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Old 11-02-2006, 12:56 AM   #1
zendar
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Default Pipe - question for you whilst Justins not looking...

Hi

I (like many I'm sure) remember your (and Rednroll, plus a few others!) hardcore stance on the Sony forums, and followed it off and on, with interest.

I wonder what your current thoughts are on the progression of Reaper. Has it filled the gaps that Sony seemed incapable of addressing, or has it not reached that point yet? Or has it become something of its own right entirely?

What does it say about the nature of modern commerce/marketing (amongst other things) that a one-man dev team can make the kind of moves and responses that a huge multinational seemed incapable/unwilling to do?

Any other long-term Acid/Vegas users feel free to contribute!

Cheers
Z
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Old 11-02-2006, 01:45 AM   #2
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I started nudging Justin's developmental direction of REAPER as soon as Acid 6 appeared to not be the answer us Vegas guys had been waiting all the years for. This was right around the time of the first public REAPER betas.

I pushed and bothered Justin hard for the features I was always missing and complaining about in Vegas, so really you could say that, within a month of reaper's beta release, it could do everything I personally wanted in Vegas, yet so much more.

Thnk the infamous Cherokee pics were at March sometime

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/index.php?which=45

So REAPER had been about three months old tops by that time! I didnt even have a copy of Vegas at that session

REAPER is everything I asked for from Vegas, and so much more

SO MUCH!

I gotta be careful here and say, the features I am so excited about were all features I wanted, personally, for my personal workflow. For my specific needs REAPER at about 1 month old had already filled all the gaps I was worried about, I just got greedy after that and started asking for things I dreamed of instead, and we have those too!

My main concerns in Vegas were:

1. Mono output routing: What a pain, needing to pan everything to get to the outs you wanted...pre Vegas 4 fx send followed pan, so bummer, you pan for a mono out, kiss your fx routing goodbye. REAPER tossed that problem in the wastebasket, and went further, allowing stereo pairs "in between" the stereo pairs you find in other apps

2. FX send panning: Pre Vegas 4 we had the pan follows channel arrangement, sometimes good, sometimes terrible. REAPER jumped in with pre/post fx send, dual mono send (like Vegas 5 + ), independant pan (WOO HOO!!!!!!) and follow channel pan

3. Sidechains...REAPER's track channel system and vst input chooser system brings back ALL my old hardware tricks and then some. Also note the y-cord ability of the ins and outs

4. Visible grids: In Vegas you could only see the grid with snapping enabled...UGH! REAPER says, have it both ways, grid on/off independant of snap on/off

5. Multiple tempos per project...MAN this was a biggie for me in Vegas...required all sorts of headstands and chicken slaughtering invocations to pull off a multiple tempo song in Vegas. REAPER allows all the tempo changes you want, including discrete changes and gradual changes with an envelope

6. Fighting "the edit limit". Once you had too many edits in vegas (putting a split at EVERY drumbeat was not uncommon for me, trying to edit these barbarian crackheads, or fashion conscious sissy-punks) the responsiveness of vegas could slow to a crawl, even crashing. REAPER's consolidate takes care of that, and adds some nice tricks as well. You could also call this the "glue" feature I would always fight about in the sonic foundry forums

I think those were the big ones for me, and they were taken care of very early on.
There could be more, but its been so long since I bothered with Vegas I dont remember

BUT remember, a lot of people used vegas in different ways than I did, so some of their needs may or may not have been met yet. Youll see some pretty powerful ripple edit functions in REAPER for instance, they werent so important to me, but others spelled it out and I think they got what they wanted.

There are MANY MANY MANY other cool things about REAPER than just the stuff I worry about

For one theres an actual programming language Justin worte into it to allow you to code your own fx in realtime as the music is playing!

Im not sure what this means for the future of software other than to say a previously UNHAPPY group of old tape/console guys are finally happy with a software app

Also, there is another coder, Christophe who has contributed much to REAPER

Also note that Scott Stillwell, Terry W, Art Evans, Olzzon and others have made plugins and utilities for REAPER that add so much to the functionality. The included REAPER plugs will get you up and running in SHORT order, while still having plenty of complexity under the hood if you want to go there.

Enjoy using the app that audio engineers made, instead of marketing engineers
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:27 AM   #3
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Quote:
REAPER tossed that problem in the wastebasket, and went further, allowing stereo pairs "in between" the stereo pairs you find in other apps
Trouble is I'm too ingrained with the old way to think of putting a spot on ch1 and a stereo pair on 2&3! The program is running ahead of my brain...

Quote:
Enjoy using the app that audio engineers made, instead of marketing engineers
Great summary, Pipe, and excellent punch line!
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:01 AM   #4
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Hi Zendar and Pipe !

I think there are only two features (correct me if i´m wrong
Vegas users) for ALL AUDIO VEGAS users to move into Reaper.
Video Play back and Surround Sound.

I remember Vegas Pro 1.0 having these little video window,
in a Educational Atmosphere it was a blessing, no more
Protools SMPTE syncing problems, very fast localization of syncing point, our only ONE facility for syncing to image
not was all time busy and more people (non really audio users) were making more audio work, it was fantastic.


If we have these two features a lot of animation, editors,
artists, will be working with Reaper and boooom, maybe more
video oriented people will be asking about Reaper in many PTools
ambiences, becouse right now they only know Ptools is the
professional tool, maybe becouse they don´t know another
excelent tool.

I know these is delicate stuff but I think MIDI can wait a little, video playblack will bring many more people into REAPER, and becouse Vegas doesn´t has MIDI .....and the topic is about VEGAS.

Mis cinco centavos.

Luck !

Last edited by amtg8; 11-02-2006 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:05 AM   #5
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- nice post Pipeline & may I commend you on your video tutorials... good narration with a pleasant, friendly approach

You pretty much summed it up there for most Vegas users.. having solid midi recording in Vegas would have saved me slaving cakewalk and made things so much easier back then.

Acid loop import & video (plus 5.1 for post guru's), would be the icing on top but i really do understand the need for midi to be worked as a priority since many users have voiced this here and in other forums... plus i think that solid full frame video playback will need some work - It took a while for Samplitude to get this working.
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:07 AM   #6
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pipe..and everyone...

the main question on my mind now that reaper does so much is a STRATEGIC question.
ie....where do you and other reaper users want reaper to be in terms of functionality
in the LONG TERM ??
i'm curious on your thinking on this matter.
here i'm assuming after basic video functions are added and midi is nailed, and linking multiple pc's.....(ie...the short term...)..what then ?? ie....the long term 5 years out.
these are the types of questions that product planning people
in large orgs like intel/amd/google/ibm etc try to deal with.

bottom line..where do you want reaper to be 5 years out ??
just curious.
ps..(i'm not looking for answers like nitty grittys like advanced midi filtering etc...i'm talking more on a higher strategic major breakthrough level assuming the computer industry is moving to lots more cores etc/faster internal pc busses/better drive technology etc etc...ie...i'm looking for deep strategic thinking. cos there are so many smart people here.)
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amtg8
I think MIDI can wait a little, video playblack will bring many more people into REAPER, and becouse Vegas doesn´t has MIDI .....and the topic is about VEGAS.
Many people have been begging SOFO/SONY for Vegas and Acid to merge for the last 3-4 years because as a NLE media editor, Vegas really broke the useability envelope, but as a music and sound creation tool, it's lack of MIDI and softsynths was a real obstacle.

I remember demoing Vegas synchronized to Acid on one machine, but it never was rock solid, and it's reliability fluctuated from version to version. Plus the dissociative effect and project management of running content in two apps in parallel is less than ideal.

MIDI caters to everyone from musicians, sound designers, all the way to lighting and stage operators. If Reaper had no MIDI I would not be an advocate, and if MIDI ceases to be a priority, then I will probably lose interest. IMO Reaper still has quite a way to go before it becomes a star performer in this area. I'm hoping that the ingenuity of the Brothers Grim along with their well-intentioned minions' many clever suggestions will make this part of the program something evolutionary, if not revolutionary.

I agree that simple synchronized video playback would be an asset for anyone doing sound to picture; I don't think it would be particularly hard to implement (someone already made a proof-of-concept VST plugin that does this in the recent KVR challenge).

So in brief: yes video playback will definitely be an asset, but MIDI is by no means unimportant for the Reaper to gather his flock of listless souls

u

Last edited by undertone; 11-02-2006 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:46 AM   #8
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The only thing I am waiting for in Reaper is loop stretching that rivals Acid.

Other than that - it's everything I could have ever asked for and more (It rewires to Acid really well anyway). a Part of me would also like to see a vst wrapper for the Js plugs so I can use them in Acid - But the fact that they are reaper specific is a draw all by itself.
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:10 PM   #9
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I hope that Justin mannage to let reaper grow, without loosing the connection to the user. So many apps has started great, but once it grew, money became an issue, when investors invest money in a company they demand money back. And that´s the main problem with other Programs, they tend to focus on things that is great for advertises. And not the small things like fixes bugs and so. And suddenly there bocomes a filter between the user and the developer.
If Justin find a great way of managing this, he has come further that any other DAW. And if anyone has the ability to do so i think it´s Justin, he´s just a tad more bright than many.
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undertone
So in brief: yes video playback will definitely be an asset, but MIDI is by no means unimportant for the Reaper to gather his flock of listless souls
+100. I would love to see video playback and timecode synchronisation eventually, but as a user base the MIDI market far exceeds the video post market.

To be accurate, solid MIDI support is a pre-requisite for a lot of composers and sound designers working with picture. You could add video playback tomorrow, but these people wouldn't rush to convert with the current MIDI system and VST compatability problems. Let's get this part right before adding video sync.



Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:10 PM   #11
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On the video issue, remember as silly as this may sound, for a lot of Vegas users its quite an emotional issue. The perception being that audio was thrown out in favor of video. Vegas had a LOT of promise and a jump on the market, but let it fall completely by V3 while video kept getting better.

I would LOVE to see a winamp style video playback, maybe even a separate rewired app or something. Im a little scared of taking development time away for video, but I think that newer reapers' ability to play visualizations might be a hint of that direction

Synth proposed a version named VIPER to be a reaper + Video app which I would LOVE to see at a significantly higher price. The price being high only to influence the perception of those who see how cheap reaper is and assume its junk.

Certainly Id like to see a video playback. We just finished our second BMX video, in Vegas. I was pulling my hair out trying to do the audio in it!
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1
pipe..and everyone...

the main question on my mind now that reaper does so much is a STRATEGIC question.
ie....where do you and other reaper users want reaper to be in terms of functionality
in the LONG TERM ??
i'm curious on your thinking on this matter.
Personally my needs were met sometime by the spring of last year. From there on out was just some silly fantasy stuff I'd like to see, and damn if we didnt get them!

Right now Im pondering some sort of artifical intelligence type of recognition logic to make drum editing more automatic.

Some slight UI enhancements to make sends a little faster to set up...

Just tiny things mostly
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:06 PM   #13
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pipe...
i'm in the same boat. except for a few minor things...
(eg click analysis/interpolation for example..)
most of my needs are met.
one of the things i liked with the old cool edit was i could actually get down to a sample with a little block around it and bring it down type of idea.

ive been thinking a lot about artificial intelligence/way out there stuff...lol. but how much is doable i dont know.
on a more mundane level...on another forum i'm on i see folks (advanced studio types)
talk about very hi end COSTLY plug in suites ( i cant afford lol...but most of which i think rpr does)..and the PERENNIAL
who makes the most exotic reverb, either itb or otb, and i wonder how exotic a modelling echo/reverb could be made within reaper. this could be extrapolated to a number of modelling areas.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:30 PM   #14
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reaverb is set up in modules, so the future is expandable with the base plug

It already does the convo bit and allows you to modify the convolutions

I have been pushing hard for a reverb that emulates the CONTROL SET of the old digitech reverbs...I know the name is much maligned, but if you think about who had their hands in the design of the particular tsr-24/2101 gigaverbs, my reasons should become clearer. The whole line of DSP from a few of these models caused such a political infight at Harman, that the line had to be dumbed down

Check out this manual,

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/3207/GSP2101manual.pdf

specifically pages 24-29

In it is spelled out, in the best form Ive ever seen, all the reverb parameters you could bother with, especially if you extrapolate modulation from some of the fuzzier looking parameters

Id love to see a user friendly reverb with this parameter set

Instead, companies give us the same silly ass modulated, comb filtered delay plugs copied from The Engineer's Guide to DSP, call it reverb, stick on a pretty GUI and tell us its the latest greatest thing
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh
Perhaps it is better for Reaper to support OSC and communicate with supercollider(and other languages) to leverage all that expertise rather than do it all in house.

greg
I think this is the right way of thinking. Having JS open for people to code to is an example that I think REAPER will be set to let experts of different fields do their expert work in a way they are familiar with and can add to reaper. ReaBurn and ReaperKeys are good examples too
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:14 PM   #16
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Interesting question about the future of DAWs, and it set me thinking.

It's all guesswork, and 5 years isn't a long span, but a few themes seem likely to me even if they take somewhat longer.

Collaboration:
I can see technology supporting collaboration better than it does now. This could be in the form of a true on-line jam (yes, latency will be an issue to solve) or it could be in more sharing of resources - a kind of P2P for DAWs maybe. Whatever form it takes, I can see people wanting to work more together using technology.

Integration:
Video technologies becoming more integrated with audio in a DAW. This is a video generation, and a visuals will be/are seen as part of the creative process. Mobility could be big too, and integration with mobile technologies (yes, I mean phones, ipods and so on).

Discombobulation:
Greater accessibility without needing to know all the details under the hood. There is a jargon in this world a little like early programming jargon. The people who know it and understand it will always be able to tweak things to a level of precision that the layman will not. However, you don't need to be a mechanic to drive a car. Maybe it's a dumbing down, maybe not. But advances will make it all more accessible.

AI:
Virtual instruments are one thing. A virtual musician is another. Being able to drop a drummer into your project as well as a drum set, and a bassist as well as a bass will be hugely popular. I guess I mean a more object-oriented paradigm. Certainly you won't get the level of control that you would get were you to play that bass yourself, but a virtual musician with a simple instruction mechanism and some AI would appeal to many people.

Audio:
For the virtual musician to work, I think audio presents a challenge. Tempo changes, note recognition, beat recognition, note bends etc are hard to describe. I have yet to find anything that will take guitar sound and convert it to midi accurately. However, people will want to use the instrument of their choice (even if that is their voice) to compose, and then be able to chop the resulting music up and play it back as another instrument. They will also want it to sound clean. Anything that can take hiss/hum out without removing/reshaping the music/sound would be a killer app.

Notation and copyright:
Maybe another area?

As far as Reaper is concerned, I have enough to keep me going for ages already.

I am just playing futurologist. I am not sure that these things are what the current user base would want (some may be horrified at some of the developments). However, I think it might be what the future user base would like.
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:56 PM   #17
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wow, fascinating stuff, great food for thought. right now what i find most interesting is how the gauntlet was pretty much thrown down by Sony (not in so many words, but along the lines of "this is OUR product, we'll do it OUR way, and YOU will be grateful - if YOU don't like it go off and write your own app - and then you'll SEE these things CAN'T be done")

being ignorant of the world of programming, I think I would have previously said: 'fair enough, here's my upgrade cash for another round of ever-diminishing vegas advancement'

i won't be doing that ever again, and i'm betting a lot of others will be thinking likewise. is Justin a freak talent, or is this happening elsewhere with the same impact? I know Gol was a whiz with FLStudio, but never came across as 'responsive' as Justin (maybe a cultural thing?)
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zendar
"this is OUR product, we'll do it OUR way, and YOU will be grateful - if YOU don't like it go off and write your own app - and then you'll SEE these things CAN'T be done")
The way they say it is usually "it is what it is"

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthre...ighlight=races
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:45 PM   #19
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There's a problem in all of this - Justin isn't necessarily the best person to be attempt the implementation of some of this stuff. For instance, he said himself some time back (as I recall it) that midi wasn't particularly his thing, and audio clearly is his thing, and that's perhaps why the program as we have it is more "audiocentric" than "midicentric". When it comes to video (for example), does Justin have the inside track on the detailed requirement, and does he have the coding background to do it well (because doing it less than well won't compete)?

Now if Cockos was a big outfit, they'd just hire in the talent to do whatever their marketing people might suggest as being a good business plan. But Cockos ain't like that. I'm just a bit worried that there may be a sense of unwarranted disappointment if Reaper doesn't take some of the directions that people might wish for, which given its style, it might not be able to do without turning into something unCockos-like.
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
There's a problem in all of this - Justin isn't necessarily the best person to be attempt the implementation of some of this stuff. For instance, he said himself some time back (as I recall it) that midi wasn't particularly his thing, and audio clearly is his thing, and that's perhaps why the program as we have it is more "audiocentric" than "midicentric".
There's a few other things that I read in Justin's Wired interview that worry me as well and suggest that Reaper's goal may not be to become the ultimate musician's compositional tool.

That's why I didn't go for the commercial licence; at this time, Reaper is too incomplete for me to use in my commercial projects. But it does show great promise and Cocko's support so far has been exemplary.

I hope the groundswell support for Reaper will inspire the Brothers Grim to new heights. I really respect the fact that these guys seem to be mostly motivated by their own enthusiasm. That's what art is about, and that's what life should be about,IMHO.

u
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:17 AM   #21
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Hold on now. In doing the audio stuff, Justin didnt hesitate to have a knowledgebase of some hardcore audio guys to draw from and ask questions of.

I see no reason he wouldnt do the same with video or MIDI. Hes not just rushing blind into any of this.
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:54 AM   #22
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Hmm.. where should I start?

REAPER in 5 years, I dunno, but considering its rapid development, I guess now one can really tell.

About its functionality, yes functionality is available , even though I don't use half of it. But the good thing about REAPER, nothing gets in your way or distracts your workflow in any way. The only thing reminding me of e.g. the MIDI funcionality is e.g. the MIDI send button.

I really think there are many more things to come, and I don't fear'em in any way, I just hope that the attitude of the people at cockos doesn't change.

I even don't know why I keep on downloading new versions, 'cause REAPER has already enough functionality for me (I just guess it makes addicted)

"Enjoy using the app that audio engineers made, instead of marketing engineers" +1
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