Old 02-18-2021, 11:35 AM   #1
ronnydee
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Default Drums: how to combine mono to create stereo?

Using macos and focusrite 18i20 audio interface.

Mic setup:
1 overhead large diaphram centered over snare
1 condenser over my left shoulder running from center of bass drum to the mic
1 snare
1 kick internal

Iím finally trying to understand recording so new at it still

So if I record and listen to playback itís mono. I believe because of closed mics?

How do you create a stereo recording with my setup or can I ?

Thankx
Ronnydee
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Old 02-18-2021, 11:54 AM   #2
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Welcome to the forum Ronny.

It's not about how you "record" in stereo, but how you play back the files. Pan one of those overheads to the left and the other to the right. Bam! Stereo!
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Old 02-18-2021, 12:55 PM   #3
serr
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Originally Posted by ronnydee View Post
Using macos and focusrite 18i20 audio interface.

Mic setup:
1 overhead large diaphram centered over snare
1 condenser over my left shoulder running from center of bass drum to the mic
1 snare
1 kick internal

Iím finally trying to understand recording so new at it still

So if I record and listen to playback itís mono. I believe because of closed mics?

How do you create a stereo recording with my setup or can I ?

Thankx
Ronnydee
Well, you very much recorded the kit in mono...

The only option would be after the fact faking some stereo.
You're not going to be able to derive a stereo picture of the kit from a single mono overhead after the fact, of course. Maybe some creative ambience or something?

You could maybe slice and dice the overhead and split out the toms or something. Probably a bad idea that would waste a lot of time and sound terrible though!

Mono drums are OK though. You recorded your drum kit in mono. Go with that for this recording!

If you want to capture your drum kit in stereo, put up a stereo overhead pair next time.
(Add spot mics to kick, snare, and toms if you want even more control.)
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Old 02-18-2021, 03:28 PM   #4
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If you want to capture your drum kit in stereo, put up a stereo overhead pair next time.
But he is recording with 2 "overheads", even if they're not literally "overhead". The second mic that's over his shoulder is the second overhead mic. He's basically using a variation of the Glyn Jons method, aka the "Recorderman" technique. Like dug dog said, all he has to do is pan his 2 overheads and his kit is spread in stereo. It's a well established and often used micing method. I mic'd my drums that way for a long time and it works very well.

Here's a link: http://jonstinson.com/the-recorder-m...ing-technique/
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:31 PM   #5
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But he is recording with 2 "overheads", even if they're not literally "overhead". The second mic that's over his shoulder is the second overhead mic. He's basically using a variation of the Glyn Jons method, aka the "Recorderman" technique. Like dug dog said, all he has to do is pan his 2 overheads and his kit is spread in stereo. It's a well established and often used micing method. I mic'd my drums that way for a long time and it works very well.

Here's a link: http://jonstinson.com/the-recorder-m...ing-technique/
H Abraham yes modified glyn Johnís which i also use on my other kit.

Just experimenting right now that I have time (Iím retired now) and always have much playing time now whenever I want.

Iíll check out the links

Thankx bud
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:33 PM   #6
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Welcome to the forum Ronny.

It's not about how you "record" in stereo, but how you play back the files. Pan one of those overheads to the left and the other to the right. Bam! Stereo!
Thankx man.

Been using reaper for a long time now along with garage band. But I just always gravitate back to reaper. Albeit the user interface is a bit outdated, but does the job as expected

👍
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:33 PM   #7
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H Abraham yes modified glyn Johnís which i also use on my other kit.

Just experimenting right now that I have time (Iím retired now) and always have much playing time now whenever I want.

Iíll check out the links

Thankx bud
No problem. You don't even have to have to check out the links. You're already familiar with the technique. But it never hurts to read more, I guess.

What you're doing is fine. Just follow dug dog's advice on the panning and you're good to go.
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Old 02-18-2021, 05:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin' View Post
But he is recording with 2 "overheads", even if they're not literally "overhead". The second mic that's over his shoulder is the second overhead mic. He's basically using a variation of the Glyn Jons method, aka the "Recorderman" technique. Like dug dog said, all he has to do is pan his 2 overheads and his kit is spread in stereo. It's a well established and often used micing method. I mic'd my drums that way for a long time and it works very well.

Here's a link: http://jonstinson.com/the-recorder-m...ing-technique/
Oh sure. I missed that detail, sorry! Blind apparently...

I agree, try to go for that. Maybe take a look at realigning the tracks to center the snare depending on the need.
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Old 02-18-2021, 05:15 PM   #9
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Maybe take a look at realigning the tracks to center the snare depending on the need.
Actually, that's a great point.

I would measure to make sure both "overheads" are the same distance away from the snare. I think it's less important to center the kik than it is to center the snare.

Rock on.
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Old 02-19-2021, 10:17 AM   #10
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No problem. You don't even have to have to check out the links. You're already familiar with the technique. But it never hurts to read more, I guess.

What you're doing is fine. Just follow dug dog's advice on the panning and you're good to go.

Hi Abraham, thankx for the help. By panning, i now have stereo.

Question:
I built a diy kelly shu internal mic system using the shure beta 52. experimenting to use both internal and an external (Shure 57). Do i use the same EQ on both?
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Old 02-20-2021, 05:26 AM   #11
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Do i use the same EQ on both?

It's up to you. EQ is applied "as required". You could buss both mics to one track and put one EQ on that track.

The most important thing, in this case, will be making sure that the 2 kick mics are time aligned such that the transients are perfectly lined up. (Of course, there are no rules, but this will get you the tightest sounding kick.)
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:38 AM   #12
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It's up to you. EQ is applied "as required". You could buss both mics to one track and put one EQ on that track.

The most important thing, in this case, will be making sure that the 2 kick mics are time aligned such that the transients are perfectly lined up. (Of course, there are no rules, but this will get you the tightest sounding kick.)
Hmm interesting thankx for the tip 👍
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:29 AM   #13
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I would measure to make sure both "overheads" are the same distance away from the snare. I think it's less important to center the kik than it is to center the snare.
I feel like thatís an important part of GJ/Recorderman and is stressed pretty heavily every time the techniques are explained. I bought a laser measuring device mostly for this reason. Havenít recorded live drums since. Then I found out my phone will do it...
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:10 PM   #14
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I feel like that’s an important part of GJ/Recorderman and is stressed pretty heavily every time the techniques are explained. I bought a laser measuring device mostly for this reason. Haven’t recorded live drums since. Then I found out my phone will do it...
Hey Ashcat.

Are you saying that centering the snare is an important part? Or are you saying I should be measuring the distance from the kik, too? Either way, you'd be right. I choose not to worry about centering the kik because my kik mic is where most(almost all, if not all) of my kik sound is coming from. But, if we went by the "book", I think the Glyn method does require centering both the snare and the kik. I just use an old fashioned measuring tape.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:36 PM   #15
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I guess for me itís not even about stereo image so much as phase coherence. As long as the kick/snare are in phase between the two mics, you can pan them wherever you want and know that they will work and at the very least the kick/snare will be full and natural without any wonkiness. Honestly, the best way to fine tune the position is by listening, preferably in mono at least some of the time, and maybe even with polarity flipped on one for a minute or two. Even if that means recording, listening back, adjusting, listening back...

The laser thingy was only like $20, and Iíve used it for other things, so I donít feel too bad about it.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:44 PM   #16
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The laser thingy was only like $20, and I’ve used it for other things, so I don’t feel too bad about it.
Yea, I have one of those, pretty neat. Still use string for OHs out of habit. That said I used that method (well the recorderman version) for drums for years, but anytime I'm throwing up stereo overheads, I'm getting the kick and/or snare equidistant.

Especially if you go the route of getting really solid OH sound then just using kick/snare mics to fill in the difference.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:47 PM   #17
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I guess for me it’s not even about stereo image so much as phase coherence. As long as the kick/snare are in phase between the two mics, you can pan them wherever you want and know that they will work and at the very least the kick/snare will be full and natural without any wonkiness.
I agree, good point. I do like having my snare in the middle 99.9999% of the time, so I am concerned about stereo imaging. But, like you said, that can be done afterwards if need be. But phase coherence is the important thing when it comes placement. I used to flip the phase (polarity, whatever). Now I manually line my snare track up to be lined up with my overheads. You can hear when it's right as soon as you get it right.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:49 PM   #18
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Especially if you go the route of getting really solid OH sound then just using kick/snare mics to fill in the difference.
Yeah, it might depend on the style of music. For anything I record, I use the snare and kik mics for much more than just filling in the difference. But whatever works for whatever you're doing.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:57 PM   #19
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I'm still in the habit of grabbing the drummer's sticks for a measuring tool at live shows. "Live shows"... This was this thing that used to happen...

Anyway, I suppose I should pull the stupid phone out and play with it a little more! Learn new things and play with lasers! Can you start a forest fire measuring drum overheads with lasers?
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:01 PM   #20
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Yeah, it might depend on the style of music. For anything I record, I use the snare and kik mics for much more than just filling in the difference. But whatever works for whatever you're doing.
I've heard a bit of your stuff, I don't hear anything different from what I'm saying so maybe I worded badly.

In most any setup where the OH's are pointing at the snare (the over the shoulder method et al mentioned by the OP), we don't really have much choice - the OH is going to pretty much dominate with snare and/or kick (pointing at it and so close to them) and the kick/snares just fill it out in a good way. They still provide the meat but mute the OHs and you lose the majority of the whole.

I mean one can hipass and spend all the time trying to get the snare and kick out of the OH but after micing drums and recording them for 30 years from a rock perspective, I came to the conclusion if you get everything mic'd and in phase to begin with, you end up with a more solid sound by not turning the OHs in to treble mics.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:02 PM   #21
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"Live shows"... This was this thing that used to happen...
Yeah, I think I've heard of those things. I might have even been part of a few. But that might just be my drug-riddled imagination.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:06 PM   #22
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I've heard a bit of your stuff, I don't hear anything different from what I'm saying so maybe I worded badly.

In most any setup where the OH's are pointing at the snare (the over the shoulder method et al mentioned by the OP), we don't really have much choice - the OH is going to pretty dominate the snare and/or kick sound (pointing at it and so close to them) and the kick/snares just fill it out in a good way. They still provide the meat but mute the OHs and you lose the majority of the whole.
Right. I agree. Unless someone's pointing the overheads at only the cymbals or something stupid, the snare will dominate.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:07 PM   #23
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I honestly would rather just use a stereo mic or x/y pair, but if the drummer wants to get fancy about things... Either way, I generally try to draw a line between the center of the snare and the center of the kick, and point the pair at some point along that line. Usually more at the snare because at least with the drummers I record, the worst part of the kick sound is too loud anyway, and I always have a close kick (which Iíll generally nudge to the OHs after), but only use a snare mic if the drummer insists, and even then itís probably just gonna he for looks.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:12 PM   #24
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I honestly would rather just use a stereo mic or x/y pair, but if the drummer wants to get fancy about things... Either way, I generally try to draw a line between the center of the snare and the center of the kick, and point the pair at some point along that line. Usually more at the snare because at least with the drummers I record, the worst part of the kick sound is too loud anyway, and I always have a close kick (which Iíll generally nudge to the OHs after), but only use a snare mic if the drummer insists, and even then itís probably just gonna he for looks.
Yeah, I stopped using the Glyn/Recorderman method years ago. I, too, just use a spaced pair now. But, the same principles still apply for me. Center the snare but also close mic it. Close mic the kik but don't worry about centering it. That's just what I've found works for me over the years. Also, I only record myself. If I was recording other people playing different styles of music, I'm sure it wouldn't be so cut and dry all the time.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:14 PM   #25
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I honestly would rather just use a stereo mic or x/y pair, but if the drummer wants to get fancy about things...
The thing that took me away from X/Y for so long was terrible conditions where the recorderman method was simply the one that sounded and worked best. It requires a drummer who can play and manage dynamics as part of their performance because with that setup, you can't do a lot of drum mixin' and you're mostly dependent on the drummer to take care of that part; but my drummer always had that so recorderman it was. Now I mostly use spaced pair in general but I could see myself trying X/Y again.
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