Old 01-23-2019, 03:57 AM   #1
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Default Draw volume fade on midi note?

Is it possible to draw a volume fade on a midi note in the midi editor?
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:42 AM   #2
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Try drawing a curve on either one of these:

CC7 = Volume
CC11 = Expression
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:55 AM   #3
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Thanks so much. Drawing CC7 worked. I turned off snap to grid so I could draw lots of them. Woot !

I also found this in my Reaper search to make straight line ramps of the events. I turn off grid to help write lots of smooth events. Works great !

Tod
03-02-2012, 10:13 PM
You first draw them in with either Left-Drag or Ctrl-Left-Drag. Then use Shift-Left-Drag to make a straight line of those events.

If that don't work check you mouse modifiers for the CC Lane. Shift-Left-Drag On mine is set to Linear ramp selected CC events if any, other wise linear ramp.

You might also check Preferences>Editing Behavior> Midi Editor what you have for Events per quarter note when drawing in CC lanes. I have mine setup for 128 and sometimes higher to avoid any zipping sound.

Last edited by Coachz; 01-23-2019 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:03 AM   #4
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Yes, there are some good MIDI editing tools available to make life easier!

If you're not aware of them, @juliansader has developed some great tools for generating/warping/tilting CC curves. They are available through ReaPack.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=176878
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:12 AM   #5
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Or split and fade in or out the midi item.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Or split and fade in or out the midi item.
Why do you have to split the item and how do you fade it in or out without drawing events like CC7?
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:51 AM   #7
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What i mean is to split a part of the midi item so you can fade where the specific note is if it's what you want.Midi items can fade in-out like audio items.Else automate the cc as you mentioned.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
What i mean is to split a part of the midi item so you can fade where the specific note is if it's what you want.Midi items can fade in-out like audio items.Else automate the cc as you mentioned.
I'm not sure why you would want to fade in and out, but even if that works, I think it probably uses Velocity.

I encourage all folks who use midi to get used to using the Midi Editor for all your controllers and midi editing, including velocity. In the arrange you are outside looking in, in the midi editor you're up close and personal.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm not sure why you would want to fade in and out, but even if that works, I think it probably uses Velocity.

I encourage all folks who use midi to get used to using the Midi Editor for all your controllers and midi editing, including velocity. In the arrange you are outside looking in, in the midi editor you're up close and personal.
Velocity is not volume though. CC7 is Volume

Putting a fade on a midi item does nothing here.

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Old 01-23-2019, 02:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Velocity is not volume though. CC7 is Volume

Putting a fade on a midi item does nothing here.


Indeed because with this way it fades the velocity and in order to listen something you must tweak the velocity from your synth.For the volume i would automate the volume envelope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AUkpwbkT64
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Indeed because with this way it fades the velocity and in order to listen something you must tweak the velocity from your synth.For the volume i would automate the volume envelope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AUkpwbkT64
Tweak the CC7, not the velocity, don't want the tone to change.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:59 PM   #12
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Yes can work both ways by automating the volume of your synth with cc inside editor or with an envelope outside the editor.I think the advantage of the second is that can make a curved shape faster without extra actions.(or open it inside AI for more possibilities)

Last edited by Vagelis; 01-23-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Tweak the CC7, not the velocity, don't want the tone to change.
Hi Coachz, actually velocity modulates the volume just like CC7 does, it just does it in a very different way, and also depends on how a VSTi uses it.

Also velocity doesn't affect the timbre (tone) unless it's tied to an EQ in some way, or if there are multiple layers.

Velocity is just another volume control, however, it can also have it's own controller called velocity intensity, which determines the amount that velocity affects the volume, usually from 0% to 100%.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:40 PM   #14
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Hi Tod it depends which velocity is modulated.Maybe he means the filter envelope velocity because when you modulate it with the velocity cc it open-close the filter.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
velocity modulates the volume just like CC7 does, it just does it in a very different way
Not exactly. You can't change the velocity of a sustaining note. You can change the volume of that note with CC7, though.

It's probably best left up to the user to decide which method suits each particular situation.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Coachz, actually velocity modulates the volume just like CC7 does, it just does it in a very different way, and also depends on how a VSTi uses it.
i wouldn't say it modulates it - it is part of the note on message and usually sets the initial volume of a sound - but this is totally dependent on the synth or the sound being played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Also velocity doesn't affect the timbre (tone) unless it's tied to an EQ in some way, or if there are multiple layers.
the same is true of the velocity / volume relationship - velocity doesn't affect volume unless it's set to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Velocity is just another volume control, however, it can also have it's own controller called velocity intensity, which determines the amount that velocity affects the volume, usually from 0% to 100%.
Again, it's only "another volume control" if you want it to be, and even then it only works at setting volume while a note is being played, so it's no use for fades on sustained notes etc.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Hi Tod it depends which velocity is modulated.Maybe he means the filter envelope velocity because when you modulate it with the velocity cc it open-close the filter.
i don't understand this post, but velocity is not a CC - it's part of the note on message

Last edited by domzy; 01-23-2019 at 04:07 PM. Reason: added some clarification
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Coachz, actually velocity modulates the volume just like CC7 does, it just does it in a very different way, and also depends on how a VSTi uses it.

Also velocity doesn't affect the timbre (tone) unless it's tied to an EQ in some way, or if there are multiple layers.

Velocity is just another volume control, however, it can also have it's own controller called velocity intensity, which determines the amount that velocity affects the volume, usually from 0% to 100%.
If I have snare hits at 127 and lower their velocity, their sound will totally change Tod.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
i don't understand this post, but velocity is not a CC - it's part of the note on message
Hi Domzy what is that you don't understand? I replied on the post from Coachz who said that the velocity maybe changes the tone.I said that if the filter envelope velocity in a synth is open then if you draw the velocity inside the midi editor it will modulate the filter.(so i thought maybe he meant this)
It depends which velocity is open in a synth,the volume velocity or the filter envelope velocity.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Hi Domzy what is that you don't understand? I replied on the post from Coachz who said that the velocity maybe changes the tone.I said that if the filter envelope velocity in a synth is open then if you draw the velocity inside the midi editor it will modulate the filter.(so i thought maybe he meant this)
It depends which velocity is open in a synth,the volume velocity or the filter envelope velocity.
no worries - i think i understand you now - i think you were saying that velocity can be linked to the filter cutoff, for example. But velocity is part of the note on message and is a static value when the note is triggered - i got confused with you referring to "volume velocity" or "filter envelope velocity" - there is only one velocity.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
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But velocity is part of the note on message and is a static value when the note is triggered
I agree with that,what i meant with filter envelope velocity is that some synths have velocity parameter attached to the filter envelope so if you open this and then draw velocity in midi editor it modulates the filter envelope.

Last edited by Vagelis; 01-23-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:45 PM   #22
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I found a video that shows what i mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD2C...rF6Tu&index=11
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
I agree with that,what i meant with filter envelope velocity is that some synths have velocity parameter attached to the filter envelope so if you open this and then draw velocity in midi editor it modulates the filter envelope just as amp envelope velocity does.
In the case of drums though, filters, Q, VCA, ADSR and all that stuff isn't the issue. It's that a different set of drum samples will be triggered at a different velocity.

Personally, when I want to tweak individual drum hits I just draw a volume envelope and am done. No worries that starting or stopping the song might leave some CC value tweaked to a wrong value that will make it sound different elsewhere. IOW, stopping the song mid CC change *could* leave that CC value in effect when you start the song back up at another position.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Hi Coachz, actually velocity modulates the volume just like CC7 does, it just does it in a very different way, and also depends on how a VSTi uses it.

Also velocity doesn't affect the timbre (tone) unless it's tied to an EQ in some way, or if there are multiple layers.

Velocity is just another volume control, however, it can also have it's own controller called velocity intensity, which determines the amount that velocity affects the volume, usually from 0% to 100%.
Clearly most of you did not read my post close enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Hi Tod it depends which velocity is modulated.Maybe he means the filter envelope velocity because when you modulate it with the velocity cc it open-close the filter.
Like I said in my post, unless it's tied to EQ, which in my mind would would include filters. I'm sorry, I probably should have included "filters or some other effect".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunker View Post
Not exactly. You can't change the velocity of a sustaining note. You can change the volume of that note with CC7, though.
Right lunker, but that's rather obvious, right? I guess I could have made some kind of reference to that, it just didn't cross my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
If I have snare hits at 127 and lower their velocity, their sound will totally change Tod.
Right Coachz and that's what I said here.

Also velocity doesn't affect the timbre (tone) unless it's tied to an EQ in some way, or if there are multiple layers.

What you're talking about are velocity layers that are recorded at different levels. In SMDrums we had up to 64 velocity layers.

Also a word about what velocity can and cannot do. Basically it can do anything the developer wants it to do. In Kontakt I can script velocity to be assigned to anything I want. However, I've never done that because all the instruments I create are sample based and assigning velocity to anything else wouldn't make any sense.

Well, I'll take that back, I have created a function in Kontakt where I can add attack to the samples. I use it in almost all the instruments I create in Kontakt and control it with CC16. However, on one of the snares in SMDrums, I attached the "Add Attack" to velocity. I still used velocity in the normal way, but the higher the velocity, the more "Add Attack" was applied to the snare.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:40 PM   #25
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use CC11, NOT CC7
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:13 AM   #26
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@Tod Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think of drums as layers but you are right.

@woogish So what's the difference between CC7 and CC11 ?

I see CC7 described as Channel Volume (formerly Main Volume)

and CC11 as Expression Controller
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:52 AM   #27
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Apologies if I am not understanding what is being discussed here.

I use MIDI hardware synths and although I know I can control the volume of a voice using CC7, I prefer to use volume automation on the audio track instead.

Advantage of this method is if there is any noise coming from the audio out of the synths then using volume automation on the audio track also reduces the noise whereas reducing the volume of a voice via CC7 does not.


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Old 01-24-2019, 09:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
@woogish So what's the difference between CC7 and CC11 ?

I see CC7 described as Channel Volume (formerly Main Volume)

and CC11 as Expression Controller
Expression is just a another glorified name for a volume controller.

CC7 is normally the main volume that controls the volume output, at least that's what it does in Kontakt, it might be a little
different with other VSTis.

The reason CC11 is called expression is because it works in conjunction with CC7. In Kontakt, CC11 is a modulator for each
Group volume control which is basically the input volume, although it does have 8 Group FX slots that can be selected to either
go before or after that volume control.

For drums, CC11 is rather useless unless it's been programmed in for some special reason. For myself, I always have separate
outputs for each of the drum kit parts, and that's where I control the output volume for the drums. Other then that, volume is
totally controlled by velocity.
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