Old 01-30-2016, 07:03 PM   #1
brainwreck
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Default Kemper profiling amp software

Yea, you wish.

Seriously though, why hasn't something like this been implemented in software? Listening to demos, the Kemper thing sounds much better than any other amp simulation out there. After listening to alot of demos, I do notice a very samey, kind of flat sound to the various profiles (maybe it has to do with the reverb slathered onto every demo), but it still sounds way over and above anything else available (Edit: except Axe-Fx2).

Is the Kemper box using a ton of dsp horsepower? Anyone know how it actually works?
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:39 PM   #2
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http://www.guitar-muse.com/kemper-pr...-amp-2949-2949

This gives a little insight but its a pretty closely guarded secret. I think fractals axefx2 dsps are technically more powerful, but who cares when they sound great

I dont think they are clearly above and beyond everything though. The fractals sound awesome, and some of the helix and amplifire demos are pretty strong.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:49 PM   #3
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http://www.guitar-muse.com/kemper-pr...-amp-2949-2949

This gives a little insight but its a pretty closely guarded secret. I think fractals axefx2 dsps are technically more powerful, but who cares when they sound great

I dont think they are clearly above and beyond everything though. The fractals sound awesome, and some of the helix and amplifire demos are pretty strong.
I haven't heard demos of that other gear that sounds anything like classic amps without a bunch of fx doo doo. Got any links to anything like that? From what I have heard, if you want something that gets very close to dry amp sounds, Kemper has no competition.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:50 PM   #4
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The only thing close to an actual software implementation is using Bias Amp Professional. It allows you to do a tone match of a live or recorded signal. You have to pre-setup an amp similar first though, then it dials everything in. From what I've heard so far, it's been pretty close to the original tones it was matching.

I opted for the Bias F Professional though since it has pretty much all the same amps plus all kinds of effects.

Here's some examples: https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+will+it+match
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:10 PM   #5
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The only thing close to an actual software implementation is using Bias Amp Professional. It allows you to do a tone match of a live or recorded signal. You have to pre-setup an amp similar first though, then it dials everything in. From what I've heard so far, it's been pretty close to the original tones it was matching.

I opted for the Bias F Professional though since it has pretty much all the same amps plus all kinds of effects.

Here's some examples: https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+will+it+match
This sounds a lot like the tone match in the axefx. I think kempers doing something different in profiling. I doubt well see them do a software version. They have something pretty awesome going and it would get cracked and copied pretty quick if it was in software form. Just my opinion anyway
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:25 PM   #6
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They have something pretty awesome going and it would get cracked and copied pretty quick if it was in software form. Just my opinion anyway
If a plugin version was $200, where the hardware box is $2000, I think they would make more money by way of volume, even with some amount of piracy. Maybe the hardware platform also servers to discourage reverse engineering, though.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:28 PM   #7
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I haven't heard demos of that other gear that sounds anything like classic amps without a bunch of fx doo doo. Got any links to anything like that? From what I have heard, if you want something that gets very close to dry amp sounds, Kemper has no competition.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d7fywAjyCxk

This demos a few amps with no fx


If you think the kemper is better, its all good. Im not going to try and change your mind. I have a friend that has both units. I was lucky enough to be able to test out an axefx. To my ear they are both great units.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:50 PM   #8
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http://youtu.be/7sWIP4SA6YQ

Some fx some pretty dry on this demo
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:50 PM   #9
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d7fywAjyCxk

This demos a few amps with no fx


If you think the kemper is better, its all good. Im not going to try and change your mind. I have a friend that has both units. I was lucky enough to be able to test out an axefx. To my ear they are both great units.
No offense meant to you for providing the link, but bah... typical high gain, and clean with slathered on effects. It seems that 99% of people who demo gear are into metal, and half of those are into hair metal sounds with cheesy digital chorus, delay, and reverb slathered onto everything. Apologies for the rant.
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Old 01-30-2016, 09:05 PM   #10
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Yea, you wish.

Seriously though, why hasn't something like this been implemented in software?

Is the Kemper box using a ton of dsp horsepower? Anyone know how it actually works?
The profiling process is patented, so there's that, and I think they've said that a software version isn't in the cards specifically because of piracy.

In other news, I <3 my Kemper so, so much. Can't even remember the last time I plugged my 6505 in.
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Old 01-30-2016, 10:24 PM   #12
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http://youtu.be/7sWIP4SA6YQ

Some fx some pretty dry on this demo
Compare that to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ewmUlOuKB4

Which one sounds more like an amp to you?

The Fractal clip sounds really hard and kind of harsh and scratchy to me (I'm listening on headphones).

Edit: Still listening and comparing. The Fractal sounds very artifial to me, like I would expext from a software amp sim.
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Old 01-30-2016, 10:44 PM   #13
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The profiling process is patented, so there's that, and I think they've said that a software version isn't in the cards specifically because of piracy.

In other news, I <3 my Kemper so, so much. Can't even remember the last time I plugged my 6505 in.
Lucky man. So I take it that you're using it for metal? If I were playing metal, I think I could be ok with something from the software amp sim pool, but definitely not for clean to crunchy sounds.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:31 PM   #14
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Hey guys,

Let me share my favorite Kemper video with you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpWWcbNHrk.


Enjoy.


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Old 01-31-2016, 12:06 AM   #15
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Hey guys,

Let me share my favorite Kemper video with you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpWWcbNHrk.


Enjoy.



Some lovely playing there
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:27 AM   #16
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The Fractal sounds very artifial to me, like I would expext from a software amp sim.
You might want to do a bit more research my friend...
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:34 PM   #17
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If a plugin version was $200, where the hardware box is $2000, I think they would make more money by way of volume, even with some amount of piracy.
Perhaps. But if sales of a plugin version aren't what they'd hoped, and it hurts the sales of the hardware units (effectively competing with themselves), it could be worse than not taking advantage of having a plugin version. Plus: then they'd have to support multiple possible computer DAW configurations/OSes instead of just supporting their own hardware. I can understand their reluctance to make a plugin version.

As for the Axe-FX sounding "more fake" than the Kemper, I don't hear that. Unfortunately someone can pull up a clip of a Kemper they like with a certain profile/player/etc. and say "yeah but what about this" and since there are no similar Axe-FX clips (currently anyway), it's assumed the Axe-FX "can't sound as good" in that way. Like any amp clip, the sound depends on the entire signal chain (and the player). The signal chain in the Axe-FX consists of the various blocks including the speaker sim block, which is a make-or-break sort of thing. Without the speaker sim you prefer, you'd never know if the amp sim is going to make you happy. With the Kemper, the profiles (generally) include the speaker that was used at the time the profile was made. Someone "got that sound in the room", liked it, tested it before profiling it, and then profiled it (to the extent the profile mimics the sound). If someone chooses to use "Amp A" with "Cab B" in the Axe-FX because of his preferences, whereas you might've preferred "Cab A", you won't hear something quite like what you want.

Both units are very good at emulating the sound of a recorded amp. It's more about what you do with either of them, and if you're happy with the workflow of either device. The same can be said for some plugins, including some free plugins. With the right setup, you can use free plugins and get sound every bit as good as anything from a hardware amp sim. You may not want to work that way though, for various reasons.
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Old 01-31-2016, 02:17 PM   #18
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Lucky man. So I take it that you're using it for metal? If I were playing metal, I think I could be ok with something from the software amp sim pool, but definitely not for clean to crunchy sounds.
All metal, all the time. I've never been able to get satisfactory sounds out of software amps, although I think it's mostly the cabinet modelling that I don't like.

Once in a while if I'm bored I'll fiddle around with SRV sounds, but I'm pretty terrible at clean playing so it doesn't last long. Maybe if I ever put my Frankenstrat back together.

More sexy Kemper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TUI5gkHBu0
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Old 02-01-2016, 05:16 PM   #19
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You might want to do a bit more research my friend...
You're right, and I had forgotten about seeing what the Axe-Fx2 is capable of. Not that I want to sound like SRV or Hendrix, but it says alot that it is capable of doing those types of sounds. The problem is that both the Kemper and Fractal boxes are in the $2k range.
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Old 02-01-2016, 05:45 PM   #20
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You're right, and I had forgotten about seeing what the Axe-Fx2 is capable of. Not that I want to sound like SRV or Hendrix, but it says alot that it is capable of doing those types of sounds. The problem is that both the Kemper and Fractal boxes are in the $2k range.
YES!! (~$2k) ... and in context with 'software' question of this Thread, what gets closest TODAY?

Hopefully genres and other factors get put aside, as they would be the case with either Kemper or Fractal. If there is broad disagreement, then 'it is what it is', but surely things would narrow down to a select few?

Currently using Recabinet4/Thermioniks5, Guitar Rig5, bx_rockrack PRO, bx_megadual.
Probably goofed by not grabbing bx_bassdude
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:06 AM   #21
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i think software modeling is quite good in the current form. Its just that the experience as a player is so uneven because the software environment is so reliant on the unpredictable setup of every user.

I don't typically use many many tones.. and when recording, don't print many FX. I really thought I could find a software solution.

This was one of a few reasons I upgraded my DAW a couple yrs ago. When I got the same disappointing results on the new PC with 2 different interfaces and hrs and hrs of fiddling.. I gave up on VST guitar sims..

Of course I could get an RME interface, and recabinet, sgear, and maybe a couple more soft sims and should predictably be able to have what I wanted.. but thats no guarantee, and that's 75% the cost of an axefx..


For me, that's the rub. If I had a workflow of "reamping".. then these hardware modelers wouldn't have any allure.

In my humble explorations, and the requirements I have as a home recording artist, the hardware simulation is the best solution still.
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Old 02-02-2016, 06:38 AM   #22
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YES!! (~$2k) ... and in context with 'software' question of this Thread, what gets closest TODAY?
AFAIK, there is not any software that provides an audio chain analyze feature, as Kemper does.

(Regarding PC-software / dedicated-hardware compare: Pianoteq is great, but compared to VPiano ?!?!?!?)

-Michael
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Old 02-02-2016, 06:41 AM   #23
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(Regarding PC-software / dedicated-hardware compare: Pianoteq is great, but compared to VPiano ?!?!?!?)
Pianoteq has advanced its modeling, V-Piano did not. At this point in time, Pianoteq is better and more accurate (and more flexible) than V-Piano.


Just because V-Piano is hardware doesn't necessarily make it better.
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:11 PM   #24
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Pianoteq has advanced its modeling, V-Piano did not. At this point in time, Pianoteq is better and more accurate (and more flexible) than V-Piano.
Happily there are free trials of Pianoteq ad I of course did play with them. But I feel more comfortable with the samples I use (NI "Alicias Keys" and "Grandeur". I listened to a lot of VPiano demos and really liked them a lot.

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Just because V-Piano is hardware doesn't necessarily make it better.
Of course not. But the VPiano software runs on multiple DSPs. I suppose they have a lot more calculation power than any PC, and latency can be set very small, as there is no OS that once and again steals part of the performance.

-Michael

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Old 02-02-2016, 03:28 PM   #25
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I have a kemper (power rack) and love it to bits
nothing in software comes close, i got nice/clean preamps (rme ufx/octamic xtc) s-gear/amplitube4 and great d/a (dangerous source/genelec) and the software amps are good, but they are just so obviously "software amps" the feel of playing them.
The kemper is a complete different league, quite costly though, for the profiler and the best profiles, ive not yet got into creating my own profiles, so much good stuff already out there.
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:29 PM   #26
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I suppose they have a lot more calculation power than any PC
Wrong assumption. i7s have topped the processing power of even top of the line DSPs ages ago. As for latency, that's a non-issue as well with a good audio interface and a good ASIO driver (hint hint: RME).
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:56 PM   #27
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....(edit)H... But I feel more comfortable with the samples I use (NI "Alicias Keys" and "Grandeur"...(edit) -Michael
Raised my awareness Alicias Keys is one I perused only briefly and now looking seriously. With Komplete10 pianos, and Ivory II Italian, my next choice was likely XLN: Add.Keys _ Electric Grand, mainly for something set apart (Yamaha CP80).

Sure wish NI would offer some Demos !! I have bugged them several time on this.
Una Corda is another interesting one but no way without my own demo to experience.

Thanks for your brief note!
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Old 02-02-2016, 05:35 PM   #28
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I have a kemper (power rack) and love it to bits
nothing in software comes close, i got nice/clean preamps (rme ufx/octamic xtc) s-gear/amplitube4 and great d/a (dangerous source/genelec) and the software amps are good, but they are just so obviously "software amps" the feel of playing them.
The kemper is a complete different league, quite costly though, for the profiler and the best profiles, ive not yet got into creating my own profiles, so much good stuff already out there.
That's the thing that gets me. There isn't any reason why a hardware emulation should sound better than a software emulation, but it is currently the case. I wonder how many years it will be before the software amp developers catch up.
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Old 02-02-2016, 06:16 PM   #29
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That's the thing that gets me. There isn't any reason why a hardware emulation should sound better than a software emulation, but it is currently the case. I wonder how many years it will be before the software amp developers catch up.
I have been very curious (and bugged!!) about this for years...I feel the same way about reverb plugins vs digital hardware reverbs...They all just use algorithms, right?
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:17 PM   #30
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Wrong assumption. i7s have topped the processing power of even top of the line DSPs ages ago. As for latency, that's a non-issue as well with a good audio interface and a good ASIO driver (hint hint: RME).
I read s post from cliff at fractal that i7s are plenty powerful for dsp. Its just the short lifecycle as far as socket type etc.. Theyd be obsolete before a product reached production phase. I think reliability was also a factor
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:32 AM   #31
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I read s post from cliff at fractal that i7s are plenty powerful for dsp. Its just the short lifecycle as far as socket type etc.. Theyd be obsolete before a product reached production phase. I think reliability was also a factor
I don't really see the issue. Code targeted at current generation processors should work for next generation processors.
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:46 AM   #32
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Am I the only one cringing at those guys playing with their THUMB on the frets? Surely there's a better way? Or is this how metal folks play?

Now I can't play like any of those guys (heck I don't even own an electric gtr), but I thought you're not supposed to have your thumb on the frets.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:22 AM   #33
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i7s have topped the processing power of even top of the line DSPs ages ago.
Yep. But not regarding price/performance ratio. So embedded audio devices (such as VPiano) can use multiple - even lots of - DSPs.

-Michael
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:24 AM   #34
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How much does V-Piano cost again? Last time I checked it costs about $7000! Not really price-performance efficient either, IMHO. Especially since it does only one thing. Your PC + audio interface + MIDI controller (which more often than not costed way LESS than $7k) can do more than JUST piano.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:25 AM   #35
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Am I the only one cringing at those guys playing with their THUMB on the frets? Surely there's a better way? Or is this how metal folks play?

Now I can't play like any of those guys (heck I don't even own an electric gtr), but I thought you're not supposed to have your thumb on the frets.
Thumb can be helpful in doing some chords otherwise not possible. Ever watched Hendrix play?
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:31 AM   #36
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Alicias Keys is one I perused only briefly and now looking seriously.
Alicia's Keys is a great as a "pop piano" up-front, but not too dominating in any velocity, not very tweakable. Easy to use in average situations.

Grandeur provides a great realistic sound but is a lot more demanding (at least for a non-prof keyboarder like myself). Can be modified in many aspects and needs to be handled with care. Needs to be tweaked and played according to the style of the music.

To compare the sounds, you might want to the "Boa Sorte song" and the "Misty" soundclips at the website mentioned below.

-Michael

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Old 02-03-2016, 03:34 AM   #37
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How much does V-Piano cost again?
That is why I don't have one

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Old 02-03-2016, 04:03 AM   #38
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Hence your argument in comparing Pianoteq to V-Piano is not really compelling. Pianoteq does everything V-Piano does, some things much better, and at a fraction of the price - and is supported very well by its developers and has very relevant updates, and will continue to have them for time to come. Roland pushed out V-Piano and promptly forgot about it. So nice of them.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:29 AM   #39
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Roland pushed out V-Piano and promptly forgot about it.
You are absolutely right.

The more performance you can expect from PCs and the better the rather low priced software gets, the less sensible is doing / buying dedicated hardware.

Anyway the VPiano keyboard feels a lot more "detailed" than my old KX 88.

(Regarding really advanced piano performance for professional players I supposed we would need keyboards with velocity resolution higher than 128 steps. I think that i rather easily doable but the appropriate standard ( -> http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wik...elocity_prefix) is not very common yet.)

-Michael
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:43 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by keyman_sam View Post
Am I the only one cringing at those guys playing with their THUMB on the frets? Surely there's a better way? Or is this how metal folks play?

Now I can't play like any of those guys (heck I don't even own an electric gtr), but I thought you're not supposed to have your thumb on the frets.
Whatchu talkin bout Willis?
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