REAPER as a live sound mixer

[digaleet]

Hello! I met a live sound engineer the other day who said he was using -REAPER- and some firewire pre's as his mixing console for live sound gigs.... At first I thought I must have heard him incorrectly.... I've heard of people using computers for live sound mixing, but I thought you needed specialized software like SAC and specialized ultra low latency hardware...

Anyhoo... I have a Presonus Firepod / FP10... I tried setting up a reaper project for use as a live sound mixing environment.... I really only have 8 usable inputs and outputs, so my test project is currently only 8 inputs.... Using the sends and hardware routing I was able to set up 4 monitor mixes, a stereo main, and a stereo headphone output.... Each channel has REAPER flavored EQ, Compressor, Gate and Reverb plugins (with the exception of phones)...

And well, it appears to be working... I haven't even begun to tweak my asio settings to reduce latency, and it already appears to be quite usable....

Anyhoo... I guess where I'm going with this story is I wanna know if anyone else is using REAPER as a live sound mixer. How successfully? Any tips for a brave young adventure seeker like myself?

P.s. I know I'm crazy.

[martifingers]

Maybe crazy but maybe not for using REASON..

I too am very interested in this and other people's experiences (although there is another thread somewhere that covers some of this territory.
At live gigs we often play pre-recorded stuff as background during the intervals... presumably this could be all prepared in advance on a couple of spare tracks.

[Andy Hamm]

I've been doing this for a while now, and I've tested quite a few DAWs for this purpose with Reaper being the hands down winner. Protools is also an option, but Reaper has been behaving flawlesly for the past 1 or two now.

There are a few things that I would advise you to do to get the most out of using Reaper as a FOH DAW (I own FOHDAW.com, which used to have all of this info there, but there is very little interest on the subject).

1. Stop using a snake. You can eliminate the 35 meters of copper that the mic and line level signals have to run through to reach the console as well as the 35 meter trip back that your returns have to make but setting up a mix rack and controlling that from FOH. I use VNC to control the mixrack PC that is set up side stage, either wirelessly or via an ethernet run.

2. Get rtpMIDI working on your FOH Laptop and connect it to your mix rack. This will allow you to attach your control surface to your laptop, giving you mobility while still having physical faders. I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I don't think that there is any product currently on the market that allows you to run a control surface wirelessly atm, although you could use the above software with anything that allows you ta connect a MIDI control surface.

3. Get, or make a theme that works better for live workflow. Here is mine Tourtech Theme. You don't want solo buttons anywhere as they make audio rip through FOH.

4. If you want an aviom type system, or a second virtual console, look into the web interface . I've made seperate web based monitor mixers, allthough you need to follow a strict input template which makes it only viable when you are working with one act. I generally don't give musicians control over wedges, and not everyone I work with likes IEMs - so working on this is low on my personal priority list.

5. You can build a system processor or just use a SUB output. I rarely do this (I do use a sub out more often though) but it can be done and it has saved my butt at least once.


The final points are to take advantage of some of the things you can do with Reaper, that you can't do on many other consoles.

For instance:

Monitors - set up one mix, eq it, and then drag the EQ to all of your other mixes. Assuming that you have a matched stable of wedges, this gives you a very good starting point as far as EQing your wedges go. Then set up the primary vocal or whatever in each of the mixes. I then drag those sends to the other mixes, turn it down to 75% on the first drag, and when someone asks you for something that is not in their mix, but is in someone elses, you can just drag and drop the send. I mix 6 mixes plus 2 IEM mixes from FOH in this manner.

Plug-ins - I use primarily the Reaper plug-ins, but I have a few extra little things that I like to use as well. Make sure you test plugins before you attempt to use them live, as some will do wierd things. I use a few Voxengo plugs, SPAN and Overtone EQ, as well as KarmaEQ for a 31 band - and that's pretty much it besides ReaEQ, ReaComp, ReaXcomp, ReaGate, Resamplamatic5000.

You can do live drum replacement. I use Resamplematic5000 with Reagate for this and I mix in some of the original kick below the sample threshold as Regate does not send velocity.

Use side chains. I use a comp with a sidechain on my pre-show tunes with the MC mics, or whichever mic someone might go up to durring pre-show in the side chain. I can go do whatever I want, and if they want to make an announcment, all they need to do is walk up to the mic and talk and the tunes will fade out and then gradually back in when they are done. There are so many uses for side chains live that will make your life so much easier.

I started writing a guide on this subject, but I've been too busy to get back to it.

There are a few things that I would hammer home if you are thinking about going this route though:

1. It won't be accepted by the industry. It's a pc that you put together and basically a mixer you made yourself. There are no standards, so systems can vary widely from one to the next as far as stability and usability goes. I built two mix racks, and I'm the only one that mixes on them - if you own a soundco or rent out gear, this is NOT the route you want to take.

2. There is a prebuilt system out there called SAC. SAC has been around for a while, and I did evaluate it when I was looking at FOH DAWs, in the end I chose Reaper. You might like SAC better and the things that were deal breakers to me, might not mattter to you.

3. Build your system to be bullit proof. You absolutely need a UPS on your mix rack. The mix rack should be a dedicated PC, it should not be connected to the internet, and the os should be as slim as possible. You want it tweeked for stability, so overclocking, wares or anything shady is a big no-no. Don't load it down with VST's, keep the entire system as lean as possible.

4. The mix rack itself needs to be neet and well laid out. You don't want to be reaching in the back of a rack to plug and unplug things, use a proper patch bay. The last thing you need is to bump an optical cable while fumbing around in the back of the rack. Keep it all neat and tidy.

I'm sure someone else will chime in and fill in some of the other points. It's a fairly wide topic. I think that in the end you'll find that a 32 Channel FOHDAW costs about as much as an X32 - however it is far more powerful than any low end digital console.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

Get rtpMIDI working on your FOH Laptop and connect it to your mix rack.

But how would you connect the MIDI controllers? It looks like you would need another whole separate computer to use this. The WiRanger USB2 over wi-fi radio is transparent to the computer. Your 'FOH' computer just sees the USB devices - no drivers or background apps for the WiRanger. Put 13db antennas on the units and it appears to run at around 1W. Can't say enough good things about this product!

However you do it, real faders under your fingers are mandatory. Mixing with only a touch surface would be a bad experience.

Then a 2nd wi-fi network connection for remote desktop or whatever.

I actually tried the TouchOSC stuff a couple weeks ago and it was a spectacular failure! It seems to need to send even more data back and forth than remote desktop and it just drops packets instead of waiting.

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by serr

But how would you connect the MIDI controllers? It looks like you would need another whole separate computer to use this. The WiRanger USB2 over wi-fi radio is transparent to the computer. Your 'FOH' computer just sees the USB devices - no drivers or background apps for the WiRanger.

Then a 2nd wi-fi network connection for remote desktop or whatever.

I actually tried the TouchOSC stuff a couple weeks ago and it was a spectacular failure! It seems to send even more data back and forth than remote desktop!

I install rtpMIDI on both PCs, my mix rack and my FOH laptop. It uses the same ethernet or wifi that VNC uses. I believe that in the Mac world, you have MIDI over ethernet, so adding rtpMIDI is a moot point for you. (Windows does not have MIDI over IP)

rtpMIDI will allow you to attach a MIDI controller to your laptop and have it seen by the mixrack as if it was directly connected to the mix rack.

[serr]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

I install rtpMIDI on both PCs, my mix rack and my FOH laptop. It uses the same ethernet or wifi that VNC uses. I believe that in the Mac world, you have MIDI over ethernet, so adding rtpMIDI is a moot point for you. (Windows does not have MIDI over IP)

rtpMIDI will allow you to attach a MIDI controller to your laptop and have it seen by the mixrack as if it was directly connected to the mix rack.

OK, you're using an entire separate computer to use that. Walking around with a laptop in addition to the MIDI controllers and iPad would be too much IMHO. Are you still setting up a static front of house location?

No MIDI over ethernet here. USB MIDI controllers thru the WiRanger USB over wi-fi radios.

[serr]

Wasn't me was it?

I was at Jazz in the Park in Milwaukee last night with my rig.

I've been mixing live music with Reaper for 3 years now. Better sound quality than any mixing board less than a real Neve or SSL. More flexible than any of the cumbersome digital boards. Infinitely modular and expandable. I wouldn't ever consider going back to hardware mixers.

Basic rig outlined in signature. The sound quality obviously starts with your mic pre's and converters. Reaper's 64 bit mix engine preserves every last detail and there's headroom for miles.

I can mix up to 36 inputs, usually 5 or 6 delays and verbs but I can run probably infinite fx. I simultaneously record all the inputs and any fx I run to multitrack. Running at 48k (24 bit of course) right now as a concession to the plugin load I like to use. SSL channel strips on most inputs, deessers on vox tracks, L2 for system protection for a starting point. And then I run 10 monitor channels. Sample buffer at 192. My round trip latency from analog input to analog output is 11ms (below perception - or, perfect time alignment when the drums are 11' behind the main speakers).

Everything is run by wireless control. MIDI controllers over a USB wi-fi radio and the iPad running remote desktop. The rig is in a 8 space shock mounted rack that will sit in a back or side corner of the stage. Front of house setup and snake running are obsolete concepts from the past.

Normally I can roam at least 300' from stage with zero lag in my controls. You may have noticed me hanging a little close to the stage last night because downtown Milwaukee is a freakin wi-fi battlezone! This happens maybe 1 out of 20 shows for me where I'll have to move a little closer to home base (the stage) if I need to do some on point dub fx.

Reaper in OSX is just outrageously stable. I can insert plugins while mixing/recording with no glitches and no worries. Record arm and start a new track at any time, etc. Reaper just doesn't stop or crash. The Mac Pro is my main machine for this but the Macbook Pro (started with this but it's backup now) can handle it with about 90% CPU use.

[lpcrispo]

Originally Posted by serr

Wasn't me was it?

I was at Jazz in the Park in Milwaukee last night with my rig.

I've been mixing live music with Reaper for 3 years now. Better sound quality than any mixing board less than a real Neve or SSL. More flexible than any of the cumbersome digital boards. Infinitely modular and expandable. I wouldn't ever consider going back to hardware mixers.

Basic rig outlined in signature. The sound quality obviously starts with your mic pre's and converters. Reaper's 64 bit mix engine preserves every last detail and there's headroom for miles.

I can mix up to 36 inputs, usually 5 or 6 delays and verbs but I can run probably infinite fx. I simultaneously record all the inputs and any fx I run to multitrack. Running at 48k (24 bit of course) right now as a concession to the plugin load I like to use. SSL channel strips on most inputs, deessers on vox tracks, L2 for system protection for a starting point. And then I run 10 monitor channels. Sample buffer at 192. My round trip latency from analog input to analog output is 11ms (below perception - or, perfect time alignment when the drums are 11' behind the main speakers).

Everything is run by wireless control. MIDI controllers over a USB wi-fi radio and the iPad running remote desktop. The rig is in a 8 space shock mounted rack that will sit in a back or side corner of the stage. Front of house setup and snake running are obsolete concepts from the past.

Normally I can roam at least 300' from stage with zero lag in my controls. You may have noticed me hanging a little close to the stage last night because downtown Milwaukee is a freakin wi-fi battlezone! This happens maybe 1 out of 20 shows for me where I'll have to move a little closer to home base (the stage) if I need to do some on point dub fx.

Reaper in OSX is just outrageously stable. I can insert plugins while mixing/recording with no glitches and no worries. Record arm and start a new track at any time, etc. Reaper just doesn't stop or crash.

Really really nice setup here!
if we ever do a show in Milwaukee I know who to contact

[sstillwell]

Originally Posted by serr

Better sound quality than any mixing board less than a real Neve or SSL.

With True preamps and Apogee conversion? I should freakin' hope so!

You should get a little Benchmark or a Lavry or something and run it on the S/PDIF output of the 828 so you can have FOH outs that have analog stages that match the quality of your input conversion.




As long as you're going that far.




Just sayin'.






Scott

PS: I think I'm jealous. I've got a rig set up to do much the same, but running SAC with a MOTU 2408 and 3x Focusrite Octopre MkII Dynamic It's racked up in an 11U rack and is too awkward to use a lot for my own gigs, but when I've had it out and running, it blew away most other systems I've heard.

True. Apogee. Boggling.

With 24ch of inputs, I can't get the computer, interface and I/O w/powerstrip into < 8 RU, so I may need to break it up into smaller subunits. CPU rack + I/O Racks, each of which can be 6 RU and easy to carry. It has to be one-man moveable, one-man lift.

Anyway, lots of good ideas.

[Andy Hamm]

I have 2 Mix Racks, MR-1 and MR-2. MR-2 is my 'walk-in rack' and it is an 8 space rack with 24 i/o. I could have fit it into a 5 space rack, but it has an 18.5 " monitor that fits into the back of the rack lid, and it wouldn't fit into my 6 space rack.

The 8 space rack contains the following:

• 1U PC
• MOTU 2408 MKII
• 3x ADA8K
• UPS
• 18.5" LED Monitor
• USB Keyboard & Track ball
• Output Patchbay
• Wireless router

Going with a smaller rack would mean that I would have to cary the UPS and the Monitor seperately, which I'd rather not do.

I have used the 6 space rack as my RF rack wich has my IEMs, wired headphone amps and my wireless mics in it, that way when I show up at a venue, I can choose to bring in nothing, either or both racks.

Originally Posted by sstillwell

PS: I think I'm jealous. I've got a rig set up to do much the same, but running SAC with a MOTU 2408 and 3x Focusrite Octopre MkII Dynamic It's racked up in an 11U rack and is too awkward to use a lot for my own gigs, but when I've had it out and running, it blew away most other systems I've heard.

True. Apogee. Boggling.

With 24ch of inputs, I can't get the computer, interface and I/O w/powerstrip into < 8 RU, so I may need to break it up into smaller subunits. CPU rack + I/O Racks, each of which can be 6 RU and easy to carry. It has to be one-man moveable, one-man lift.

Anyway, lots of good ideas.

[serr]

Originally Posted by sstillwell

With True preamps and Apogee conversion? I should freakin' hope so!

You should get a little Benchmark or a Lavry or something and run it on the S/PDIF output of the 828 so you can have FOH outs that have analog stages that match the quality of your input conversion.

I want to put my old PSX-100SE in the rack for that but there isn't room right now! First world problems...

[digaleet]

I'm blown away by all this feedback. Thank you all so much for your input! It seems like I've got a bit of a learning curve ahead of me, but your comments are all very encouraging.

Unfortunately I have a very slim budget, so I'll be doing a lot of making due with what I have. The audio interfaces I plan to use are not really ideal for this setup. The FP10's don't have remote controllable pre's... So I'll need to keep my rack at FOH for the time being..... As much as I would love to ditch the snake....

I'm very much a novice when it comes to this stuff. You all seem far more knowledgeable on the subject than I could hope to be. Which is exactly what I was looking for; a nod of approval from someone who knows what their talking about.

Now that I know this is a route that is worth taking, I am very excited to start using Reaper in a new way! Looking foreword to ditching my clunky old console! Thanks again for all of your wonderful feedback!

[Andy Hamm]

Just wondering, where were you when you saw someone mixing with Reaper?

[serr]

Originally Posted by digaleet

The FP10's don't have remote controllable pre's... So I'll need to keep my rack at FOH for the time being..... As much as I would love to ditch the snake....

My True preamps don't have any remote control either. It's not an issue at all. Run a snake just for that?!? Hahahahahahaha...

I'll just run up to the stage if needed.

[Jeffsounds]

Originally Posted by serr

I simultaneously record all the inputs and any fx I run to multitrack.

I'm curious about the recording of the show. Do you just record one long show and edit it later? Or is it possible to separate recording songs on the fly?

This type of setup would also be good as a mobile recording service.

[sstillwell]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

I'm curious about the recording of the show. Do you just record one long show and edit it later? Or is it possible to separate recording songs on the fly?

This type of setup would also be good as a mobile recording service.

For me, I record one long show and edit it later. I will break it down by set - there's no sense in recording the breaks. Disk space is cheap, but stopping and saving gives me a known point that everything was committed to disk. Doing it every song risks not having everything ready by the beginning of the NEXT song and that's a no-no.

Scott

[Jeffsounds]

Hey, Andy! Looking at your TourTech Theme. Pretty cool! Questions:

What is VOG? I'm assuming it has something to do with vocals?

Tunes - I'm assuming music played during breaks or prior/post show?

What is SUBS?

What is TRAX?

What is VOX $?

Just trying to get an idea of what you have set up. I like your organization! Nice job on the theme!

[sstillwell]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

Hey, Andy! Looking at your TourTech Theme. Pretty cool! Questions:

What is VOG? I'm assuming it has something to do with vocals?

Tunes - I'm assuming music played during breaks or prior/post show?

What is SUBS?

What is TRAX?

What is VOX $?

Just trying to get an idea of what you have set up. I like your organization! Nice job on the theme!

VOG = Voice Of God - a (usually unseen) announcer. Used for public address.

Tunes = yes, break music.

SUBS = Probably subwoofer level for aux-fed subs. Fairly common live sound technique. Feed the subwoofers from a separate Aux send and ONLY send those channels there that need it. Cleans up the low end from stuff like vocal mic bleed, etc., even when you have HPF filters on those mics. Also allows closer song-to-song control of low end.

TRAX - Backing tracks, sequenced material that the band or artist will be playing along with. Could be an entire performance that a singer is singing along to - glorified karaoke, or could just be sequenced synth or percussion parts to add on to an existing performance.

VOX $ = The Money Channel - Lead vocal.

I'm guessing on most of those, but I'd use something similar on most scribble strips if I was on a board, as would most engineers. I might draw a star instead of "VOX $", or use BRK instead of Tunes, but it gets the point across either way.

Scott

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

Hey, Andy! Looking at your TourTech Theme. Pretty cool! Questions:

What is VOG? I'm assuming it has something to do with vocals?

Tunes - I'm assuming music played during breaks or prior/post show?

What is SUBS?

What is TRAX?

What is VOX $?

Just trying to get an idea of what you have set up. I like your organization! Nice job on the theme!

VOG - 'Voice of God' - My talkback channel
SUBS - an aux send that is lpf that goes to the subs.
TRAX - Playback from the stage - lots of bands use them now
VOX $ - VOX is a vocal, this is the money vocal, or lead vocal

[Andy Hamm]

Oopps, I see Scott has already answered that.

On an unrelated topic, Scott would you be interested in making a few VST's for live use?

I'm looking for a simple DDL that is tied to the tempo bus and also allows you to select a delay time by specifing ms, but I need it to be able to duck the delay on input - so for short delays you will get just tails and an uncluttered vocal. It also has to have the standard hp and lpf. I do this now using the ReaDelay and Reacomp using a sidechain, but I'd like to have a go to DDL that does everything I need. Since it's used for live vocals, there needs to be some sort of sensitivity control for the comp so bleed doesn't keep choking the ddl.

The second thing that I'm looking for is a Difference analyser. I currently use Voxengo's SPAN as my analyzer, but it would be nice to have one that has a second set of inputs that I could use to send a measurement mic into, hit a difference button and it would just show me what is different between the input and the measurement mic input.

[sstillwell]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

The second thing that I'm looking for is a Difference analyser. I currently use Voxengo's SPAN as my analyzer, but it would be nice to have one that has a second set of inputs that I could use to send a measurement mic into, hit a difference button and it would just show me what is different between the input and the measurement mic input.

This doesn't work as well as you would expect (because of comb filtering) unless you synchronize the two signals by delay time. What you're looking for is a poor man's version of Smaart.

Anyway, yes, I've thought about things like that (and others) in the past, and continue to mull them over. They're on my list.

Scott

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by sstillwell

This doesn't work as well as you would expect (because of comb filtering) unless you synchronize the two signals by delay time. What you're looking for is a poor man's version of Smaart.

Anyway, yes, I've thought about things like that (and others) in the past, and continue to mull them over. They're on my list.

Scott

Yes, a much simpler version of SMAART though (SMAART DI is still too heavy as well). Because it's an analyzer, is there no way no integrate a sync that would reasonably allign the two sources?