Old 02-03-2016, 04:53 AM   #41
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(Regarding really advanced piano performance for professional players I supposed we would need keyboards with velocity resolution higher than 128 steps. I think that i rather easily doable but the appropriate standard ( -> http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wik...elocity_prefix) is not very common yet.)

-Michael
I think 128 steps is probably ok, but current controllers don't take advantage of those steps. Some (most?) controllers output less than half of those steps while also lacking in accuracy and repeatability of translating performance to velocity. I think all of the current controllers use the same type of carbon contact switches for velocity sensing, and if you look into how it works you'll see why it doesn't work so well.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:04 AM   #42
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Thumb can be helpful in doing some chords otherwise not possible. Ever watched Hendrix play?
Oh, that is what he is talking about - holding notes with your thumb. I do that for some chords, probably because I'm not right... For example, for this chord:

-
5 first
5 first
5 first
-
5 thumb

Most people will play that with their middle finger on the bass and ring finger barring the higher notes. I use my thumb on the bass and first finger barring the higher notes, which leaves my ring finger and pinky free for playing embellishments. Also, I like the way that Hendrix did a root sixth string barre chord on The Wind Cries Mary, using the thumb on the bass, skipping the chord's fifth on the A string, and playing the rest of the chord as would normally be played using the ring, middle, and first fingers like this:

3 first
3 first
4 middle
5 ring
-
3 thumb

It just sounds different. I use my thumb for some alternate tuning stuff, too.

I can't say that I ever saw any metalheads using their thumb, though.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:06 AM   #43
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Am I the only one cringing at those guys playing with their THUMB on the frets? Surely there's a better way? Or is this how metal folks play?

Now I can't play like any of those guys (heck I don't even own an electric gtr), but I thought you're not supposed to have your thumb on the frets.


Wow!!!! Are you actually passing judgment on something you admittedly have NO experience in? Enough so as to alter your phyical state?
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:12 AM   #44
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Am I the only one cringing at those guys playing with their THUMB on the frets? Surely there's a better way? Or is this how metal folks play?

Now I can't play like any of those guys (heck I don't even own an electric gtr), but I thought you're not supposed to have your thumb on the frets.
Clearly you're not a Stevie Ray Vaughan fan.

I'm not sure the guy knew how to play if his thumb WASN'T on the fretboard.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:12 AM   #45
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I think 128 steps is probably ok, but current controllers don't take advantage of those steps. Some (most?) controllers output less than half of those steps while also lacking in accuracy and repeatability of translating performance to velocity. I think all of the current controllers use the same type of carbon contact switches for velocity sensing, and if you look into how it works you'll see why it doesn't work so well.
I firmly believe that the number of velocity steps is a total red herring and is no limitation on quality of feel, in of itself. Provided the quality of the mechanism can handle this many steps, in practice 127 steps is way more than is ever needed for full expression in any performance, and way more than any human being could reliably detect, even if they were to limit themselves to playing a single key.
Just because technology allows you to produce something with more does not mean it is useful for anything other than marketing.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:12 AM   #46
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Btw, I still think pianoteq sounds yuck. It sounds to me as if it is lacking upper and lower frequencies, like when playing an acoustic guitar that has a thick poly finish - it sounds muffled and kind of dead.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:15 AM   #47
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I firmly believe that the number of velocity steps is a total red herring and is no limitation on quality of feel, in of itself. Provided the quality of the mechanism can handle this many steps, in practice 127 steps is way more than is ever needed for full expression in any performance, and way more than any human being could reliably detect, even if they were to limit themselves to playing a single key.
Just because technology allows you to produce something with more does not mean it is useful for anything other than marketing.
I think the 'hd midi' thing could be useful for drums, assuming that some mechanism for sensing stick performance can take advantage of it. A snare drum, for example, is capable of producing a huge range of dynamics.

Btw, I have been attempting to program drums lately, because using pads and keys for drums just sucks. Who the hell can play hi-hats and snare dynamically on these things? I found out that doing dynamic snare rolls is kind of a bad joke, but I think it is down to the samples in the drum samplers that I am using.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:24 AM   #48
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I think the 'hd midi' thing could be useful for drums, assuming that some mechanism for sensing stick performance can take advantage of it. A snare drum, for example, is capable of producing a huge range of dynamics.
Provided it was used for things such as detecting where you hit the snare, rather than merely how hard you hit it.
Certainly I'm all for further development.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:32 AM   #49
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Provided it was used for things such as detecting where you hit the snare, rather than merely how hard you hit it.
Certainly I'm all for further development.
Hell, even playing in the same spot on a snare, I'm sure there must be many more [perceivable] dynamic levels than 128, going from soft buzz rolls to hard hitting.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:36 AM   #50
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Hell, even playing in the same spot on a snare, I'm sure there must be many more dynamic levels than 128, going from soft buzz rolls to hard hitting.
Of course, in reality it is effectively infinite. A drum skin is far more expressive and dynamic than a single piano key.
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:32 AM   #51
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I think all of the current controllers use the same type of carbon contact switches for velocity sensing
(not only) Kawai uses three sensors per key for velocity and key pressed sensing.

-> http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

(But AFAIK, there is only one Keyboard controller that can send more that 127 velocity steps: Vox 77.)

Pianoteq and the Kawai master keyboard can be st to a mode that the 127 steps are located on a commonly known curve (supposedly tweakable by the user) to make each step equally likely when playing and hence optimizing the usable velocity resolution.

-Michael

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Old 02-03-2016, 07:36 AM   #52
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Hell, even playing in the same spot on a snare, I'm sure there must be many more [perceivable] dynamic levels than 128, going from soft buzz rolls to hard hitting.
Current sample libraries only trigger velocity layers, the rest is merely loudness. I expect drum libraries would offer much less velocity layers than high end piano libraries.
Given the existing limitations if you stick to samples (not software modelling) imagine how big a library you would need in 24bit samples to cover say 128 velocity layer samples (maximum useable) for each percussive element for one whole kit.
Then imagine dividing the drum skin or cymbal into various areas to sample and adding to that 128 velocity layers per section for added realism. It quickly gets ridiculous, and that's with only 128 layers.

The only practical solution for extending that realism is software modelling, akin to Pianoteq.
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:36 AM   #53
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A drum skin is far more expressive and dynamic than a single piano key.
I suppose, a decently trained classic pianist will disagree

-Michael
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:08 AM   #54
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I suppose, a decently trained classic pianist will disagree

-Michael
I guess you are joking.
Even the likes of Alfred Brendel would no doubt concede that a piano key is a rigid mechanical structure, regardless of playing techniques involved.
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:44 AM   #55
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I guess you are joking.
Even the likes of Alfred Brendel would no doubt concede that a piano key is a rigid mechanical structure, regardless of playing techniques involved.
MY professional, and highly talented, piano technician would have unknown reaction to such a statement! ...... and I would agree after watching him work over the concert grand action for hours .... not keys, but hammer density, shape, position, force, etc., much more than a 'rigid'mechanical structure' ....
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:53 AM   #56
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MY professional, and highly talented, piano technician would have unknown reaction to such a statement! ...... and I would agree after watching him work over the concert grand action for hours .... not keys, but hammer density, shape, position, force, etc., much more than a 'rigid'mechanical structure' ....
I know, refined piano tuners could be horrified by such a statement. Imagine comparing the lofty piano to such a lowly percussive instrument as the drum!

Compared to a free human arm with a drum stick striking a large skin Piano keys have a relatively rigid, mechanical structure. Difference is with a piano you typically have 88 of them, all talking to each other in one big resonant body!
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:54 AM   #57
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Clearly you're not a Stevie Ray Vaughan fan.

I'm not sure the guy knew how to play if his thumb WASN'T on the fretboard.
I'm learning classical guitar and I thought using the thumb was a cardinal sin.

Didn't mean to piss off any metal/rock fans. Plenty of fantastic jazz musicians had "sloppy" fingering/playing technique on the piano but they did just fine.
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:57 AM   #58
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I'm learning classical guitar and I thought using the thumb was a cardinal sin.

Didn't mean to piss off any metal/rock fans. Plenty of fantastic jazz musicians had "sloppy" fingering/playing technique on the piano but they did just fine.
With Rock 'n' Roll I guess rules were made to be broken!
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:59 AM   #59
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Oh, that is what he is talking about - holding notes with your thumb. I do that for some chords, probably because I'm not right... For example, for this chord:

-
5 first
5 first
5 first
-
5 thumb

Most people will play that with their middle finger on the bass and ring finger barring the higher notes. I use my thumb on the bass and first finger barring the higher notes, which leaves my ring finger and pinky free for playing embellishments. Also, I like the way that Hendrix did a root sixth string barre chord on The Wind Cries Mary, using the thumb on the bass, skipping the chord's fifth on the A string, and playing the rest of the chord as would normally be played using the ring, middle, and first fingers like this:

3 first
3 first
4 middle
5 ring
-
3 thumb

It just sounds different. I use my thumb for some alternate tuning stuff, too.

I can't say that I ever saw any metalheads using their thumb, though.
Thanks for the explanation. So I guess the only need for the thumb would be for chords which you can't play with the regular fingering?
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:02 AM   #60
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Thanks for the explanation. So I guess the only need for the thumb would be for chords which you can't play with the regular fingering?
And muting the E and/or A strings. It's a free and useful appendage in several regards.
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:08 PM   #61
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I use the fret-hand thumb for fingering moving bass lines if I am playing my Strat or similarly smaller-necked guitars. Super-useful appendage!

But on a funny note...when I started studying music in college, I was originally a classical guitar major. But within the first 4 months it was very very clear to both me and my main classical guitar teacher that the traditional restrictions and I were going to butt heads too often, so I changed my major to jazz guitar studies. Best decision of my musical life! Jazz musicians learn the same theory, techniques, etc but also are encouraged to develop the ear and improvisational skills. Many great jazz musicians can transition easily and beautifully into a classical realm, but many classical players panic when asked to sit in with a band, read a basic chord chart, and improvise a solo.....

So that's my long way of saying "use the thumb!!"
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Old 02-03-2016, 01:50 PM   #62
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I have a kemper (power rack) and love it to bits
nothing in software comes close, i got nice/clean preamps (rme ufx/octamic xtc) s-gear/amplitube4 and great d/a (dangerous source/genelec) and the software amps are good, but they are just so obviously "software amps" the feel of playing them.
The kemper is a complete different league, quite costly though, for the profiler and the best profiles, ive not yet got into creating my own profiles, so much good stuff already out there.
Most of the average-to-crappy guitarists using Kemper (or anything else) still sound as average to crappy as they did using a freeware guitar amp sim and cab IRs. Want proof? Just listen to any random handful of YouTubes featuring a Kemper.

The point I'm making here is that buying a Kemper or that $7k piano they were going on and on about will be a complete waste of money for probably most musicians in a thread like this one. Ask yourself: Is your playing ability really worth a $2000 Kemper head (or any $2k amp head)? It's really as simple as that.

Flip the equation around. If your playing really IS that good, then you'll most certainly sound great on just about anything you plug into.

Just what the average lousy guitar player needs: something that has too many options, controls and buttons. Sure to distract you from getting much better in your own playing abilities. Kemper is symptomatic of the fallacy in this ridiculous decades-long Quest for Tone among guitarists. It's got much like our cars today: you need to be a schooled engineer just to fix one.

Drop a Kemper head just once really good and you'll see very quickly what the difference between it and software is. So, if you want to go with this sort of setup, buy at least a second head, better still -- buy three. You're going to need them down the road.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:19 PM   #63
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Most of the average-to-crappy guitarists using Kemper (or anything else) still sound as average to crappy as they did using a freeware guitar amp sim and cab IRs. Want proof? Just listen to any random handful of YouTubes featuring a Kemper.

The point I'm making here is that buying a Kemper or that $7k piano they were going on and on about will be a complete waste of money for probably most musicians in a thread like this one. Ask yourself: Is your playing ability really worth a $2000 Kemper head (or any $2k amp head)? It's really as simple as that.

Flip the equation around. If your playing really IS that good, then you'll most certainly sound great on just about anything you plug into.

Just what the average lousy guitar player needs: something that has too many options, controls and buttons. Sure to distract you from getting much better in your own playing abilities. Kemper is symptomatic of the fallacy in this ridiculous decades-long Quest for Tone among guitarists. It's got much like our cars today: you need to be a schooled engineer just to fix one.

Drop a Kemper head just once really good and you'll see very quickly what the difference between it and software is. So, if you want to go with this sort of setup, buy at least a second head, better still -- buy three. You're going to need them down the road.
It seems that as often as you and I disagree, we agree nearly the same amount. It's not the gear, it's the player, for sure. Good gear will make bad musicians sound even worse!!
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:31 PM   #64
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I was looking for free amp-sims from that page there somewhere and found this one as the 2nd http://www.heptode.com/vst_plugins.html
Deep crunch I like very much. Even if a few of them stacked together>
Heavy tone not so much.
Try it out and tell if im crazy or is it really one of those rare usable sims.

Btw. that one encouraged me to go on and try out about 30 free ones there. Couldn't find anything that was pleasing..100%.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:32 PM   #65
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Sanity Check...

If people were only able to buy gear that directly aligned with their abilities, there would not be much gear to buy because those dollars - chasing dreams dollars as I call them - are what pay for the R&D for all that gear.

So I don't really think it matters if some kid buys gear far beyond his/her talents because it is far worth it to them to enjoy using it regardless and far worth it for everyone else because as I said, it pretty much pays for the R&D that makes that same gear available in the first place. I mean should I not buy a nice basketball simply because I'm not ever going to be a basketball all-star? 95% of the music industry is selling hope and dreams anyway, without that, there is no industry.

Now should they be reviewing the gear? Probably not. Then again probably so, it's just that their audience would be those with similar abilities.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:42 PM   #66
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Sanity Check...

If people were only able to buy gear that directly aligned with their abilities, there would not be much gear to buy because those dollars - chasing dreams dollars as I call them - are what pay for the R&D for all that gear.

So I don't really think it matters if some kid buys gear far beyond his/her talents because it is far worth it to them to enjoy using it regardless and far worth it for everyone else because as I said, it pretty much pays for the R&D that makes that same gear available in the first place. I mean should I not buy a nice basketball simply because I'm not ever going to be a basketball all-star? 95% of the music industry is selling hope and dreams anyway, without that, there is no industry.

Now should they be reviewing the gear? Probably not. Then again probably so, it's just that their audience would be those with similar abilities.
Absolutely. As long as when you buy that great basketball you don't suddenly believe (or claim to believe) that you are now an expert. I guess my position on this is sort of from the other side, a great basketball player will still be great with a cheap basketball. But you are right, I am glad that people of all skill levels might buy good gear, it may keep costs down for all of us.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:43 PM   #67
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Sanity check allright
If I had to work each night and play rock or cheesy songs or something in the bars, I wouldn't care about any Kempers or AxeFXs. Not one bit. A fine strat copy and 2 second hand amps would do just fine. But I don't have to. Its only a hobby and so that Kemper thing is very interesting. Btw. I have no hopes and dreams left
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:47 PM   #68
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Absolutely. As long as when you buy that great basketball you don't suddenly believe (or claim to believe) that you are now an expert. .
Oh, I'm a legend in my own mind, that's for sure.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:48 PM   #69
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Oh, I'm a legend in my own mind, that's for sure.
Indeed. You're a legend in my mind too...but I am a crazy one, so take that however you want.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:55 PM   #70
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Btw, I still think pianoteq sounds yuck. It sounds to me as if it is lacking upper and lower frequencies, like when playing an acoustic guitar that has a thick poly finish - it sounds muffled and kind of dead.
Completely untrue, something's totally wrong with your hearing and/or thinking. I showed Pianoteq to several piano teachers back from my music school and they were floored by the sound quality of it - and those are people with decades of experience with pianos.

It's simply the best virtual piano there is, bar none.

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Old 02-03-2016, 04:14 PM   #71
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Good gear will make bad musicians sound even worse!!
In many cases good gear will give even bad musician a motivation / chance to improve themselves.

Those who manage to become good with bad gear are not just talented, they are geniuses. I don't doubt that there are some.

-Michael
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:33 PM   #72
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Code is code is code...Just putting it in a separate box doesnt change that

You don't need any more DSP than a modern (2004?) computer has to do a great model.

If you ask any of the "angel money" investors why they havent funded the creation decent DSP reverb plugins, or any other of the holy grails, (and I have asked and continue to beg), its always the same answer, no matter how unpopular that answer is around here, piracy. They will lose their ass on the investment.

So some of them do put them in separate boxes, in the chance of a recoup, but make no mistake, except for possible analog bits and pieces, these boxes are dongles.

There is NO physical reason a great DSP plugin cannot be made
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:39 PM   #73
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Most of the average-to-crappy guitarists using Kemper (or anything else) still sound as average to crappy as they did using a freeware guitar amp sim and cab IRs. Want proof? Just listen to any random handful of YouTubes featuring a Kemper.

The point I'm making here is that buying a Kemper or that $7k piano they were going on and on about will be a complete waste of money for probably most musicians in a thread like this one. Ask yourself: Is your playing ability really worth a $2000 Kemper head (or any $2k amp head)? It's really as simple as that.

Flip the equation around. If your playing really IS that good, then you'll most certainly sound great on just about anything you plug into.

Just what the average lousy guitar player needs: something that has too many options, controls and buttons. Sure to distract you from getting much better in your own playing abilities. Kemper is symptomatic of the fallacy in this ridiculous decades-long Quest for Tone among guitarists. It's got much like our cars today: you need to be a schooled engineer just to fix one.

Drop a Kemper head just once really good and you'll see very quickly what the difference between it and software is. So, if you want to go with this sort of setup, buy at least a second head, better still -- buy three. You're going to need them down the road.
Hey, my playing most certainly isnt worthy of a great amp, I play some rhythm, but live play Bass, and I usually use my Ampeg rig, not the kemper.
The Kemper is usually kept safe and sound at the studio where clients (who can play guitar much better than myself) certainly make that thing sing. We also record through classic vox/marshal/fender amps, but the kemper gets 95% of the way there in so much less time.

The same can be said for any equipment.. do we really need expensive pre-amps, expensive monitors, expensive d/a a/d converters, expensive classic guitars..... no certainly not, true talent can make music on anything,

give jimi hendrix or the beatles 1 mic and a cassette deck, the talent & the songs would shine through.
give an amazing pianist a crap piano, im sure you would enjoy listening to them... however give a crap pianist an amazing piano and youd probably want to leave the room.

I bought the kemper as it truly is the best virtual amp there is, I get some use out if, my clients get more use of it, and it acts as a great backup amp if my Ampeg bass rig fails (which it has on one occasion) truly versatile
Sure amazing guitarists can get tone out of anything.. vst amps etc, and no reason to buy something if you cant afford it, £1600 is a steal in my opinion, and have probably £700 or so worth of profiles.

Talent is wayyyyyyyyyy more important than the requirement for high end gear.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:05 PM   #74
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Completely untrue, something's totally wrong with your hearing and/or thinking. I showed Pianoteq to several piano teachers back from my music school and they were floored by the sound quality of it - and those are people with decades of experience with pianos.

It's simply the best virtual piano there is, bar none.
Not to my ears. It sounds boring and lifeless to me. To each their own.

Edit: It reminds me of when Ovation guitars became a thing. I thought they sounded horrible, yet some people went on and on about them.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:21 PM   #75
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Lookee here I just got my first axe. It's a glorious fender strat.



Now what is this Kemper thingy you speak of?
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:42 PM   #76
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Now what is this Kemper thingy you speak of?
An expensive hardware box that gets closer to the sound of amps.

Have fun with the guitar. And don't fear the thumb. You have it; might as well use it if it makes sense for what you're playing.
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:45 PM   #77
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That was a joke - I meant I'm getting the kemper to make myself sound better which I obviously won't. I just got the guitar on craigslist pretty cheap.

I actually didn't know if the guitar was supposed to have batteries so I opened what I thought was the battery compartment and lo-and-behold the neck came out

15 mins later I finally got a signal out of it and browsed through some GR5 presets. It is SWEET (GR I mean). The tones are wonderful but poorly matched to my (lack of)playing ability. Unfortunately the guitar neck seems to be bent because some notes don't play right (I know its the guitar's fault not me).

Nevertheless I'm so excited This is a whole new world for me.
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:46 PM   #78
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I actually didn't know if the guitar was supposed to have batteries so I opened what I thought was the battery compartment and lo-and-behold the neck came out
You were supposed to unscrew the bridge to get to the battery.
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:59 AM   #79
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You were supposed to unscrew the bridge to get to the battery.
Nice try. :P
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:14 AM   #80
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Nice try. :P
Rookie mistake. As every rock god knows, that's where the USB charger goes.
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