Old 01-11-2019, 04:03 AM   #81
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Cheaper memory is nice too. I just upped my ddr3 memory from 6 to 12 GB for $35 for 3 2gb sticks.

Did the world stop development on cheap, reliable, long term, offline storage? Blank DVDs were the last cheap way to store offline, then bluray and then nothing. Those aren't even long term if I'm correct. I don't want a cloud, I want my own physical storage.
USB stick should last a good few decades if you don't keep deleting and writing to it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:13 AM   #82
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USB stick should last a good few decades if you don't keep deleting and writing to it.
Ok, I'll take a 10TB one please. Also I read you have to access them a few times a year or they degrade. no bueno. fail
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:26 AM   #83
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I fail to see the reasoning with the "you have to access it a few times a year" crowd... I buy SSDs to work with them. Not for backing shit up. They will work every day in the year.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:45 AM   #84
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Ok, I'll take a 10TB one please. Also I read you have to access them a few times a year or they degrade. no bueno. fail
You'll be able to get a 1TB one from Kingston later this year, and you can already get 512GB. That's 10 times the data you can fit on a dual layer Blu Ray now, or 20 times once the 1TB comes out.

The "you have to read them" thing sounds like an urban myth. Flash drive life is measured in write and erase cycles.

If you need 10TB of secure archive storage then you should be looking to a multi-drive external enclosure with redundancies.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:06 AM   #85
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I fail to see the reasoning with the "you have to access it a few times a year" crowd... I buy SSDs to work with them. Not for backing shit up. They will work every day in the year.
The reasoning is that it they could be used for backups also if they are stable and don't need maintenance like turning them on and accessing them periodically.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:09 AM   #86
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You'll be able to get a 1TB one from Kingston later this year, and you can already get 512GB. That's 10 times the data you can fit on a dual layer Blu Ray now, or 20 times once the 1TB comes out.

The "you have to read them" thing sounds like an urban myth. Flash drive life is measured in write and erase cycles.

If you need 10TB of secure archive storage then you should be looking to a multi-drive external enclosure with redundancies.
Yes, flash drives seem to be leading the way. It seems many of these other technologies like tape and optical have hit the wall though when it comes to price/size/reliability.

Are there any other technologies that can/will compete with flash drives/ssd ?

What do we really know about the reliability of them for archival storage ?
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:14 AM   #87
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What do we really know about the reliability of them for archival storage ?
Nope, they haven't been around long enough to really know for sure how long they will last.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:15 AM   #88
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Nope, they haven't been around long enough to really know for sure how long they will last.
Like LED bulbs. :-)
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:32 AM   #89
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If you need 10TB of secure archive storage then you should be looking to a multi-drive external enclosure with redundancies.
Not sure about 10TB (due to raid rebuild times) but these are a good start...

https://www.amazon.com/Synology-DS41...dp/B075ZNKCK4/

https://www.amazon.com/Synology-Bay-.../dp/B07KMKDW42

I have plans to get one for myself. I have a number of friends who use those.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:40 AM   #90
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It's real. Memory cells are like capacitors and loose their charge after a while. Some in months, others in years.

The same goes for old-fashioned eproms and roms. You can find 50 year old roms that are still good, but the next one has amnesia.

Even modern flatscreen TV's fail a lot because they forget their firmware...
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:47 AM   #91
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It's real. Memory cells are like capacitors and loose their charge after a while. Some in months, others in years.
At least 10 years according to big name flash drive manufacturers (Flashbay, Sandisk), and up to 80 years in perfect conditions.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:53 AM   #92
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At least 10 years according to big name flash drive manufacturers (Flashbay, Sandisk), and up to 80 years in perfect conditions.
Bummer.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:24 AM   #93
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But then, even though factory-pressed optical discs can last decades or centuries, consumer writable ones apparently have a much more limited lifespan.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:27 AM   #94
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consumer writable ones apparently have a much more limited lifespan.
I can attest to that, most of the CDs I burned in the early 2000s were unreadable a few years back, had to toss them all.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:30 AM   #95
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The more I read about digital storage media, the more I think Steve Albini is on to something when he says that magnetic tape is the superior storage medium for long term archiving...
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:42 AM   #96
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Entropy always wins.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:45 AM   #97
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Entropy always wins.
It gets us all in the end!
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:02 AM   #98
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I can attest to that, most of the CDs I burned in the early 2000s were unreadable a few years back, had to toss them all.
And yet this probably still works fine 35 years later

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Old 01-11-2019, 07:03 AM   #99
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The more I read about digital storage media, the more I think Steve Albini is on to something when he says that magnetic tape is the superior storage medium for long term archiving...
Forever !

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Old 01-11-2019, 07:43 AM   #100
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Until there's a flood or something, then tapes are all bust. SSDs would still work after the liquid evaporates
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:45 AM   #101
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A little sidenote - The longevity of NVRAM data such as SSDs is somewhat dependent on the exposure to ionizing radiation of various types.

When I worked in aerospace stuff, extensive measures were put in place to detect and correct 'soft errors' where a memory bit got flipped by being hit by an energetic particle. They would add hardware to run a CRC check every 'x' seconds, duplicate the memory 3x and do a majority vote on every bit read, all kinds of crazy stuff. Admittedly, the radiation exposure in space or on a commercial jet is magnitudes higher than on the ground...

It was really important for FPGAs, where the actual logic interconnects are controlled by RAM or ROM data. It would be undesirable to have the 'brains' of the chip get rewired at random, especially in a safety-critical application.

Those sort of extreme measures aren't economically practical in consumer or even industrial electronics, although memory technology at the chip level has improved reliabilty pretty dramatically in the last 10 years or so.

What's the takeaway? Well, if you have a basement studio where you see regular SSD failure, maybe consider getting a Radon test. Or sell off that stash of radium in the next room...
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:55 PM   #102
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My SSDs are backed up by Acronis Cloud Storage too.
But most of all Gal Gidot makes a 9 dollar SSD Storage mini briefcase you can get at WalMart that holds 1 x dozen SSDs.
I just finished up making spares for all 3 x PCs I’m currently using.



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Old 01-11-2019, 01:01 PM   #103
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The more I read about digital storage media, the more I think Steve Albini is on to something when he says that magnetic tape is the superior storage medium for long term archiving...
Everything is a compromise unfortunately, we have to use what is practical.
The problem IMO is that the ssd producers and retailers don't inform us consumers that ssd should not be used for long term storage without being used. This is where a traditional HDD magnetic storage is far more trusted and reliable. The nand flash memory sectors in ssd lose their electrical charge over time if not used, even faster if the temperature is high and the drive has been heavily used. The ssd software is designed to move around and recharge the flash cells, and ssd are designed to be used frequently. Samsung caused a scandal when they hadn't optimized the software for the 840 evo ssd model.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answer...nused-ssd.html
https://www.maketecheasier.com/can-ssds-lose-data/
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...-without-power
https://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/...data-retention
worst case scenario causing memory loss in shorter time is not likely:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2921...liability.html
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2925...after-all.html

Regarding burned cd/dvd lifespan, I've read that the DVD+-R(W) that burns to metal layer are the most reliable for storage.
DVD also have stronger ECC that handles error data better than cd.
The cheaper cd+-R (some dvd) burns to a color dye layer (green,blue) and degrades faster (they only have a metal reflection layer).
Weakest is the cd-R.

Last edited by batcat; 01-11-2019 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:49 PM   #104
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My SSDs are backed up by Acronis Cloud Storage too.
But most of all Gal Gidot makes a 9 dollar SSD Storage mini briefcase you can get at WalMart that holds 1 x dozen SSDs.
I just finished up making spares for all 3 x PCs I’m currently using.



You are stylin !
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:16 PM   #105
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Everything is a compromise unfortunately, we have to use what is practical.
The problem IMO is that the ssd producers and retailers don't inform us consumers that ssd should not be used for long term storage without being used. This is where a traditional HDD magnetic storage is far more trusted and reliable. The nand flash memory sectors in ssd lose their electrical charge over time if not used, even faster if the temperature is high and the drive has been heavily used. The ssd software is designed to move around and recharge the flash cells, and ssd are designed to be used frequently. Samsung caused a scandal when they hadn't optimized the software for the 840 evo ssd model.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answer...nused-ssd.html
https://www.maketecheasier.com/can-ssds-lose-data/
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...-without-power
https://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/...data-retention
worst case scenario causing memory loss in shorter time is not likely:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2921...liability.html
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2925...after-all.html

Regarding burned cd/dvd lifespan, I've read that the DVD+-R(W) that burns to metal layer are the most reliable for storage.
DVD also have stronger ECC that handles error data better than cd.
The cheaper cd+-R (some dvd) burns to a color dye layer (green,blue) and degrades faster (they only have a metal reflection layer).
Weakest is the cd-R.
Thanks for the clarifications
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:31 PM   #106
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FWIW There’s 2 types of Tape that are used to store the history of the internet.
Sony and Fuji IIRC.
They are fighting over sole manufacturing rights of this special Tape but doesn’t look like Uncle Sam will settle for that, although Government monopolies are quite common.
Medical Insurance, Union Education, etc.
No competition means sub standard products, so having 2 guys is enough to let them slug it out and Sam picks the winner.

I thought I was hearing things because I listen to PBS and Pod Casts when I travel.
This was on PBS and very interesting.
I figured we were more advanced than that, but this special Tape might regenerate its own splices for all we know.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:36 PM   #107
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Sad to think that unstable storage could mean the loss of many trillions of gigabytes of noodling; and that future generations, oblivious, will bear this loss.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:39 PM   #108
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USB stick should last a good few decades if you don't keep deleting and writing to it.
There are some USB Flash Drives made especially for high speed transfers and long shelf life.

Corsair GTXs.
They’re heavy as Gold Coins with a serious Metal Casing.
I use a 128 and 256 I picked up from CES and they were expensive.
You can get them for 50-60% less now as these are from 2013-ish.
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:33 AM   #109
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It’s true that official ZFS support has been removed from MacOS. The OpenZFS works on Mac. The only reason I’m not using it is that Google Drive was not willing to use my ZFS partition. It thought it was a network drive or something like that.

I used to have Dropbox but it corrupted some of my files. There were a few files that had different MD5 checksums than they had on another machine. That was when I Switched to Google Drive.
Unless I missed something, it was never offical. And you could never boot off of it without doing something weird (like how I'm planning on booting off iSCSI).

That's not, specifically, a Dropbox issue and could happen with any cloud provider. They're not exactly transparent in how they do things.

It's one more reason to just do everything yourself if you can.

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And why wouldn't APFS not be a "modern" file system?
No checksumming. No transparent compression.

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There's no liquid lubrication whatsoever in modern drives. Where it's needed, it's PFTE or another solid. The lifetime of PFTE is measured in centuries.

Any liquid lubrication would ruin the harddrive. It's not a tape recorder.
It's at least complained about, and I have had issues with drives that sat around for a long time.

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Yep, just go with Samsung. Their Pro range has a 10 year warranty - which means they're confident about longevity of their drives. EVO range has 5 years of warranty in most cases, IIRC. Which is still very good.
5/3. Just like almost everybody else.

Their TBW guarantees are higher than other consumer level drives. They also cost ~2x their competitors (depending on how you define competitor). For a single drive in a computer, yeah...Samsung Pro all the way. There are other reasons to consider the lower cost of, e.g., WD Blue SSDs if you need a lot of them.

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I fail to see the reasoning with the "you have to access it a few times a year" crowd... I buy SSDs to work with them. Not for backing shit up. They will work every day in the year.
Agreed. But, even my backup drives don't sit for more than a few weeks at a time. If I were doing long-term cold storage, I'd use tape.

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The more I read about digital storage media, the more I think Steve Albini is on to something when he says that magnetic tape is the superior storage medium for long term archiving...
It is. It has been since the beginning. And it's only getting better.

The problem is cost. Entry level LTO8 tape drives cost around $3300. If you already have a SAS HBA (which cost a couple hundred, if you have the pcie lanes to spare). An external that runs off thunderbolt or something is more like 5 grand. USB 3.0 seems to raise the price to 6 grand.

The media is, comparatively, free. Hence the break even point of about 100 TB. Or if you really need very long term storage. Believe me, I want one. I just can't justify the cost right now. And due to some changes in the tape itself that forced them to drop some of the backward compatibility they had kept since the beginning of the LTO standard, I'm not sure it makes sense to get an LTO7 drive, and anything older is definitely a waste.

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Entropy always wins.
And it seems like the mission of humanity to fight that fact.

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FWIW There’s 2 types of Tape that are used to store the history of the internet.
Sony and Fuji IIRC.
They are fighting over sole manufacturing rights of this special Tape but doesn’t look like Uncle Sam will settle for that, although Government monopolies are quite common.
Medical Insurance, Union Education, etc.
No competition means sub standard products, so having 2 guys is enough to let them slug it out and Sam picks the winner.

I thought I was hearing things because I listen to PBS and Pod Casts when I travel.
This was on PBS and very interesting.
I figured we were more advanced than that, but this special Tape might regenerate its own splices for all we know.
And unless I'm mistaken, IBM makes all of the drives, regardless of what brand labels it.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:06 AM   #110
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There's new optical media that stores 3.3TB and has 100yrs shelf life.

https://www.techhive.com/article/305...e-to-33tb.html

Optical is still alive!!

Even the latest archival 128GB bluerays have 50yrs on them. Then There's M-Disc
http://www.disc-group.com/technology...ay-technology/
which most new cheap DVD RW drives can burn now.

Forget about tape, maybe the cassette will last but the play mechanism doesnt. So glad that era is over for me.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:34 AM   #111
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There's new optical media that stores 3.3TB and has 100yrs shelf life.

https://www.techhive.com/article/305...e-to-33tb.html

Optical is still alive!!

Even the latest archival 128GB bluerays have 50yrs on them. Then There's M-Disc
http://www.disc-group.com/technology...ay-technology/
which most new cheap DVD RW drives can burn now.

Forget about tape, maybe the cassette will last but the play mechanism doesnt. So glad that era is over for me.
Not at $200 per 3.3tb it's not alive for me. 128GB is not enough for today's world. Optical has fallen way behind in value for me.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:38 AM   #112
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There's new optical media that stores 3.3TB and has 100yrs shelf life.

https://www.techhive.com/article/305...e-to-33tb.html

Optical is still alive!!

Even the latest archival 128GB bluerays have 50yrs on them. Then There's M-Disc
http://www.disc-group.com/technology...ay-technology/
which most new cheap DVD RW drives can burn now.

Forget about tape, maybe the cassette will last but the play mechanism doesnt. So glad that era is over for me.
I've seen at least one report that via simulated endurance testing, M-Discs fared no better than any other disc.

e.g., https://www.lne.fr/sites/default/fil...ing-report.pdf
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:15 AM   #113
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Yes it does seem the M-Disc days are numbered.

Protected optical disc (in future a crystal) does seem the logical way vs tape and current flash ram.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:31 AM   #114
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Maybe my perception is skewed but it seems to me that back in the 90s we had more innovation in storage. We had zip drives, jazz drives, cds, hard drives and the innovation seemed feverish. Now it seems to move glacially. Great we went from 4TB drives to 8TB drives over many years but there doesn't seem to be that innovation.

Remember we had the tech bubble burst at end of 1999 so was there just tons of money fueling it all and now not so much R&D or am I all wet ?
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:06 AM   #115
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ZIP and JAZ drives remain in history where they belong. If they were truly innovative we'd use them today still
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:13 AM   #116
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ZIP and JAZ drives remain in history where they belong. If they were truly innovative we'd use them today still
Innovation doesn't mean it stays at the front forever unless it's a MiniMoog.
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:19 AM   #117
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I don't think they were particularly innovative. ZIP is the same thing as a floppy drive but wow, it's thicker and the grooves are denser so it stores more than a 3.5" floppy, wow, amazeballs. JAZ is nothing more than a more portable hard drive. Serious innovation right there
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Old 01-12-2019, 08:25 AM   #118
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They innovated the click of death. :-)
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:24 AM   #119
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Maybe my perception is skewed but it seems to me that back in the 90s we had more innovation in storage. We had zip drives, jazz drives, cds, hard drives and the innovation seemed feverish. Now it seems to move glacially. Great we went from 4TB drives to 8TB drives over many years but there doesn't seem to be that innovation.

Remember we had the tech bubble burst at end of 1999 so was there just tons of money fueling it all and now not so much R&D or am I all wet ?
Well, we're up to 14TB now. And I think I saw something about a 20TB drive being teased at CES.

And they've gotten faster. SSDs were the big upgrade. Now, as NVMe and NVDIMMs are coming out, that's where it's going to be going for a while. Unfortunately, due to how they work, they don't make too much sense for consumer grade PCs due to lack of PCIe lanes.

There are also enterprise class SSDs in the 15TB range (though they cost as much as a nice car)....e.g., https://serverpartdeals.com/seagate-...-state-drives/

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I don't think they were particularly innovative. ZIP is the same thing as a floppy drive but wow, it's thicker and the grooves are denser so it stores more than a 3.5" floppy, wow, amazeballs. JAZ is nothing more than a more portable hard drive. Serious innovation right there
To be fair, the jazz drives also had a caddy. And they were innovative at the time.

That's the thing that people rejected.

The eventual adoption of USB 2 gave us an interface that was fast enough and provided enough power to run a 2.5" hard drive externally with one cable, and to eject/remove it unlike some firewire and SCSI implementations. That was the death knell for any caddy/disk system apart from Tape (because of capacity and endurance).
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:01 PM   #120
cyrano
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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Like LED bulbs. :-)
LED's have been around for over half a century...
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