs pretty hard and am learning to use them properly.

I found a person on YouTube who demonstrates that I can add width and depth to my vocals by adding a group of tracks using a very subtle application of the 4 effects listed below that each sit on their own tracks. He made a point to say that the order of these effects is important:

  • Delay
  • Small Room
  • Flat Plate
  • Hall


I also have a vocal reverb as well as a chorus reverb that I like.

My question is, since the order of the above list seems to be important, would the vocal reverb and chorus tracks come BEFORE or AFTER the above list? I am thinking that if the order is important then these two would go BEFORE since it sounds like the above list is intended to enhance the reverb and chorus effects.

Do I have that right or does anyone have a different opinion?
.
.
.
That's David from Home Recording Made Easy...I use this technique all the time...

You're misunderstanding what he means by "order"...what's important is the order you send your vocal to each effect to apply it...you send to the delay to get the repeats sitting just right before you send to the reverbs so the reverbs don't mask the delay...then each subsequent reverb adds a deeper effect, so sending them in that order again doesn't mask the effect...

Since all the sends are routed to the main output you can put them in any order on the mixer as each one is not affected by the other...you can also then route your vocals to any other effects on separate tracks as well since they also will be sending to the mains without affecting the other sends...
jelloman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 10:12 AM   #5
robgb
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 373
Default

There is no single "right way" to do anything in music. Experiment and decide what sounds best to you. Trust your ears.
robgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 11:24 AM   #6
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
That's David from Home Recording Made Easy...I use this technique all the time...

You're misunderstanding what he means by "order"...what's important is the order you send your vocal to each effect to apply it...you send to the delay to get the repeats sitting just right before you send to the reverbs so the reverbs don't mask the delay...then each subsequent reverb adds a deeper effect, so sending them in that order again doesn't mask the effect...

Since all the sends are routed to the main output you can put them in any order on the mixer as each one is not affected by the other...you can also then route your vocals to any other effects on separate tracks as well since they also will be sending to the mains without affecting the other sends...
That's what I wanted to know.....Thanks!
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 12:15 PM   #7
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Been working on my project and am happy how things are going. Things with the reverbs are not quite there yet. Has more work.

QUESTION:

Since it is Christmas, I am recording the song 'Oh Holy Night'.

Just for fun I thought I would use one of my reverbs called 'Cathedral' that makes it sound like your in a church.

I have a vocal BUSS and a music BUSS. I want to know, should I send both BUSS'S through a single track that has the Cathedral reverb on it so that both the music and vocal BUSS's are affected exactly the same by the reverb, or is there a reason I should do it separately on each BUSS?
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 01:12 PM   #8
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

A reason to make them separate would be to eq the music reverb differently than the vocal reverb. The music (being already mixed) might start to get muddy from just straight sending to the verb, for example. Or the opposite - clangy from the cymbals. Whereas you want to keep some of the fuller frequency on the vocal part.

That would be one example.

But if simply sending at the right level from each bus sounds right... then, perfect!
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 08:00 AM   #9
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

I'm really understanding the concepts of sends much better, BUT, there is still an issue with understanding how to do routing of them properly and I am more than sure the answer is very simple and I'm just not seeing it yet.

So, let's say that I have Vox 1 and Vox 2.
Let's also say that I have Fx 1, Fx 2 & Fx 3.

Now, for Vox 1, in order to get the desired effect, I need to send it to Fx 1, Fx 3 and then Fx 2 in that order.

And, For Vox 2, I need to send it to Fx 3, Fx 1 and Fx 2 in that order.

I can see clearly how to do sends, but, from what I can see, it puts the sends and rec'vs in order by track number and I clearly would not want to create an entire new bank of tracks to accomplish this.

So, please help me out here. What am I missing?
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 09:03 AM   #10
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

There is no one right or wrong way to do what you describe.
Regarding more tracks, I wouldn't worry about making more tracks, just do what you need to get the sound you want.

In the situation you describe lets take vox 1 and the 3 fx, lets say you have a delay, a reverb, and saturation.

I am going to describe pretty straightforward way to do this but again there are many and some do change the sound....

If you put your 3 effects on their own tracks (3 separate tracks), each effect can be shared by more than one track (eg, you can route both vocal one and vocal 2 to the reverb track and that reverb will affect both vox. You can affect amount of dry signal going to the reverb by adjusting the send volume in the routing window (you would have the reverb set to 100% wet in this care, typically). Where this is limited is if you wanted to EQ or change the reverb for each sound (ie, different reverb parameters or different EQ of the reverb it self, but you wouldn't necessarily do that if you are trying to make it sound like the sounds are in the same space.It also save CPU as you have fewer effects than if you had one on each vocal separately or a effects bus for each vocal separately). A reason to have a dedicated effect for one sound is that you have more control over it's tone and parameters without affecting the other tracks in the mix, which is common also.

Then you can do the same by sending one or both vocals to the delay track.
The effect signal from each effect track then goes to the master to mix with the dry sound. The effect signal from each effects track mixes with the other effects at the master but they do not affect each other. In other words if you adjust your reverb, it won't affect what the delay sounds like in any way. So that is one way to do it.

Now in the example above, it can be described as parallel processing because the dry signal goes to the master and so does each effects track.

But sometimes you want effects to be in series instead, because in that case it goes from one effect to the next and doesn't go to the master until it comes out the last effect. This will sound different. A good example is having an EQ in series after the reverb so you can shape the sound of the reverb, say if it is too bright or you want to cut some low end out of the reverb (this is common,so that you don't get build up of muddy low end). Or you can actually put a reverb after a delay. So now the reverb is being applied to the delay whereas in our case above it is not. Why would you do this? One reason is that it can soften the delay and give it a little more depth. You could reverse it so that the reverbed signal is delayed. Some say this order doesn't matter but it can effect the sound depending on the type of reverb etc. The options are endless really, but parallel, vs. series and what order the effects are in will affect the sound and how flexible making adjustments and routing are.

So I would try my first example above. Then if you run into limitations, there are other ways to do it with all the routing in reaper, but it can get more complicated. For example the plugin pin connector is another way to route signals to other tracks and effects or control the flow of signal through a series of effects on one track.

Make sense? If you haven't, check out the kenny video about creating effects sends and returns, and a lot of the other videos about specific effects are helpful too.

Last edited by JohnnyMusic; 12-15-2019 at 09:11 AM. Reason: add info
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 09:42 AM   #11
DVDdoug
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
Default

Quote:
Since it is Christmas, I am recording the song 'Oh Holy Night'.

Just for fun I thought I would use one of my reverbs called 'Cathedral' that makes it sound like your in a church.
IMO - The amount of reverb that sounds great in a music hall (or church) doesn't sound natural coming from a pair of speakers in a living room. If you've ever made a "live" recording from you're normal listening position you've probably noticed too much "room sound". You can still use a cathedral reverb, but you may want to use it sparingly.


But, I do use a Dolby soundfield effect to add some rear-channel reverb when listening to music on my "home theater" system. It helps when it comes from behind but it's still less than what you'd hear in a real concert hall.


As everybody is saying, there are no rules but here are a couple of recommendations I've read that I'll pass-on for you to consider -

You can add reverb until it sounds good and then back-off to the point where it's not really noticeable, but where "something's missing" if you remove it completely.


All of the vocals/instruments should have similar reverb so they don't sound like they were recorded in different spaces at different times.
DVDdoug is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 10:02 AM   #12
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
I'm really understanding the concepts of sends much better, BUT, there is still an issue with understanding how to do routing of them properly and I am more than sure the answer is very simple and I'm just not seeing it yet.

So, let's say that I have Vox 1 and Vox 2.
Let's also say that I have Fx 1, Fx 2 & Fx 3.

Now, for Vox 1, in order to get the desired effect, I need to send it to Fx 1, Fx 3 and then Fx 2 in that order.

And, For Vox 2, I need to send it to Fx 3, Fx 1 and Fx 2 in that order.

I can see clearly how to do sends, but, from what I can see, it puts the sends and rec'vs in order by track number and I clearly would not want to create an entire new bank of tracks to accomplish this.

So, please help me out here. What am I missing?
If you are doing a specific effect with 3 different plugins on one source (vox 1), and then a different fx chain for vox 2 (even if just the order of fx plugins is different)...
In a case like that, I'd just dial up those fx chains for each source separately.

You make common fx bus tracks so that you have the ability to send from more than one source track to them. When you want to do unique things for different source tracks... just dial those up separately instead of making a Rube Goldberg routing mess to accomplish it.

Keep it simple when possible.
You have unlimited channels on a DAW mixing board. No need to cram everything into 1 or 2 tracks and make it complex!
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 10:36 AM   #13
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Johnny:

Thank you so much for your explanation as to WHY I might put things in a certain order, BUT, let me be more clear what I am asking.

Here is a picture of my track layout:



Here is the current routing:

Track 4: LV (Lead Vocal) Sent to Track 10: Sub VOCAL

Note: If I were to add additional tracks for say backup singers, those tracks would be routed the same way.

Track 10: Sub VOCAL is then routed to each of the Fx (Tracks 5-9).

Tracks 5-9 are each sent to track 15. Track 16 is also routed to track 15.

Track 15 is routed to 14, then 14 to track 12 and you will see that track 12 is the ONLY track with the MASTER send!


Now, to my question:

I need my track 4: LV track to hit track 8: Delay First, then Track 7: Chorus next and finally track 9: Plate last in that order to get my desired effect.

As soon as I finish recording my lead vocal I am going to add another track to record a backup vocal and in that case, I need the backup vocal to route to track 8: Delay first, then to track 9: Plate followed by track 5 last because there is a Reverb effect on track 5 that I want the backup vocals to have that I do not want on the Lead vocal.

I realize that if necessary, I may have to create a second BUSS for the backup vocals, no problem.

What I am not seeing very clearly yet is HOW to set up the routing so that the Lead vocal track hits the Fx in the order it needs to and the Backup vocal to hit the Fx it needs to which are clearly not the same order.

I am just not clear on how to get the Vox track(s) routed to the Fx as listed above in the proper order.
I also have Presonus Studio One and they make reordering the sends very, very easy! They do that the same way that you can reorder Fx in an Fx chain in Reaper.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 10:52 AM   #14
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

The routing matrix view in Reaper makes VERY quick work or re-ordering routing FYI.

It looks like you understand that sending from a track to another track is simply that. One thing goes into the next thing. And you can send from one track to multiple tracks (and/or the master).

If you're making somewhat complex routing like this... all good.
Trust your ears and do what makes sense and sounds right to you.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 10:58 AM   #15
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

Hello,(my post got submitted by accident before i was done typing)
I don't think I can help you because of a few things:

-I would think though that if you want the second vocal to hit a vocal chain in an entirely different order it would be easier to just have a separate effects chain for that. It will be easier to set up and you can adjust the effects without worrying about ruining the settings you have dialed in for the other vocal. One reason to share effects though would be to save cpu if that's a concern).

-The other is my workflow is quite different from yours (I see you said you were given this layout, and that's fine, I just find it confusing because I don't do it the way you are:
I tend to work in the track control panel vs. the mixer and use folders when setting up routing.
By using folders it creates a sort of hierarchical flow that makes sense to my brain and helps me keep it organized in my mind. And by understanding how reaper's routing works I can accomplish most anything I want.

For example I'll have a vocal folder with some subfolders:
Vocals folder:Effects Folder for EFfects shared by Both Vocal Folders
>>>Lead vocals folder:
>>>>>Dry lead vocal
>>>>>Vocal verb
>>>>>Vocal delay
>>>Background Vocal
>>>>>Background Vocal
>>>>>Background Vocal verb
>>>>>Background Vocal delay

So with folders, all the above flow to the master parent of the Vocals Folder and not directly to the master. If I want say guitars and vocal to share an effect, I create an effects return outside these folders, and have arranged to set up a VCA so that when I change lead vocal folder fader, the effect send amount changes is a proportional way. Its very organized.
I'm not saying you should not do this the way you are, again, if your routing works for you, then go with it. I find it confusing and overly complicated. Hopefully someone that has a work flow more like yours can give you more specific instructions on how to achieve what you want, within your current routing you already have setup. And if you continue to have issues, consider working with folders,you might like it.
Good luck!

Last edited by JohnnyMusic; 12-15-2019 at 11:30 AM.
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:05 AM   #16
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

Just another comment from the peanut gallery here.

If you run into a complex routing needing thing when trying to use fx buses for multiple sources but in unique ways... Duplicating said fx buses for just the unique case is the easy way out. Unless it runs you into the red with CPU cycles, just take the easy road and dial up the unique case separately.

Sometimes complex is needed. Go for it if so.
Sometimes you need to make extra tracks just to route things in the tricky way you want when it comes up. And that's what you do.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:14 AM   #17
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

I guess I am going to need to be more clear.

Another user Tod made this up for me. I did not make up this track layout on my own.

What I do understand is that any and all vocal tracks get sent to the Sub VOCAL BUSS. That's easy for me to get.

Where I am getting lost is in as I said in my previous pods how to control the order that the vocal tracks get sent to the Fx tracks.

So, this is strictly a routing question, nothing more. How to route the Lead vocal track to hit the Fx in the right order.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:33 AM   #18
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

You plug the output from your CD player into your receiver.
You're "sending" from your CD player to your receiver.

Output -> input

See that? (That's an example with hardware you might be familiar with.)

You can ALSO send from one track to many tracks.
It's all "connect the dots". Plug one thing into the next.

That help?

It gets complex if you send from one track to another and then from that track to another... while both of those "another" ALSO send to the master.

Sounds like you have 3 fx bus tracks that output to the master.
Sounds like you want to daisy-chain a signal through more than one of those in one case but have them as separate fx bus channels in another.

You can route anything hideously complex with enough extra tracks...

Jeeze though...
Get 'output -> input' clear in your head so you can route your board as you need. Again, "connect the dots". Literally imagine a wire from one track to another when you make a send from one track to another.

Having a really complex routing setup that someone else made and that you haven't gone through to understand will lead to chaos mixes and confusion that will just be frustrating and lead you away from making music. Start simple and understand how you have wired your mixing board and move on from there.

Any of that clicking?
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:38 AM   #19
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Serr:

Thanks so much for your reply!

However, I will no longer be needing your assistance in the future. If your going to be replying this way then I have no use for your anger. There is enough hate in this world and I don't need to be anywhere near it!

There is no need for you to reply any further.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:49 AM   #20
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

All of the vocals/instruments should have similar reverb so they don't sound like they were recorded in different spaces at different times.[/QUOTE]

I agree this may be true, but it definitely depends what you are mixing:
If the goal is real world, transparent and "natural" sounding then yes, say a jazz trio for example.

But if you are using reverbs as an effect, then mixing and matching different reverbs and effects in a mix is commonplace.

This mix of a yes song is a great example imo. Different sections of the song jump from very ambient to very dry mix and match dry and wet to achieve different effects, depth and separation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVOuYquXuuc
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 11:59 AM   #21
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
Serr:

Thanks so much for your reply!

However, I will no longer be needing your assistance in the future. If your going to be replying this way then I have no use for your anger. There is enough hate in this world and I don't need to be anywhere near it!

There is no need for you to reply any further.
? Huh?

Well OK, good luck with everything.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 12:06 PM   #22
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMusic View Post
Hello,(my post got submitted by accident before i was done typing)
I don't think I can help you because of a few things:

-I would think though that if you want the second vocal to hit a vocal chain in an entirely different order it would be easier to just have a separate effects chain for that. It will be easier to set up and you can adjust the effects without worrying about ruining the settings you have dialed in for the other vocal. One reason to share effects though would be to save cpu if that's a concern).

-The other is my workflow is quite different from yours (I see you said you were given this layout, and that's fine, I just find it confusing because I don't do it the way you are:
I tend to work in the track control panel vs. the mixer and use folders when setting up routing.
By using folders it creates a sort of hierarchical flow that makes sense to my brain and helps me keep it organized in my mind. And by understanding how reaper's routing works I can accomplish most anything I want.

For example I'll have a vocal folder with some subfolders:
Vocals folder:Effects Folder for EFfects shared by Both Vocal Folders
>>>Lead vocals folder:
>>>>>Dry lead vocal
>>>>>Vocal verb
>>>>>Vocal delay
>>>Background Vocal
>>>>>Background Vocal
>>>>>Background Vocal verb
>>>>>Background Vocal delay

So with folders, all the above flow to the master parent of the Vocals Folder and not directly to the master. If I want say guitars and vocal to share an effect, I create an effects return outside these folders, and have arranged to set up a VCA so that when I change lead vocal folder fader, the effect send amount changes is a proportional way. Its very organized.
I'm not saying you should not do this the way you are, again, if your routing works for you, then go with it. I find it confusing and overly complicated. Hopefully someone that has a work flow more like yours can give you more specific instructions on how to achieve what you want, within your current routing you already have setup. And if you continue to have issues, consider working with folders,you might like it.
Good luck!
Thanks Johnny, I guess I was trying to think of a way that both the lead and backup vocals could share the same reverbs/delays as they are in this layout I have been using, but, from the looks of the way your doing it you have separate ones. I know how to set up folders and such, it is just that I have been working with this layout that this person gave me and since then I never really looked at other layouts much.

I honestly had no idea until today that apparently this layout I am using seems to be too complex, but, whatever ......

I'll just be moving on and trying other things then......

Thanks again for your time ..........
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 12:24 PM   #23
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

I didn't say it was too complex, just that there might be more efficient ways to do it and I do it differently.

I am going to answer based on your screen shot, but it may have unintended consequences.

To process the dry vocal with effects in series: Drag the routing button from your sub vocal which is receiving your lead vocal, I assume, to the effect track you want it to hit first, then drag it from that first effect to the next in the chain and so on, dragging it from one effect to the next (effect 1 to effect 2, effect 2 to effect 3, and so on). After the last effect, drag the last effects routing to the master or master fx or submaster however you want (I don't quite grasp why you have the sub master and master fx set up and labeled but thats ok that is not your main question anyway...).

Now the thing is, on your screen shot it looks like you have sends from the sub vocal going to each effects track, that is going to give you parallel processing of each track separately, in other words each effect will process the dry vocal separately and then mix them together when they arrive at the master effects track (one effect will not effect how the other behaves regarding processing), but they will be mixed together later. This is different from what I describe above, which is in series (one to the next in a row). So I think you are confusing 2 ways of processing the effects. The way you have sends to each effect from subvocal is parallel, and what I described above is series. I refer to the differences in my other post. I don't think you want both, but maybe you do.

Now,again, neither way is wrong, it just depends how you want to do it. keep in mind if you have them set up in series for example, then you send a background vocal to the same effects in series, you can do it in a different order just by changing what order you drag from one track to the next as described above, but every time you adjust the effect on a given track, then it may effect each vocal different because they are set up in a different order. This will become very difficult to control and adjust and keep clear in your mind how it is set and the affect it is having. Thus the suggestion for a separate background vocal effects chain if you want a different effect order, unless you must preserve processing power.But again it appears you have it set up to do parallel.

Let me know if that makes sense. I am happy to clarify.
John

Last edited by JohnnyMusic; 12-15-2019 at 12:37 PM.
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 01:25 PM   #24
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
Serr:

Thanks so much for your reply!

However, I will no longer be needing your assistance in the future. If your going to be replying this way then I have no use for your anger. There is enough hate in this world and I don't need to be anywhere near it!

There is no need for you to reply any further.
sjs94704, I think you misinterpreted serr's offhand, conversational way of laying out the information in that post. I'm certain there was no anger there or intended.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 01:57 PM   #25
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

I was just going to say to everyone:

I apologize because I misread what you were trying to say before and it at first glance sounded like you were telling me off at one point where you started with geeeze, .........! It just hit me wrong.....

Let me just say this. I have come to realize in a BIG way that misinformation and misunderstandings are the root of ALL evil!

Just last week I was coming home from shopping. I was stopped on the street and speaking to someone and at one point a young girl passed by me and thought I was talking to her when there was something specific that I said that was not deogitory at all! But, because of that misunderstanding, she got really mad and hauled off and sucker punched me twice in my right eye and now I have a bit of a shiner, so please forgive me for being a bit on edge.

Between that and all this bullshit politics in Washington I have had it with hateful people.

So, as I said, this was a case of a simple misunderstanding of what you wrote.

-Steven
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 02:36 PM   #26
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
Default

I think you are still misunderstanding what is meant by "order" (see post 4) - the order of the fx on your mixer don't matter, as they all happen at the same time - but what was suggested was that you set the levels to the fx (by the send knobs) one at a time, in a particular order, so that you can hear better what you are doing while setting up your mix
domzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 03:01 PM   #27
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
I think you are still misunderstanding what is meant by "order" (see post 4) - the order of the fx on your mixer don't matter, as they all happen at the same time - but what was suggested was that you set the levels to the fx (by the send knobs) one at a time, in a particular order, so that you can hear better what you are doing while setting up your mix
Another way to say this is that if they are processed in parallel it doesn't matter (which is how it appears the effects are set up in the op's example, but in series, it very well may matter, depending on which processes are involved.
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 03:12 PM   #28
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
Default

i'm racking my brains trying to come up with an unambiguous way of answering the original question, in order to put all the confusion to bed.
I think the best i've got is that it's the order in which you listen to the fx when you are adjusting your mix, not the routing order of the plugins.

(But obviously all the other stuff about routing is true, just that i don't think it relates to the initial query)
domzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 03:20 PM   #29
JohnnyMusic
Human being with feelings
 
JohnnyMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Twin Cities, Mn
Posts: 384
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
i'm racking my brains trying to come up with an unambiguous way of answering the original question, in order to put all the confusion to bed.
I think the best i've got is that it's the order in which you listen to the fx when you are adjusting your mix, not the routing order of the plugins.

(But obviously all the other stuff about routing is true, just that i don't think it relates to the initial query)
Well, I think the routing explanation was/is relevant because the OP didn't seem to realize that in the parallel set up he has going, there is no order of effects, because they are all processed simultaneously. He still asked how to determine the order. So that implies he is not considering the difference between a parallel or series routing. This is basic to how you decide to run an effect and will have implications for how it sounds and functions so needs to be considered as you set up your effects if that makes sense...
JohnnyMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 03:27 PM   #30
Greg Savage
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
I'm really understanding the concepts of sends much better, BUT, there is still an issue with understanding how to do routing of them properly and I am more than sure the answer is very simple and I'm just not seeing it yet.

So, let's say that I have Vox 1 and Vox 2.
Let's also say that I have Fx 1, Fx 2 & Fx 3.

Now, for Vox 1, in order to get the desired effect, I need to send it to Fx 1, Fx 3 and then Fx 2 in that order.

And, For Vox 2, I need to send it to Fx 3, Fx 1 and Fx 2 in that order.

I can see clearly how to do sends, but, from what I can see, it puts the sends and rec'vs in order by track number and I clearly would not want to create an entire new bank of tracks to accomplish this.

So, please help me out here. What am I missing?


Nevermind, after looking at my template it wouldn't the way you have things set up

Last edited by Greg Savage; 12-15-2019 at 03:55 PM.
Greg Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 04:11 PM   #31
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMusic View Post
Well, I think the routing explanation was/is relevant because the OP didn't seem to realize that in the parallel set up he has going, there is no order of effects, because they are all processed simultaneously. He still asked how to determine the order. So that implies he is not considering the difference between a parallel or series routing. This is basic to how you decide to run an effect and will have implications for how it sounds and functions so needs to be considered as you set up your effects if that makes sense...
it does make sense, of course, and it is something the op really needs to understand if he is to use complex routing, but all i was trying to point out is that the initial query was about a video in which someone suggests applying the fx one after the other (in time) so as to be able to hear them better when trying to achieve a sound. All the routing stuff is already taken care of (in parallel etc,) and therefore a bit of a sidetrack.
domzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 04:32 PM   #32
Greg Savage
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMusic View Post
Well, I think the routing explanation was/is relevant because the OP didn't seem to realize that in the parallel set up he has going, there is no order of effects, because they are all processed simultaneously. He still asked how to determine the order. So that implies he is not considering the difference between a parallel or series routing. This is basic to how you decide to run an effect and will have implications for how it sounds and functions so needs to be considered as you set up your effects if that makes sense...
Indeed, indeed
Greg Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 06:41 AM   #33
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Hey, Everyone:

Thanks for all your contributions. I am reading them. There was a bit of confusion for me because in one of the many videos I have been watching, I had misunderstood the persons comments when he was using the term 'order'. One person did address it in post #4, but, I realize that even then I just had not quite caught on to what was being demonstrated and got stuck on the word 'order' and simply thought there was something to the 'order' that things happen.

Some mixing terminology is not quite second nature for me yet either.

As I showed you all, someone else made up that track layout for me, but, since I have no formal training and am just a self-taught hobbyist with all of this, it's gonna take a minute for anyone to put all the pieces together and for it all to make sense.

In the end, I am benefiting from all your input.

Once again, I apologize to Serr for being short with you. As I explained in a previous post, for the first time in my life I was assaulted on the street last week and am realizing I'm a bit vulnerable to what sounded like him getting angry with me by the way I read a comment he wrote which was a total misunderstanding on my part. I hope you will understand, Serr. (If he might not be reading this thread any longer, please someone let him so he knows I'm trying to make amends)

Anyway, thanks again. I am confident that I'm understanding now what's up!
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 11:15 AM   #34
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMusic View Post
Well, I think the routing explanation was/is relevant because the OP didn't seem to realize that in the parallel set up he has going, there is no order of effects, because they are all processed simultaneously. He still asked how to determine the order. So that implies he is not considering the difference between a parallel or series routing. This is basic to how you decide to run an effect and will have implications for how it sounds and functions so needs to be considered as you set up your effects if that makes sense...
That's what I saw and why I was trying to push some examples to try to illustrate that. It's really a simple "output from one thing" connected to "input of the next thing" concept when you finally see it. The mixing board can look quite intimidating when you don't!

If trying to show you this stuff makes you angry @sjs94704, there's a collaboration sub-forum in here if you just want people to hear your latest song and focus around that.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 01:11 PM   #35
Greg Savage
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post

I have no formal training and am just a self-taught hobbyist with all of this, it's gonna take a minute for anyone to put all the pieces together and for it all to make sense.

In the end, I am benefiting from all your input.


All good. Most musicians, engineers, etc are self-taught. Lots of info out there today vs 20 years ago where the manual and trial and error were the only options. Heck, you'd be lucky to find someone in your area willing to show you anything (if they knew).

It'll come in time man.
Greg Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 10:14 AM   #36
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

QUESTION:

Yes, some of the music I have I have the instruments separated out, BUT, the drums are always a single track what the website calls a 'Drum Kit'.

I am interested to know if anyone can suggest a FREE EQ VST I could get that might have a good preset that could possibly bring out all the different sounds of the drums much better than just the track 'as is'? I'm asking because I got close to accomplishing that a long time ago but it was a struggle to get there! BUT, I know the drum kit track has the potential of sounding much better than with no EQ at all. I'm looking for an EQ VST with a decent preset so I don't have to struggle with trying to get that track to sound better the way I would hope for.

Or, if anyone has any ideas of what I can do with the drum kit track I am all ears. Yes, I can and am working on learning EQ, but, in the meantime I would like to try to take advantage of the sounds I know are on that drum track.

Thanks......... Steven
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 11:12 AM   #37
Greg Savage
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
I am interested to know if anyone can suggest a FREE EQ VST I could get that might have a good preset that could possibly bring out all the different sounds of the drums much better than just the track 'as is'?
There are many Free EQ's out there but knowing if the presets would make your current drums sound good is a shot in the dark. Reaper's EQ's have presets.

Lots of Free EQ's here
http://www.vst4free.com/index.php?plug-ins=EQ

Can't tell you if their presets will improve your drums or not. Trial and error will be the answer
Greg Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 01:56 PM   #38
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
Default

Just wanting to know, I have a 64-bit PC running Windows 10 Home.

1. Would it benefit me to upgrade my version of Windows to one other than the WIN 10 Home version?

2. As I am looking at VSTs online to download, some of them have:

WIN 64 VST & WIN 32 VST versions. If a VST that is only available as WIN 32, will it still work on my 64 bit PC ?
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 03:29 PM   #39
Greg Savage
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
Just wanting to know, I have a 64-bit PC running Windows 10 Home.

1. Would it benefit me to upgrade my version of Windows to one other than the WIN 10 Home version?

2. As I am looking at VSTs online to download, some of them have:

WIN 64 VST & WIN 32 VST versions. If a VST that is only available as WIN 32, will it still work on my 64 bit PC ?
It should. I haven't used windows in years, give it a try.
Greg Savage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2019, 08:38 PM   #40
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
If a VST that is only available as WIN 32, will it still work on my 64 bit PC ?
It will if you have bridging enabled - it's one of the additional options when you install Reaper, enabled by default if memory serves me correctly.
domzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.