Old 10-02-2019, 07:21 PM   #1
Erikson
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Default Laptop for live use, again!

Hi all! I hope you're doing great!
So, I know this subject has been discussed a thousand times before, but I have some answers that I still have doubts...
So, I have bought a new laptop and I will use it live.
The specs:
Lenovo Thinkpad E431
I7 3632qm
16gb Ram
480gb ssd

Audient ID14 as usb audio interface.

I intend to use Windows 7 x64.
I've been using Reaper for 10 years now and I love it. But when it comes to using it live, it's a whole new thing.
I have two kinds of gigs:
With my main pop rock band, where I'll use only Helix Native and a midi controller.
With my secondary band, I will need a BIG amount of processing.
My chain on Track 1: Helix Native
My Chain on track 2: Jam Origin Midi Guitar 2 - And it will send to all the other tracks.

The other tracks: IK multimedia Modo Bass and Sample Tank 3 with Piank, Native Instruments Kontakt with Session Horns and Xpand! 2 occasionally.

The main problem here is that for a considerably low latency with Midi Guitar, the buffer has to be 128 or even less...
But then the drops come.
I have read all the optimization guides online (even the one written by Cantabile's creator, sorry!), and I am confident that it will work... But I still wanted some orientation.
What can I do to have a stable system without issues?

Thanks!
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:01 PM   #2
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Make sure your system is not running nVidia GPU. The drivers cause significant overhead compared to AMD drivers. To maintain very low latencies during live use, you should also avoid using sends, any fx on the master buss and plugins with high PDC (which you can view in Performance Meter). Use no higher than 44.1kHz sample rate. There is a preference to not process muted tracks; take advantage of that when possible. Disable your wireless adapter.

It's all a balancing act. Above all test, test test! Give Murphy's law every opportunity to throw you a curve ball before you take your rig on stage. And don't change anything at the last minute. Also keep in mind that it's hot on stage and overheating a laptop can be an unexpected disaster. If you want a reliable setup, dedicate the computer to it and take it offline. Check your email with your phone if you have to.

The heartbreaking news is that even when you've done all you can, it's still only the most expensive audio devices that can deal with a very busy project and provide very low latencies... Unless you're playing super fast, 256 buffer size can be very manageable. RME drivers for example are miles better than most. I'm not familiar with Audient.

Oh, and welcome...
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Make sure your system is not running nVidia GPU. The drivers cause significant overhead compared to AMD drivers. To maintain very low latencies during live use, you should also avoid using sends, any fx on the master buss and plugins with high PDC (which you can view in Performance Meter). Use no higher than 44.1kHz sample rate. There is a preference to not process muted tracks; take advantage of that when possible. Disable your wireless adapter.

It's all a balancing act. Above all test, test test! Give Murphy's law every opportunity to throw you a curve ball before you take your rig on stage. And don't change anything at the last minute. Also keep in mind that it's hot on stage and overheating a laptop can be an unexpected disaster. If you want a reliable setup, dedicate the computer to it and take it offline. Check your email with your phone if you have to.

The heartbreaking news is that even when you've done all you can, it's still only the most expensive audio devices that can deal with a very busy project and provide very low latencies... Unless you're playing super fast, 256 buffer size can be very manageable. RME drivers for example are miles better than most. I'm not familiar with Audient.

Oh, and welcome...

Thanks a lot, foxAsteria!
Some questions came to.mind while reading.
First: What does PDC stand for? (Sorry, I am from Brazil )
And why is using sends a bad thing?
I mean, if I am going to use 4 sample libraries, I'd have to use 4 Jam Origin's instances, which I think would kill my setup! haha
Audient has been really good on my desktop for over 2 years now, but this will be my first time using it live...
I wont use wifi on it, but am willing to use my phone tethering on its usb, so I can mirror my screen to an ipad and leave it away from any drunk vocalist lol
Would it cause a lot of impact?
Thanks again!
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:48 PM   #4
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PDC=Plugin delay compensation. Some require more processing time than others so the whole signal gets delayed.

Experiment with sends if you like. There are probably situations where they are more efficient, like if you do all the processing there and none on the sending tracks. I just find that if my project gets overloaded, muting them recovers a lot of performance and allows me to do some more recording without resorting to freezing tracks. It might just be the way I use them.

But like I said, you can just mute tracks you aren't using to save CPU, so extra instances of fx only becomes a problem if you start running out of RAM. SWS Live Configs can manage the muting for you as well for switching between configs quickly.
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:40 PM   #5
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PDC=Plugin delay compensation. Some require more processing time than others so the whole signal gets delayed.

Experiment with sends if you like. There are probably situations where they are more efficient, like if you do all the processing there and none on the sending tracks. I just find that if my project gets overloaded, muting them recovers a lot of performance and allows me to do some more recording without resorting to freezing tracks. It might just be the way I use them.

But like I said, you can just mute tracks you aren't using to save CPU, so extra instances of fx only becomes a problem if you start running out of RAM. SWS Live Configs can manage the muting for you as well for switching between configs quickly.

Thanks for clarifying!
Fortunately, Helix sounds isn't too cpu consuming, so its a good thing!
And I've been messing around with midi guitar on my desktop and even though my desktop is needing a disk wipe urgently and that means there must be many things holding my pc down.
Chrome was open with 4 tabs, and I was running only one track with midi guitar and :
2 instances of Sampletank
Xpand
Modo Bass
and friedlander on Kontakt

everything on the same track (maybe you're right about not routing?).

All of that using buffer at 64, which is really low!
I have set one of those settings on the "buffer" tab to let "64 CPUs" for real time processing.
IDK if 64 is a good number, but it drove all those VST's flawlessly!
I am confident that it will work.
Wish me luck!
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:54 PM   #6
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Hey if you got your buffer that low then I think you'll be golden.

One last thing I'll mention is that it's probably worth finding out how many CPU's for live fx multiprocessing is optimal on your system. On mine it's 3.

I found this out by arming tracks and intentionally overloading a project with plugins until it started to crackle and playing around with that number in prefs/buffering. You would think the more the merrier, but I found that performance decreased with more or less than that.

But yea, good luck.
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:31 PM   #7
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Laptop hardware is optimized for low power consumption for long battery live. This is the contrary of optimization for high performance. Hence it's not a good idea to use a Laptop for low latency application.

-Michael
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:37 PM   #8
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Not that you're wrong, but it's a strange thing to suggest, considering how ubiquitous laptops are on stages for at least the last 10 years...I mean, I can't even run a buffer of 64 with my new PC and RME card, so it rather seems to be a normal and workable idea to take that lappy setup onstage.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:38 PM   #9
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There was a run of laptops that were designed for a bit of heavy lifting and not just browsing Buttbook. The 2009 - 2012 Macbook Pros. New SSD and off you go. Avoid anything post-Jobs from Apple though!
There are a few gamer laptops available too. They're usually just as expensive as a Mac and they are big.

If this is for live use...
That leads to needing low latency. You need to hear the here and now in sync with the output from the computer.
That leads to shopping for an audio interface that has a baseline lower latency than average.

The audio interface choice for a live performance or live sound system is the most important part. Get a unit with a decent baseline low latency and you will be able to run with a larger block size in your DAW.
You want a unit that lets you achieve under 10ms round trip latency with a block size of 128 samples at minimum. Some of the budget USB interfaces will require the block size dialed down to 64 samples or less to hit that latency point with their hardware. That uses up your CPU processing headroom for plugins and restricts your plugin choices to only those with lower inherent latency than your system block size.
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Old 10-04-2019, 06:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Hey if you got your buffer that low then I think you'll be golden.

One last thing I'll mention is that it's probably worth finding out how many CPU's for live fx multiprocessing is optimal on your system. On mine it's 3.

I found this out by arming tracks and intentionally overloading a project with plugins until it started to crackle and playing around with that number in prefs/buffering. You would think the more the merrier, but I found that performance decreased with more or less than that.

But yea, good luck.

Hey! Thanks for the heads up!I achieved that on my pc, which has a kinda powerful CPU.
On my laptop I am using 128, which is still good! I just finished sound check and everything was flawless. Lets hope for the best during the gig!
I am sorry for the little delay answering. I have been caught up finishing my midi controller!
Here's a image of the setup, plus the controller.
https://imgur.com/a/ZIluGF5

Quote:
Laptop hardware is optimized for low power consumption for long battery live. This is the contrary of optimization for high performance. Hence it's not a good idea to use a Laptop for low latency application.

-Michael
I second what foxAsteria said.
Keyboard players have been using it for quite a while. The only difference is that keyboards already output midi. Guitars, don't. That's what loads the CPU a lot.
But there are lots of tweaks to do to not save energy and unlock power!

Quote:
There was a run of laptops that were designed for a bit of heavy lifting and not just browsing Buttbook. The 2009 - 2012 Macbook Pros. New SSD and off you go. Avoid anything post-Jobs from Apple though!
There are a few gamer laptops available too. They're usually just as expensive as a Mac and they are big.

If this is for live use...
That leads to needing low latency. You need to hear the here and now in sync with the output from the computer.
That leads to shopping for an audio interface that has a baseline lower latency than average.

The audio interface choice for a live performance or live sound system is the most important part. Get a unit with a decent baseline low latency and you will be able to run with a larger block size in your DAW.
You want a unit that lets you achieve under 10ms round trip latency with a block size of 128 samples at minimum. Some of the budget USB interfaces will require the block size dialed down to 64 samples or less to hit that latency point with their hardware. That uses up your CPU processing headroom for plugins and restricts your plugin choices to only those with lower inherent latency than your system block size.
Yes! i am aware of that.
I am negotiating a gamer notebook.
My intention is putting it behind, so size doesn't matter.
Or maybe a rack, just like keyboard players use.
I'll be fine!
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:09 PM   #11
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...there are lots of tweaks to do to not save energy and unlock power!...
I am negotiating a gamer notebook.
Yep. Dedicated "Gamer" notebooks obviously avoid some of the hardware optimization for longest battery life. (They also might be called "Live Music laptops" )

-Michael
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Old 10-06-2019, 04:13 AM   #12
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(They also might be called "Live Music laptops" )

-Michael
Which sounds way cooler in our case! hehe
Going to pick my gamer laptop now!
Whish me luck!
Oh, and BTW, off topic question:
Why does your profile picture says " Good Luck " in Brazilian Portuguese? hehe
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Old 10-06-2019, 06:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Why does your profile picture says " Good Luck " in Brazilian Portuguese? hehe
It''s the name of my Band (see the links below).
The name was chosen after the well known song by VANESSA DA MATA & BEN HARPER, when we had a singer who was born in Rio and we proudly performed that song.

-Michael
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:28 AM   #14
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Yep. Dedicated "Gamer" notebooks obviously avoid some of the hardware optimization for longest battery life. (They also might be called "Live Music laptops" )

-Michael
I was thinking of avoiding "gamer " laptops as I assumed they'd prioritise graphics card performance over audio....is that a mistaken assumption ?
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:13 AM   #15
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I was thinking of avoiding "gamer " laptops as I assumed they'd prioritise graphics card performance over audio....is that a mistaken assumption ?
Avoid nVidia GPU's since the drivers are known to affect DPC latency more than others. The GPU doesn't get in the way of audio because audio is processed by CPU, but they generate more heat and consume more power.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:47 AM   #16
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Re GPU: many laptops use shared memory for GPU and main processor. This will degrade the CPU (and hence audio) performance.

"Gaming" Laptops usually have a dedicated Graphics RAM-.

-Michael
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:11 PM   #17
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Regarding the nVidia drivers and those problems, I assume that if I don't even install its drivers, the GPU won't be a problem, right?
Also, having some hard time with Windows 10, as it has many more tweaks to be made...
But I won't give up!
I even though of using Linux, but setting my plugins with Wine hasn't been successful.


Quote:
It''s the name of my Band (see the links below).
The name was chosen after the well known song by VANESSA DA MATA & BEN HARPER, when we had a singer who was born in Rio and we proudly performed that song.

-Michael
"É só isso. Não tem mais jeito!
Acabou... Boa sorte!"
Now that makes perfect sense! Awesome song and really cool to know you have a Brazilian singer!
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:07 PM   #18
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Regarding the nVidia drivers and those problems, I assume that if I don't even install its drivers,
You'd have to force Windows to use generic drivers because it will try it's darndest to install them for you automatically.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
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"É só isso. Não tem mais jeito!
Acabou... Boa sorte!"
Exactly
You can hear our version -> www.bschnell.de/b, # 11 in the playlist.

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Now that makes perfect sense! Awesome song and really cool to know you have a Brazilian singer!
Unfortunately she moved to another town two years ago. But we now do have a great new (German) singer. (#1 .. #8 in the playlist).
"Boa Sorte" had been done with support by my son for the male voice. Right now we are trying to include a second (female) singer with the band. We already did try some first steps to do the "Boa Sorte" duet again.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 10-08-2019 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:04 PM   #20
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mschnell, I will take a listen!
Now, an update regarding my question.
I have followed every single possible guide for low latency, used latencyMon and troubleshooted everything I needed (not that there was anything lol), and the results are PRETTY good!

I forgot to mention that in the Middle time I have sent the lenovo back to the dealer and got myself a Samsung x50
8gb ram
i7 8550u
Ssd M.2 250gb

The results, as I said are impressive.
With one instance of helix native, using all possible blocks (Just for testing purposes), I could go down to 8 buffers only! That's CRAZY low!

With Jam Origin, Helix 2 Sampletank, 1 Modo bass, 1 Kontakt (session Horns, which is really cpu hungry), I was able to use 64 with some random cracks, and 128 with almost 0 cracks!
I think I am setup!
Thanks for all the help!
In case someone wants to follow (almost) everything I did, here are some links:

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=174208 (Mainly step 3, barebones)
Notice that disabling services will stop many things, such as remote desktop, internet and many others, so do some research before stopping them, specially if you will use the laptop for things other than Real Time Audio.

Other than that, I have disabled EVERYTHING I don't use at the device manager (BE CAREFUL HERE, it can make your device malfunction).
I have disabled Network devices, Bluetooth, Webcam, printer...
Everything I could.

I hope that gives some light for you!
Thanks again for all the help!
Cheers,

Erikson
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:24 AM   #21
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Update:
Yesterday I have had the chance to test the setup live.
I have used only Helix Native, but the results are amazing.
I have done two gigs of around 2 or 3 hours, with buffer set to 32, and everything ran fine!
I should say that I was using Hairless midi and Loop Midi, as I still wasn't able to make my midi controller work as standalone midi.
So, even that those are not too cpu consuming, it still counts!
Ah, I forgot to mention.
I have tested Cantabile and Gig Performer.
Gig performer is hard to understand and it has a poor performance.
Cantabile is amazingly easy to understand everything I needed, it has the nicest feature, which is you can make every plugin full screen (which Reaper does in a certain way).
But it has a little decrease in performance compared to Reaper.
I have setup everything according to their forums, tried all the variations, and still, wasn't able to achieve the same performance.
I mean, the differences were VERY subtle, but they were certainly there.
I'd use Cantabile because it's easier to accomplish certain things (even though I have been using Reaper for many years), but I prefer performance over ease to use, and as Reaper isn't hard to understand (only a matter to sit and search), and I almost never need to do last time tweaks, I will use it!
Maybe will use SWS in the Future, IDK.
for now I am good!
Thanks again!
Cheers,

Erikson

Last edited by Erikson; 10-13-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:35 AM   #22
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Definitely install SWS. It doesn't change anything about core Reaper; only adds more possibilities. Can't do any harm.
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:36 AM   #23
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Update:
Yesterday I have had the chance to test the setup live.
I have used only Helix Native, but the results are amazing.
I have done two gigs of around 2 or 3 hours, with buffer set to 32, and everything ran fine!
I should say that I was using Hairless midi and Loop Midi, as I still wasn't able to make my midi controller work as standalone midi.
So, even that those are not too cpu consuming, it still counts!
Ah, I forgot to say that I have tested both Cantabile and Gig Performer.
Gig performer has a much poor performance, and it's hard to use.
Cantabile is REALLY easy to use (learned all I needed in less than one hour), but its performance is a bit worse than reaper.
I mean, it's almost too subtle, but it's there.
I'd use Cantabile for its ease to use, but I prefer performance over ease to use.
As I almost never do Last time adjusts, Reaper won't be an issue.
So, I think I am good for now!
Thanks again!
Cheers,

Erikson
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:42 AM   #24
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Definitely install SWS. It doesn't change anything about core Reaper; only adds more possibilities. Can't do any harm.
Yes, that's one of my goals. I have seen many good things about SWS, so I will definitely give it a shot!
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