Old 07-03-2020, 07:25 AM   #1
7heodoros
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Default Record above 20kHz

Hi everyone,

I am a voice actor and for the first time got a claim from a client telling me that the recording I submitted lacks the frequencies above 20kHz. I have attached an image so you can understand what I am talking about.

I am using a Sennheiser MKH416 with a Presonus Studio 26. According to the specs, they both top at 20kHz. I know that they may still catch some frequencies above that but the maximum I get is 22050 Hz.

I have tried changing the project properties to record at a sample rate of 48000 Hz and also disabled all Fxs, just to make sure there is nothing preventing the recording from going above 22050 Hz. I also tried switching between 16 bit and 24 bit (don't know if that makes any difference) but it doesn't work.

I thought it's the limitations of my components (mic and audio interface), but the client insists that it has to do with the preferences, so I decided to ask. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot in advance.
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:44 AM   #2
enroe
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Yes - well, if this is no joke - and no troll thread, then
I would carefully ask the client what he needs the audio
file for:

-- Is he composing a symphony for his dog?
-- Is he creating a song just for bats?
-- For any other animal?

Could be ... you never know ...
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:19 AM   #3
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Hi. I'll assume this is a genuine report.
Firstly I wonder how they knew? Do they run all recordings through a frequency analyser!

This is a long standing debate of course that often gets involved with the digital vs analogue argument. Here's a relatively recent and well referenced contribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btn572ZIC8k

So interesting theory. However as you mention, the problem is that typically microphones simply do not respond to such frequencies (or don't respond in any linear fashion). I am not an audio engineer so I could be wrong, but my guess is that is the limiting factor. Is the client er... experienced and well informed? Ask for a mic recommendation?

A last bit naughty thought... since (pace the audiophiles and researches) most of this signal will be inaudible if not imperceptible, is there a way of artifically putting in some harmonics at a low level to make it LOOK "better"?
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:26 AM   #4
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you can add a white noise filtered at 16kHz to 20kHz with a very very very low (-40db or less) level just to fill the spectrum and make your client happy
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:27 AM   #5
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Project setting to record at 48000 is not the same thing as setting your interface to actually grab 48000. As a voice actor, I suppose it’s possible they could be doing things to your voice - like slowing it down - which might move that 22K cutoff down into the audible range where it would start to be missed. Course 48K doesn’t help that much either. What sample rate do they need from you?
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:15 AM   #6
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Record “well, can you hear this..?” as a loop at 192kHz, and pitch shift it up above 20kHz.

High-pass it at 20k to remove any translated subsonic artefacts and place it as the last track in your mix.

Render at 96kHz and send to your client.

Practise smug grin at home...


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Old 07-03-2020, 10:40 AM   #7
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Nice one Nathan,

So simple when you know how
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:27 AM   #8
Fabian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7heodoros View Post
Hi everyone,

I am a voice actor and for the first time got a claim from a client telling me that the recording I submitted lacks the frequencies above 20kHz.
<snip>
Do they really think that your voice has anything up in those regions? I would say most voices lack frequencies above 20 kHz.

A female soprano apparently goes up to 4.5 kHz or so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano)
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:38 AM   #9
Allybye
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Rather unusual claim!

What is the basis for the claim?

As a voice actor you could reasonably be expected to record in quality the full range of your voice frequencies.

Most professional engineers, given the spectrum you show up to 22+ kHz, would sign off that you have indeed done that. (Not withstanding the fact that the spectrum shown does not look like voice given the high level of content above 10 to 15kHz!).
The standard accepted audio range is 20Hz to 20kHz but most people apart from the very young cannot hear as high as that. Very little sound produced approaches even a significant amount at 20kHz though it is not impossible. Very remote that the voice produces anything that can be heard much above 10kHz!

Some claim there is hypersonic hearing, i.e. sound above the accepted upper limit, but it is just a claim and not scientifically proven as other tests do not confirm it. (Scientific proof requires repeatable demonstration).

Would your recording have any value with frequency content above 20kHz? Can you client prove it?

So it all gets to the question of what was contracted with you either explicitly or implicitly and was it agreed? Depending on your jurisdiction the contract needs to be documented of sometimes just agreed verbally but the latter always is difficult to prove in some circumstances! If it can be shown higher frequencies were expected is it a reasonable criteria and does it have any value?

Last edited by Allybye; 07-03-2020 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Do they really think that your voice has anything up in those regions? I would say most voices lack frequencies above 20 kHz.

A female soprano apparently goes up to 4.5 kHz or so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano)
There’s a lot more to a vocal recording than the fundamental and its harmonics which is mostly in the vowels. Many of our fricatives and stops are more like white noise and some have pretty fast transients and just generally extend way up above. You go ahead and lowpass your vocals at 5K and see how far that gets you. With bare voice, even losing things above 10K will sound pretty unnatural. And yes those noises extend in a natural sequence up above 20K. No, we can’t hear them when played back at normal speed, but like I said, you slow it down to half time and you’ll definitely be happy you caught that extra octave.
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
There’s a lot more to a vocal recording than the fundamental and its harmonics which is mostly in the vowels. Many of our fricatives and stops are more like white noise and some have pretty fast transients and just generally extend way up above. You go ahead and lowpass your vocals at 5K and see how far that gets you. With bare voice, even losing things above 10K will sound pretty unnatural. And yes those noises extend in a natural sequence up above 20K. No, we can’t hear them when played back at normal speed, but like I said, you slow it down to half time and you’ll definitely be happy you caught that extra octave.
You are right of course. But I always think of the fact that telephone lines have a bandwidth of only 4 KHz. Not that such quality would be acceptable for any voice acting or music, but it is interesting that we don't need much frequency range for perfectly intelligible human speech -- just needs to be the right frequencies.
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:29 PM   #12
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At the risk of repeating what others have already said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7heodoros View Post
I am a voice actor and for the first time got a claim from a client telling me that the recording I submitted lacks the frequencies above 20kHz. I have attached an image so you can understand what I am talking about.
Your image clearly shows frequency content above 20kHz, so that's a little confusing.

Quote:
I am using a Sennheiser MKH416 with a Presonus Studio 26. According to the specs, they both top at 20kHz. I know that they may still catch some frequencies above that but the maximum I get is 22050 Hz.
And that's the most you can ever get at a 44.1k sample rate. The max frequency that can be represented is always half the sample rate. 44100/2 is 22050, which is why 22050Hz is your limit.

As you say, the mic is likely to hear well above 20kHz, but exactly how much is unknown, because their spec sheet doesn't show it. (Like that mic a lot, by the way.)

The Presonus 26 is spec'ed at "20 Hz - 20 kHz (±0.1 dB, min gain, 48 kHz)". That can be interpreted to mean "between 20 and 20k you have a flat response within .1dB when using the 48k sample rate at minimum gain". Since the device goes to 192k sample rate, one would hope that it can pass up to 96kHz, but who knows.

Quote:
I have tried changing the project properties to record at a sample rate of 48000 Hz and also disabled all Fxs, just to make sure there is nothing preventing the recording from going above 22050 Hz. I also tried switching between 16 bit and 24 bit (don't know if that makes any difference) but it doesn't work.
Bit depth will make no difference. Sample rate and gear will. As someone else says, you have to change the interface sample rate, as well as the project sample rate, or at least make sure that both are operating at the desired rate. If they are, you should see content above 22050Hz.

A 48k sample rate will record up to 24kHz (48/2=24) as long as your mic is capturing it.

Quote:
I thought it's the limitations of my components (mic and audio interface), but the client insists that it has to do with the preferences, so I decided to ask. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot in advance.
As others have pointed out, unless the client intends to do some kind of sound-design stuff involving slowing the audio down, they are apparently not well-informed about what matters in this situation (a diplomatic way of saying they are worrying about something ridiculous). I.e. if we're talking about regular character acting or narrative voice-over, even with significant FX processing, there's absolutely no need to worry about the >22050Hz region and they are wasting their/your time. But the client is always right, so... try changing the sample rates and give 'em what they want. :-)
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:52 PM   #13
7heodoros
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Thank you all for your responses. I don't really understand why the client needs more than 22050 but... client is always right...

Very helpful information there. I changed the settings on my interface to 48kHz, but for some reason, I can't record anything on Reaper.The cursor doesn't move and the input level doesn't move/change.

This is what I did:

1. I changed the project properties to 48 kHz (image 1, 2). Ticking the "Allow project to override sample rate" box (image 1) on/off didn't help either.
2. I changed the settings on the interface (image 4)
3. Since it didn't work, I even tried changing the settings on Windows (image 5)

What am I missing here??
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File Type: jpg image 1.jpg (42.1 KB, 145 views)
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File Type: jpg image 5.jpg (56.9 KB, 137 views)
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:55 PM   #14
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You shouldn't be using DirectSound, you should be using the proper ASIO drivers for your interface. When that's up and going, you don't need to worry about the windows sound config options; the sound configs will be handled by reaper and by Universal Control.

(edit: in other words, just switch the drop-down in reaper from "DirectSound" to the ASIO drivers and configure appropriately. You might need to set the start and end channels in that dialog for all inputs/outputs to be exposed.)
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Old 07-03-2020, 03:06 PM   #15
7heodoros
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Woohoo!!

It worked. Thank you so much!!
You´re a genius

Hope the client likes it now.

Thanks everybody
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Old 07-03-2020, 04:05 PM   #16
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With that sweet sweet 23-24k top-end, instead of the dull and lifeless 20-22k top-end, the client will have to admit that the mix sounds especially clear and the stereo field especially dimensional. :-) /s
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Old 07-03-2020, 06:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clepsydrae View Post
With that sweet sweet 23-24k top-end, instead of the dull and lifeless 20-22k top-end, the client will have to admit that the mix sounds especially clear and the stereo field especially dimensional. :-) /s
Dog even noticed the improvements. 2 paws up from fido.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:07 PM   #18
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Everything above 12 kHz is pure silence for me, must be a very young guy who has complained...
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Old 07-04-2020, 02:21 AM   #19
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....but whether we can hear (or 'perceive' ) it or not at least there is noise content high up!
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