Old 10-27-2006, 05:56 PM   #1
Jason Brian Merrill
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Default Reaper wins!!!

the worst midi implementation ever!

hehe...

i was just making up some beats for a song i had been working on, figured id try out the old reaperoo, and man..

totally counterintuitive.

I realize justin knows this (and plans on fixing it) but i wanted to start this thread --
just because its really really frustrating working with midi in reaper.

for instance, lets say you make one beat. But you want another variation. There is no way to copy a new instance over, you have to copy all the notes, make a new midi file, paste it into there, make sure its lined up, and then trim out the pieces you dont want in the main view.

and then adding fills to parts... omg what a hassle.

I love working with reaper/audio, but midi...

holy crap.

I wouldnt wish this on my worst, sonar/cubarse using enemy.

you have to be able to work with midi just as quickly as audio. I think one of the problems is that midi is being treaded as if it WERE audio, and the same paradigm just doesnt work with midi. we need overdubs (dont give me the workaround crap), we need easy "copy to new clip" copying in the right click menu, we just need midi faster. No frills, no crazyness, just faster.

and the midi editor gives me a headache to look at. Any suggestions for colours?
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:16 PM   #2
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open copy does this
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:09 PM   #3
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"The worst midi implementation ever!"
Well not really but... i dont like the sentence of Reaper that midi is not that important.
My whole studioproductions depends on midi, i got the impression that only realtime live musicians are using Reaper, and midi is history.
I love Reaper for audio but i need Logic Audio for midi (the pianoroll/eventlist editor etc) for my work.
Time to think about midi, and not this external midifile save.
Do it internal like Logic/Cubase... one projectfile.
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
open copy does this
not really.

if you are working with a drum loop, it takes that drum loop and consolidates the whole thing and makes THAT a copy. So what, i have to make it one loop again, then open copy, then explode takes and then put it where i want it?

jeez.

man, its great with audio
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
man, its great with audio
Oh yes. Closing in on unbeatable even.

MIDI though. Oh man, it pains me having to simply switch to another host to get anything even remotely useful done.

Cubase and energyXT are definitely the models to learn from for excellent midi workflow.

Once midi flows in reaper, it'll be an unstoppable godzilla-like force. In a tiny, sleek, package. *yum*
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:37 AM   #6
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Another reminder that from his holiday hideaway Justin did raise his head and say he was having some second thoughts on midi (or words to that effect).
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Another reminder that from his holiday hideaway Justin did raise his head and say he was having some second thoughts on midi (or words to that effect).
right and that is totally recognized..
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:05 PM   #8
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Default 100% agree: I simply cannot use reaper for MIDI

I would simply say that, unforunately, I cannot use Reaper for MIDI, even for a basic beat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
the worst midi implementation ever!

hehe...

i was just making up some beats for a song i had been working on, figured id try out the old reaperoo, and man..

totally counterintuitive.

I realize justin knows this (and plans on fixing it) but i wanted to start this thread --
just because its really really frustrating working with midi in reaper.

for instance, lets say you make one beat. But you want another variation. There is no way to copy a new instance over, you have to copy all the notes, make a new midi file, paste it into there, make sure its lined up, and then trim out the pieces you dont want in the main view.

and then adding fills to parts... omg what a hassle.

I love working with reaper/audio, but midi...

holy crap.

I wouldnt wish this on my worst, sonar/cubarse using enemy.

you have to be able to work with midi just as quickly as audio. I think one of the problems is that midi is being treaded as if it WERE audio, and the same paradigm just doesnt work with midi. we need overdubs (dont give me the workaround crap), we need easy "copy to new clip" copying in the right click menu, we just need midi faster. No frills, no crazyness, just faster.

and the midi editor gives me a headache to look at. Any suggestions for colours?
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Another reminder that from his holiday hideaway Justin did raise his head and say he was having some second thoughts on midi (or words to that effect).
I really really hope so! I wish that there was something for those of us who are home musicians who'd like an easy way to create and edit MIDI drum patterns, such as SONAR's original "session drummer", for use on personal demos and release-level projects as well. I have a drummer that I'm creating music with, but at 3 AM in the morning I'm not going to call him up to come over and lay a few drum tracks in my basement studio, my wife would KILL me!!

IMHO, Reaper's audio editing is pretty dang solid at this point, but the only thing that keeps me from loading it on main primary DAW is this whole lack of MIDI support for creating drum patterns. I've been saying this for months now, as have a number of other people, and I'm *not* even much of a MIDI user (beyond the drumm pattern thing).

-mr moon
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Old 10-28-2006, 02:43 PM   #10
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I also use midi for drums and for most everything else except guitar and vocals, but I just rewire FL Studio, and that all works fine.

Unless I am mistaken, I think Justin started this whole project because he wanted some software to record his band. He's coming at this from a traditional audio recording mindset. That's fine with me too, because the problems I have with FL Studio mostly derive from the fact that Gol and company are coming from an electronic dance/trance mindset. Reaper and FL Studio fill in each other's gaps.

Would it be nice to do everything in Reaper? Sure. Justin implemented midi because people were howling for it, then when it was there, they started saying it was tacked on, old-fashioned, incomplete, etc. I think it went from no midi to basic functional midi in about two months. I think that's pretty amazing, although it is just basic functionality, and it wish it were better.

However, I think it will be worth the wait. Justin could keep doing bug fixes and feature kludges on this tacked on system, or he could design something that is really cool and innovative under the hood. I think the latter is better in the long term, and I think patience is in order. You were all using something else for midi before. Why not just keep using it?

John
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:23 AM   #11
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You know...

I've HATED using midi-editors in the past. Too clunky, too obfuscated with buttons, boxes, etc...

Which it appears is something either keyboard players like, or people who start out writing with midi prefer.

I've used midi more in Reaper recently than I've used midi ever. I don't like how the editor makes you save, and it seems "funny" how it does quantizing (imo)..

But being able to start from just a "regular" track on the tcp is cool, as well as how the track handles it with the *same editing conventions as the audio portion*.

Personally, I don't want the Reaper midi editor to have a drastically different way of editing midi; I prefer things "look" like I'm editing it as audio as closely as possible.

As well as stay simple, in some way. So I'd like to say Justin, if you go off on a new paradigm for the editor, make sure you keep a simplified "primitive" version available.

/ $.10
// yeah, I'm a "old school primarily audio/instrument based" writer
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:40 AM   #12
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im sure the thing doesnt have to change that much at all.

prolly no need for 2 different versions at all.\

things are really coming along
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:31 AM   #13
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The midi doesnt cut it for sure. Because of the midi in reaper I dont even dare to start on a project to see if its worth buying.
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:34 AM   #14
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well you should try again with the latest version

nice improvements.
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Old 10-31-2006, 04:46 AM   #15
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Its a while now since I tried the midi in Reaper.
I was shocked when it wanted to SAVE my file whereas all others I know edit virtually.
Problem was that although it opened the file it didn't save the included tempo maps so the original file was ruined with no warning.
Since then the few times I needwed midi I stuck with XT.

Cheers

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Old 10-31-2006, 09:32 AM   #16
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well maa, it doesnt want to do that anymore
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Old 10-31-2006, 07:24 PM   #17
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I stopped writing in Sonar, Project 5, and Live in favor of Reaper. What I miss:

-Real time quantize option
-seamless looping when recording (no bzzzzzst)
-Preferences option to record arm only active track and cancel other tracks as default.
-Working on a meta level like Live (song creation by arranging patterns/sections)

Still, I won't go back to those other hosts. Hopefully these missed features will come to Reaper over time. The other hosts are on my hard drive only till I can render or convert my old stuff. There is so much potential for Reaper it's not even funny.
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Old 10-31-2006, 11:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnzymeX
-seamless looping when recording
Now that the MIDI data is included as part of the Project file I think we'll see the long overdue changes in REAPER's MIDI workflow start to happen.

I hate to use Alsihad as a reference, but I think this video demonstrates a good implementation of MIDI loop recording:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=...461abf1634079a

(ignore the templates/M-Audio promo part)

I really hope to see something this straightforward implemented in REAPER.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 11-01-2006, 12:49 AM   #19
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+1 here

.. thats a great video intro to midi. Not only does video help tutor but is also a great sales tool - i think a video from Pipe will go along way to help explain the new midi features being implimented once they finished.

If i can suggest improvements to the tutorial, video & screenshots webpages... a bit of web design effort there could help organize & promote and get more folks into all the extras that have been added by dev team & users.
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Old 11-01-2006, 11:17 AM   #20
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I'm clearly not a sophisticated MIDI veteran like many of you, but I actually like the MIDI editor in REAPER -- IMHO, it is a heck of a lot easier to navigate than the piano roll in N-Track. Adding and deleting notes with doubleclicks is great.

Since I usually use NuSofting DK+ for drums, I don't have the drum problems you guys have described, but it's really nice to be able to set a basic 4 bar pattern and click-drag to repeat it through the song as a clicktrack when I need to.

I look forward to Justin's upcoming MIDI improvements, but for now, REAPER is the best thing to happen to my music projects since my wife bought me a Telecaster for my 40th birthday...

Rock on...
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaRomeo
REAPER is the best thing to happen to my music projects since my wife bought me a Telecaster for my 40th birthday...

Rock on...
PR
Now that is a thoughtful wife. Don't let that one get away.

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Old 11-03-2006, 06:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Another reminder that from his holiday hideaway Justin did raise his head and say he was having some second thoughts on midi (or words to that effect).
Yes, but maybe the dev team should have never released an update (v1,34) claiming to "vastly improve midi" while none of the 5 big reported bugs have been fixed.

holidays = not working, and i respect that a lot
So, why releasing something if you're on holiday, and mainly to release a version where i really can't see what has been improved (except a nearly hidden "save as" in the midi editor : thank you for that, but this is not a "big" thing deserving to be labelled "vastly improved"...). I'm really waiting for Justin coming back from holiday and at last taking midi into consideration, for real.
Since nearly one year now Midi has been reported as buggy by users, and did not got 5% of the care the audio side did benefit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
the worst midi implementation ever!
hehe...
the worst thing here is not that it is indeed true, it is that it is not funny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by winbe
I would simply say that, unforunately, I cannot use Reaper for MIDI, even for a basic beat...
seconded.


BTW, i'm glad to read comments from Dln, EnzymeX, Malcolm, as they keep being optimistic.
I must say i am myself tired about spending time reporting bugs, (the same old ones since months and months, and always hearing "don't worry, it is coming soon, keep cool". We're far away from the beta stage now, and as i estimate i have done more than what i had to do about "user feedback", and that i don't need to ask for anything else since what i already reported as not working had never been fixed, i will stick to what i requested to make midi work at last, and jsut wait for facts, no more promises or announcements.
When the "top 5 bugs" will have been fixed, Reaper will be still far far far from being "killer" on the midi side, it will have just make one step ahead, and will have become "operational" at last, not good, just average, like a 10 years old program.
Then, maybe that mdii improvements will become as quick as audio development, and then, I'll get confident again and Reaper will have good chances to be liked for both audio and midi by many users....
So, i will just try not to put my dark side on every word i write about midi in this forum, and wait untill real improvements and fixing is here.

Last edited by sinkmusic; 11-03-2006 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:24 PM   #23
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umm sink, in my book, midi has been greatly improved with this update, even tho it has a long way to go. Im sure justin isnt done on this front. I for one, am glad he released what he did. It reinvigorated my faith in REAPER ;0
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Old 11-04-2006, 02:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
umm sink, in my book, midi has been greatly improved with this update, even tho it has a long way to go. Im sure justin isnt done on this front. I for one, am glad he released what he did. It reinvigorated my faith in REAPER ;0
Yes, i have also read a good feedback on Kvr about the implementation of "save as" in the midi editor (and i'm also glad about that !).
But apart this, i don't see what got improved and what deserves to be claimed "vastly improved".
No irony here, maybe the improvements were huge on the code side but invisible on the user side (i don't know anything about that), or maybe also i missed something important (i admitt it s very possible), but based on the "top 5 bugs" reported by users, the two most annoying in my case hasn't been fixed and makes Reaper not suitable for midi for my needs.
Anyway, i understand it is a step forward bigger improvements to come, so let's wait and see.
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Old 11-04-2006, 04:22 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
Yes, but maybe the dev team should have never released an update (v1,34) claiming to "vastly improve midi" while none of the 5 big reported bugs have been fixed.
It actually says "Vastly improved midi WORKFLOW", which is actually pretty accurate, since you no longer have to deal with MIDI files/open copy/etc, no need to save things midi files independent of the project, and the midi editor undo histories are part of the project undo history, etc.

Having said that, fixes and better overdub support are coming soon, too-- we just wanted to provide the stuff that was done and working to everybody so they could take advantage of it.

-Justin
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Old 11-04-2006, 04:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
we just wanted to provide the stuff that was done and working to everybody so they could take advantage of it.
.... as is 'traditional' in Reaperland, and I personally think that's a good approach. And pretty good when a significant proportion of the the developers are supposed to be on holiday!
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Old 11-04-2006, 05:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
we just wanted to provide the stuff that was done and working to everybody so they could take advantage of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
.... as is 'traditional' in Reaperland, and I personally think that's a good approach. And pretty good when a significant proportion of the the developers are supposed to be on holiday!
Yes, i agree with that too, of course !


Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
It actually says "Vastly improved midi WORKFLOW", which is actually pretty accurate, since you no longer have to deal with MIDI files/open copy/etc, no need to save things midi files independent of the project, and the midi editor undo histories are part of the project undo history, etc.
I might have focused a bit on the "vastly", and didn't notice the "worflow"...
And i had seen (and appreciated) the save stuff -which is fine-, but didn't know about the midi history thing -which is good, too- ;

[OT] As Justin replied to the topic, i also wanted to clarify a little bit the situation from my side, regarding Jason's remark about my latest posts :
I keep thinking Reaper's handling of midi is really bad and not working, but my criticism about this never intended to be personal attacks or eagerness, and i hope no one from the dev team took it like that.
I think it is "fair" saying both that the required midi fixing never happened since months -and that compared to the audio development's speed it dispappoints me- AND that i respect the people involved and their work, and the fact that every immprovements is released very quickly (even if i would'nt have qualified it "vastly"). [/OT]
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Old 11-04-2006, 09:21 AM   #28
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you cant say "not working"

Reaper records MIDI

Reaper plays back MIDI

Reaper even lets you edit MIDI in FAR more ways than the hardware sequencers many hit records used back in the day

You want to see MIDI "not working"? Look at Vegas
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Old 11-04-2006, 09:43 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
you cant say "not working"

Reaper records MIDI

Reaper plays back MIDI

Reaper even lets you edit MIDI in FAR more ways than the hardware sequencers many hit records used back in the day

You want to see MIDI "not working"? Look at Vegas
I'm sorry, but i can't agree Pipe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
Reaper records MIDI
- Yes, it records, but you end up with missing first notes, and incorrect lenght's clip. So it doesn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
Reaper plays back MIDI
- It plays back midi, indeed, but it glitches at the end of loops with 70% of my vsti, there is note off at the end of loops, etc, etc; So i think we can say it doesn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
Reaper even lets you edit MIDI in FAR more ways than the hardware sequencers many hit records used back in the day
- And why comparing a daw with a hardware sequencer "used back in the day" ? Let's compare what can be compared : take any audio & midi DAW, and ask any midi user : Reaper is far worse than any audio and midi sequencer in the KVR database (for example). I think i could drop a list of at least 15 sequencer handling midi a lot better than Reaper does at the moment.
And if you still want to compare hardware and Reaper, even my atari or my xp-50 (bought 12 years ago) loops correctly, doesn't produce glitches, records every note and make clips of the wished lenght. With my old Xp-50, i can also duplicate, merge and make many operations with only 2 clicks. And in my old Qx-5, i could make macros.


Once again, this is not against Reaper, but let's be honnest and face things as they are.
You still can pretend that it works (it can seem to be like that if you don't use midi, or only use it to play a midi clip sometimes), but i think it should take only 2 minutes to find many users complaining about bugs and issues (not talking about FR)(and these bugs and issues have been vastly described and reported), so in these conditions, i don't dare saying that it does work, but just hope that it will work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
You want to see MIDI "not working"? Look at Vegas
You want to see midi "working" ? look at Fruity loops, Ableton Live, EnergyXT, Luna, Cubase, Muzys, even Tracktion, Acid, and many many others.
In all of these hosts, you say you want a 4 bar loops ? You end up with a 4 bar loops, and as long as you record, you have no missing notes, no note off, no glitches, and THIS is working...( Not even talking about refinements, just a bugless workflow) ;

Last edited by sinkmusic; 11-04-2006 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 11-04-2006, 10:01 AM   #30
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Thats just it we have for the past ten years, markets flooded with midi sequencers, sometimes with audo tacked on as an afterthought

Now, finally we have an audio app, trying to add MIDI

You are correct to point out the bugs you have though. I had thought they were taken care of. I agree with you those should have high priority about now
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Old 11-04-2006, 11:36 AM   #31
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there are alot of points here to agree and disagree with --

I find that alot of apps I started with actually tacked midi on after -- there are just as many of them as there are the logics/sonars/cubases -- so, i wouldnt really agree that is the case.

as far as the midi working, i think pipe, you are over-simplifying it a bit, but yes, it is working, but only after 1.34 -- in a proper way. Now come the refinements.
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