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07-05-2020, 08:34 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Tone does not change when switching instruments in Reabank file.
I'm trying to get a handle on using ReaControlMIDI to access the sounds on my Kawai ES110, but having problems. I believe the file is created correctly, and my patching is ok. but I'm a beginner so possibly something is wrong. That said, With ReaControlMIDI open, should the tone change when I got through program selection? e.g. The tone is set to Grand and that is what I hear, If I then set it to Elec. Piano, strings, or whatever, should the tone change immediately? That does not happen. The first tone remains. Is there some sort of "enter" or reset that need to be activated for a different tone to sound?
Pdf image is my settings.
my es110 .reabank file as a .txt file
Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.
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07-05-2020, 11:43 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
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Do you have midi output from Reaper feeding to the midi input on your keyboard?
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07-06-2020, 03:31 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
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That looks OK to me. You can add the MIDI Logger (it's a JS FX) to the track and you see that the Bank Select and PC messages are sent when you select the program from the drop-down list.
Do you need to do anything to configure the keyboard to accept PC messages?
That MIDI Logger is available here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=189126
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07-06-2020, 04:35 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
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You're missing the item count column
If you look at my example in the other thread again...there's a column counting 0, 1, 2 etc on left, then tab to program change number.
NB....To be clear, I have no idea if this is your problem, but this is how the reabank file I edited was and it works for me that way
EDIT: Looks like it shouldn't make any difference according this instruction the first number is patch change, the 2nd is only part of the descriptor and optional.
http://www.djemberecords.com/reaper_...f_Reabanks.pdf
Last edited by Stella645; 07-06-2020 at 04:44 AM.
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07-06-2020, 10:45 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
That looks OK to me. You can add the MIDI Logger (it's a JS FX) to the track and you see that the Bank Select and PC messages are sent when you select the program from the drop-down list.
Do you need to do anything to configure the keyboard to accept PC messages?
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There is just enable and disable for Multitimbral mode. I can play into Reaper from the Kawai, and Reaper can play the Kawai. Through my MIDI/USB cable. I just want to make use of the other sounds it has.
Please bear with my ignorance, I'm not sure how to use this. Do I use the midi-logger_DS.txt file with the JS MIDI logger FX? If so, how do I open it.
I'm still getting wacky results.
Last edited by Kaiso; 07-06-2020 at 05:24 PM.
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07-06-2020, 03:10 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiso
Please bear with my ignorance, I'm not sure how to use this. Do I use the midi-logger_DS.txt file with the JS MIDI logger FX? If so, how do I open it.
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midi-logger_DS is a JS FX, it is just a modified version of the midi-logger JS FX. Once installed you just add it to a track, just like any other JS FX.
There was a link on that other thread. Here it is:
How to install a JS FX (in Post #4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiso
Off topic, is there a link somewhere on how to make gifs like you did, it would help me illustrate my questions better?
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I used Licecap
https://www.cockos.com/licecap/
https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44
In your screenshot it looks like ReaControlMIDI is sending out messages on all 16 channels too. And the PC messages have a value of 0.
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07-06-2020, 06:20 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
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Thanks. Followed instructions in post 4, and now have the logger. Herre is what I'm getting. I have Track 1 to set to Ch 2 and track 1 set to Ch 4 in ReaControlMIDI. Both still show up as Ch 1 in logger.
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07-07-2020, 04:03 AM
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#9
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If MIDI logger tells you that you actually get MIDI data in channel 1 from both of the tracks, how have you set the MIDI channels for your tracks? From the MIDI log it seems you have copied the same MIDI item into both tracks? If that's the case, you will have all the notes in the same MIDI channel, in this case MIDI channel 1.
Open one of the MIDI items in MIDI Editor, select all the notes, right click over one of them and in the menu, go to Note channel. Select the MIDI channel you want for those notes. Repeat for the other MIDI item. Notice also that you have MIDI channel setting in ReaControlMIDI.
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07-07-2020, 04:22 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
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The loggers show the MIDI on the track, BEFORE it is sent out to the hardware (I guess you have set the MIDI channel in the track's Routing window).
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07-07-2020, 06:36 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
The loggers show the MIDI on the track, BEFORE it is sent out to the hardware (I guess you have set the MIDI channel in the track's Routing window).
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Should I not do that? I guessed I needed to set the MIDI ch in ReaControlMIDI and then do the same in the routing. Image below. I really don't understand all the routing parameters and have been guessing. That said, I changed the two tracks to "Send to original channels" and the sounds are working. However, the faders in the mixer for the these channels do not affect volume. How does one make the mixer faders apply?
At this point, I'd like to thank all for the helpful and educational responses. I appreciate you efforts as I muddle through learning Reaper. I am quite proficient in 3d Design software, and often teach and assist others. I assumed learning this would be easy. It makes me feel like a moron, and I have been humbled.
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07-08-2020, 03:48 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiso
However, the faders in the mixer for the these channels do not affect volume. How does one make the mixer faders apply?
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Right click on mixer channel and in midi track controls menu you can link the faders and pan to midi output.
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07-08-2020, 03:52 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
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Don't worry, you should not feel like a moron. We all started somewhere and once you get it, you'll really get it.
Let's talk about MIDI channels:
-- your keyboard will be configured to send MIDI notes on a particular channel.
-- (some keyboards and be split into zones, where the keys in one zone send notes on one MIDI channel and the keys in the other zone send notes on a different MIDI channel).
-- anyway the MIDI arrives in Reaper,
-- there is an option on the Reaper track to switch the MIDI onto a specific channel.
-- any MIDI Logger would log the MIDI at this point.
-- the MIDI is then sent from the track to a hardware output (your Kawai), selected in the Track Routing window.
-- and there is an option there to switch the MIDI onto a specific channel.
This might help:
>>> https://i.imgur.com/wg4015w.png
Having said all that the CC events in your screenshot are on Channel 5 in the Logger. Where did they come form? I do know that on some keyboard controllers the MIDI channel used for CC messages can be set to be different from the channel(s) used for MIDI notes.
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As for the Mixer faders:
-- the audio is generated in your Kawai, nowhere near Reaper,
-- the Mixer faders only control audio within Reaper,
-- there may be a way to get those track faders to send MIDI CC#7 (Volume) messages out to the Kawai, but I do not know how,
-- if you enable Control Change is ReaControlMIDI and switch to RAW mode, you can use the volume slider there.
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07-08-2020, 01:29 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645
Right click on mixer channel and in midi track controls menu you can link the faders and pan to midi output.
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that worked.
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07-08-2020, 02:32 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Don't worry, you should not feel like a moron. We all started somewhere and once you get it, you'll really get it.
Let's talk about MIDI channels:
-- your keyboard will be configured to send MIDI notes on a particular channel.
-- (some keyboards and be split into zones, where the keys in one zone send notes on one MIDI channel and the keys in the other zone send notes on a different MIDI channel).
-- anyway the MIDI arrives in Reaper,
-- there is an option on the Reaper track to switch the MIDI onto a specific channel.
-- any MIDI Logger would log the MIDI at this point.
-- the MIDI is then sent from the track to a hardware output (your Kawai), selected in the Track Routing window.
-- and there is an option there to switch the MIDI onto a specific channel.
This might help:
>>> https://i.imgur.com/wg4015w.png
Having said all that the CC events in your screenshot are on Channel 5 in the Logger. Where did they come form? I do know that on some keyboard controllers the MIDI channel used for CC messages can be set to be different from the channel(s) used for MIDI notes.
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As for the Mixer faders:
-- the audio is generated in your Kawai, nowhere near Reaper,
-- the Mixer faders only control audio within Reaper,
-- there may be a way to get those track faders to send MIDI CC#7 (Volume) messages out to the Kawai, but I do not know how,
-- if you enable Control Change is ReaControlMIDI and switch to RAW mode, you can use the volume slider there.
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I'm getting a handle on it and thanks for the detailed pics. I was not clear on the fact than input and output MIDI are separate entities and not necessarily linked. Still, I'm still having trouble getting this to work correctly on a specific track. e.g.
Track 3 is set to Strings (49) on MIDI channel 3. It plays correctly and the logger shows the channel as 3. Program change listed as 49, which with what is set in ReaControlMIDI.
Track 6 is set to 60's E. Piano (5) on MIDI channel 8. It plays incorrectly (sounds like the Grand piano) and as you noted, the logger shows the channel starting as 5 then switching to 8. Program change is 0 when 5 is displayed in ReaControlMIDI.
The Kawai is pretty simple, I can't see how I could have in inadvertently changed the channel to 5. And then what changes it to 8, ReaControlMIDI?
Also, all types of other weirdness happens. At times I can get a different sound to play, but then it sets, and all other changes sould like that. e.g. Harpsichord, E. Piano, and Vibraphone have the same sound -- Vibraphone. I wonder, could there something wrong in the syntax of the .ReaBank file I made?
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07-08-2020, 03:20 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
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Weird.
When are those Channel 5 MIDI events being created? Exactly what were you doing at the time?
ReaControllMIDI does not change the channel of any MIDI that it receives. That could be done at the two stages I indicated in my pic. But if done at the latter stage, then your MIDI on Channel 6 would be change to channel 5 (after the logger) and you would here something different from the Kawai.
PS I do not see any Program Change to the 60s E piano.
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07-09-2020, 06:42 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Weird.
When are those Channel 5 MIDI events being created? Exactly what were you doing at the time?
ReaControllMIDI does not change the channel of any MIDI that it receives. That could be done at the two stages I indicated in my pic. But if done at the latter stage, then your MIDI on Channel 6 would be change to channel 5 (after the logger) and you would here something different from the Kawai.
PS I do not see any Program Change to the 60s E piano.
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The Channel 5 events are created the moment I hit play. If I clear logger, then change patches the changes appear on the correct channel(8)with the correct patch number. However, as soon as I hit play, the channel changes to 5 and the patch to 0. I can't find why. At times the same with Track 3, though the channel does not change. Set to strings, If I change it to another patch, as soon as I hit play it changes back to Strings.
I wonder if there is a problem with the Kawai? The manual has "Modern E. Piano" as Program 6 MSB 121 LSB 0. When I get it to work it is obviously the Harpsichord. While the Harpsichord which is Program 7 MSB 121 LSB 0, is obviously the vibraphone. I've checked the documentation with the ReaBank file over and over. The numbers are as in the manual, so it is quite possible there is an error in the manual. I'm not sure that explains the channel 5 thing.
My fist beginning 3D model in SolidWorks constantly failed. For days I Thought I was the moron, Solidworks tech support informed me, "Oh you just found a bug in our software." I had never used the software before.
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07-09-2020, 07:52 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Ok, Started fresh. Made a track set to Channel 1. I duplicated for tracks 2&3. Changed instruments and tracks to 2 & 3.
I hit play and Logger shows the channels changing to 1. Bug in the Kawai? Reaper? I notice the pitch wheel data is on the chosen channel. (Kawai doesn't have pitch wheel.)
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07-10-2020, 05:36 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
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Second screenshot
Setting ReaControlMIDI's (RCM's) channel to 2 does not change the MIDI notes received from your keyboard. That would need to be changed on the keyboard itself or by "Map input to channel" (see the MIDI routing pic I posted).
I guess the Pitch Wheel is sent by RCM
Similar for the third screenshot.
But there's no Channel 5 stuff in any of those screenshots. Where has it gone?
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Quote:
I wonder if there is a problem with the Kawai? The manual has "Modern E. Piano" as Program 6 MSB 121 LSB 0. When I get it to work it is obviously the Harpsichord. While the Harpsichord which is Program 7 MSB 121
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Within the PC message the program number is stored as a value of 0 ....127. RCM works like that too; and in General MIDI the first 10 programs are:
Quote:
0 Acoustic Grand Piano
1 Bright Acoustic Piano
2 Electric Grand Piano
3 Honky-tonk Piano
4 Electric Piano 1
5 Electric Piano 2
6 Harpsichord
7 Clavinet
8 Celesta
9 Glockenspiel
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I'll bet that the Kawai manual starts program numbering at 1; you would need to reduce its program numbers by 1 to get the number that Reaper (and other DAWs) use.
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Re the Channel 5 events
It almost looks like the Kawai is doing some sort of reset, dumping all on the settings for Channel 5 into Reaper. I have no idea why.
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07-10-2020, 06:34 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Second screenshot
Setting ReaControlMIDI's (RCM's) channel to 2 does not change the MIDI notes received from your keyboard. That would need to be changed on the keyboard itself or by "Map input to channel" (see the MIDI routing pic I posted).
I guess the Pitch Wheel is sent by RCM
Similar for the third screenshot.
But there's no Channel 5 stuff in any of those screenshots. Where has it gone?
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Within the PC message the program number is stored as a value of 0 ....127. RCM works like that too; and in General MIDI the first 10 programs are:
I'll bet that the Kawai manual starts program numbering at 1; you would need to reduce its program numbers by 1 to get the number that Reaper (and other DAWs) use.
-------------------------------
Re the Channel 5 events
It almost looks like the Kawai is doing some sort of reset, dumping all on the settings for Channel 5 into Reaper. I have no idea why.
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I made a new file from scratch. I may have inadvertently assigned Channel 5 to something in the old file, Though I don't remember ever selecting that channel for anything. A mouse twitch perhaps.
I just did as Xpander advised in post nine, and assigned the notes in the track to the three channels. On play the logs now show the correct channel. At first it did not play correctly, but now all sounds and tracks play correctly. Is a rewind necessary for changes to take effect?
Though I'm still skeptical that I can maintain this. I's currently working Yay! Thanks so much.
I still haven't got my head around channels completely. and currently have my tracks inputs set to "All channels". (see pic)
What would be the benefit if any to setting the three tracks inputs to the "2-MIDISPORT Uno (Kawai)" Ch 1,2,3 respectively?
I there a link some where to something like "MIDI channeling for morons?" You've provided info and I've read/watched videos and it's still not clear. It's the lexicon that I just don't have yet.
Also, I have contacted Kawai about their Program numbering. It just seem odd that only 3 of the programs sound wrong.
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07-11-2020, 09:57 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,681
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Good oh! Now take some time out. When you come back, go through what you've done and more and more of it will make sense.
Rewind necessary? Maybe, but I'm not sure exactly what you did.
If you set the three tracks inputs to the "2-MIDISPORT Uno (Kawai)" Ch 1,2,3 respectively, then those track will only receive MIDI on those channels. If your keyboard is sending MIDI on Ch 01, then only the first track will get it. If your keyboard is sending MIDI on Ch 02, then only the second track will get it. It is handy if you want the MIDI split onto different tracks for editing, routing etc. But there are other ways of splitting MIDI in Reaper, as you will discover later.
Try Googling "MIDI Channels for dummies" . Or just post a new thread on this forum. If I cannot help them someone-else surely will.
Kawai's numbering is not wrong; they just use a different convention
Or, as the management consultant said "I've got the highest standards of honest, integrity, diligence and professionalism. But, if you don't like those, I've got others."
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