Old 11-23-2013, 01:53 PM   #41
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Kontakt is great and I love to use it a lot, but it adds memory overhead that's not there with RSM when you just need to mangle a few samples. Having additional window(s) for one single feature that could very well be implemented directly into RSM is bogging down the workflow, and we all know how important workflow is. Or do you not care for that personally, Justin?

With all due respect, it's great to have MIDI choke as a JS to use with various different plugins and creativity. But for pure RSM usage, it would really be great to have choke groups like SMM described above - way simpler to work with...
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Old 11-23-2013, 03:19 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
If you want Kontakt, use Kontakt.
I use ReaSamplomatic exclusively.
(I like to keep everything 100% REAPER when possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I think the separate choke processing is more flexible, easier to understand, and preferable.
Thank you for the reply and explanation.
(Since this is the method that you recommend for RS5k, I will use it).

I appreciate all of your hard work.

Thank you very much.... SMM

Last edited by SMM; 07-12-2015 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 06:26 PM   #43
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If you want Kontakt, use Kontakt.
True.



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Old 11-23-2013, 07:54 PM   #44
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Yeah, obey note-off should be on for something that will go through a midi_choke, but off for an unchoked drum part.
I think that is a flawed design.
It is impossible to do the most basic straightforward drum sample choking using a design like that.

I think a proper choke has to mute or fade-out audio. You can't do it by sending MIDI note-off.
When playing MIDI drums you typically hit a note and release it immediately, but the sample keeps playing after note-off. Sending another MIDI note-off, to choke the sample, will not cut out the audio. Forcing users to enable "obey note-offs" feels like a bad workaround.

Also, AFAIK it's not possible to configure a "bi-directional choke" using midi_choke. For example, note A choking note B, and note B choking note A. This kind of "bi-directional choke" is very simple to setup using choke groups in other samplers/DAWs.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:39 PM   #45
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I think that is a flawed design.
It is impossible to do the most basic straightforward drum sample choking using a design like that.

I think a proper choke has to mute or fade-out audio. You can't do it by sending MIDI note-off.
When playing MIDI drums you typically hit a note and release it immediately, but the sample keeps playing after note-off. Sending another MIDI note-off, to choke the sample, will not cut out the audio. Forcing users to enable "obey note-offs" feels like a bad workaround.
I disagree, since the midi_choke filters the note-offs and only sends them in the instance of a choke. It tells the sampler when it can be playing. You can use very standard MIDI drum parts and add the choke capability later and it will still work. Try it some.

Quote:
Also, AFAIK it's not possible to configure a "bi-directional choke" using midi_choke. For example, note A choking note B, and note B choking note A. This kind of "bi-directional choke" is very simple to setup using choke groups in other samplers/DAWs.
This might be a better argument, but it is also quite solvable via a JS effect (even if midi_choke doesn't currently provide a straightforward solution).
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:35 AM   #46
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Quote:
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This might be a better argument, but it is also quite solvable via a JS effect (even if midi_choke doesn't currently provide a straightforward solution).
If you can write such a plugin, please do it !!

With the sfz format i'm always using 'group=1 off_by=1'.
Something like that is pretty much standard in any sampler.
(Poise, Shortcircuit, FPC, ...)

Still can't believe it, after such a long time, that i can now set up a drum kit with RSO having choke groups ! Waiting for the next release of RSO to test all the new improvements.
RSO = snappy sound + low cpu usage + quick loading time (and now + choke groups )

Concerning the workflow:
To setup a drumkit you have to go through each instance of RSO anyhow.
So ticking an option more or less (setting the choke groups) wouldn't really bother me.
But i can live with it using a JS for that. It has the advantage to have only one window open to setup your choke groups. No need to go through all the instances of RSO again.
Even if RSO would have choke groups, this JS plugin would be still a very handy tool.
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Old 11-24-2013, 02:40 AM   #47
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I was super excited to see the RS5k love finally !

I just tried dragging and dropping as well as browsing/ selecting.
The list button is self explanatory and handy.

However there are no velocity range divisions as mentioned in the change / version log.

What exactly has changed ?

Does RS5k still play one wave file per instance ? How would it divide the velocity range amongst the files if it can only play one instance ?

How does it map the velo to files in mutiple instances ?

Any help will be appreciated .
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Old 11-24-2013, 02:51 AM   #48
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OMG !!

Its working ! Its not showing the ranges, but different midi velo sound different samples.

I ... Uh... Thank You !
<wipes a tear from eye>

Is there a limit to the number ?

Edit : and two instances are giving perfect round robin. I dont think I'll be using 3rd party samplers much now. Should have waited instead of wasting that cash.

Last edited by suleiman; 11-24-2013 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 04:05 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I disagree, since the midi_choke filters the note-offs and only sends them in the instance of a choke. It tells the sampler when it can be playing. You can use very standard MIDI drum parts and add the choke capability later and it will still work. Try it some.
Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize it works like that.

I tested midi_choke a bit and it seems to solve the basic use case pretty well. However, I still think implementing choke as MIDI plugin is somewhat limited (and it might be also confusing). For example, I can't use ADSR envelopes properly. Using long release time will ruin the choke. Proper choke implementation based on audio mute/fadeout would be able to stop samples playing also in release part of ADSR envelope.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 11-24-2013 at 04:35 AM. Reason: Removed the MIDI out recording comment. It is probably not a real problem.
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Old 11-24-2013, 05:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witti View Post
If you can write such a plugin, please do it !!
I will later today.
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Old 11-24-2013, 05:08 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize it works like that.

I tested midi_choke a bit and it seems to solve the basic use case pretty well. However, I still think implementing choke as MIDI plugin is somewhat limited (and it might be also confusing). For example, I can't use ADSR envelopes properly. Using long release time will ruin the choke. Proper choke implementation based on audio mute/fadeout would be able to stop samples playing also in release part of ADSR envelope.

jnif
Hmm yes I suppose separating the release for noteoff vs release for end of sample would be useful for things other than choke as well!
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Old 11-24-2013, 07:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post

Not sure what you mean here?

I'm just dragging in all the samples I've already got edited for Kontakt.

I'm just doing this with RSO for those folks that don't have Kontakt.

Are you aware Aeolian, of the latest ReaSamplOmatic in Reaper 4.58pre2?
Yep i totally misunderstood you
I think i had been playing with midi chokers for a few hours too long, jumped on the forum, read your post and SMMs posts, and totally misunderstood what you were saying


@suleiman
haha i knew you would be ecstatic about this.
I remember you were going to try and code something like this in JS about a year ago!
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:21 PM   #53
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Since there has been so much attention to Reasamplomatic now I figured I'd post this in hope that it might gain a little traction now.

I submitted a bug about Reasamplomatic a while ago and it was ignored. The information is in this report http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3995

I believe there is another thread someone else made about it floating around somewhere but I'm not sure where it is.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:08 PM   #54
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I tried the latest RS5k:

I see that it is now showing the number of "active voices" being
used per RS5k instance (This is an IMPORTANT and MAJOR feature).
..... A very BIG thank you !!!!!!!!!


Side note:
I also briefly tried Attack, Release, Decay, Note-off release override.

I must say that adding the graphic (yellow line) to the RS5k
sample window (complete with the letters) is an excellent idea.

I can grab this with the mouse and move it around to change the
values. I can see what is happening to the sample based on the display.
..... This is a great feature that is very easy to understand and use.

Last edited by SMM; 07-12-2015 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:53 PM   #55
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Some stuff I noticed...the list for ReaSamplomatic5000 is missing in the latest pre(4.58pre4), the new visual ADSR is good but gets weird when parameters are moved past eachother, decay for the visual ADSR is missing for shorter length samples but visible for longer ones, and also adding a option to reverse a sample would be very useful because the only possible way to do this now is to import to arrange reverse item, glue and then import into Reasamplomatic(can slow down workflow a bit)...other than that the new additions are appreciated, makes working with the sampler easier.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Shay View Post
Some stuff I noticed...the list for ReaSamplomatic5000 is missing in the latest pre(4.58pre4), the new visual ADSR is good but gets weird when parameters are moved past eachother, decay for the visual ADSR is missing for shorter length samples but visible for longer ones, and also adding a option to reverse a sample would be very useful because the only possible way to do this now is to import to arrange reverse item, glue and then import into Reasamplomatic(can slow down workflow a bit)...other than that the new additions are appreciated, makes working with the sampler easier.
Noticed the same with 4.38pre4 : list missing in RS5K and ADSR behaviour oddness.


However, thank you again for the RS5k love.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post

@suleiman
haha i knew you would be ecstatic about this.
I remember you were going to try and code something like this in JS about a year ago!
Haha got me. You have a good memory. Its a dream come true, it is.
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:04 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witti View Post
Concerning the workflow:
Ticking an option more or less (setting the choke groups) wouldn't really bother me.
But I can live with it using a JS for that. It has the advantage to have only one window open to setup your choke groups. No need to go through all the instances of RSO again.
Ahhhh, A very good point.... (I did not gave that a thought).
I'm glad that you brought this point up. It is a very good point !!!

For example:
Having to go through every instance of RS5k again to track down a problem with
a choke group (assuming a wrong setting was made by mistake in one instance) would really slow things down.

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Old 11-25-2013, 02:24 AM   #59
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Here's a good question: why are knobs in RSM so weird? They are all at 12 o'clock even if that makes no sense at all for them to be set like that.

Let me elaborate. Note start has its lowest value (0) at 12 o'clock instead of being leftmost. Note end has its highest value (127) ALSO at 12 o'clock instead of being rightmost. MIDI Chan has its lowest value (0) again at 12 o'clock instead of leftmost. Probability has its highest value (100) also at 12 o'clock instead of being rightmost.

Why is this? Makes absolutely no sense...


Knobs which behave as they should: Volume, Min vol, Pan, Pitch Bend (weird scaling though), Pitch offset, Max voices, Decay, Sustain. I don't like how 50% of knob travel for Attack, Release and Release override is spent on the very insignificant range from 0-1 milliseconds.

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Old 11-25-2013, 07:49 AM   #60
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Any chance for groups for voices(samples). Possebilities to route, Edit and modulate different voces at the same time With the same fx(compressor , eq etc) adsr, pan, vol, channel mod (lfo, sc) etc.
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Old 11-25-2013, 07:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Doc Shay View Post
the new visual ADSR is good but gets weird when parameters are moved past each other
Weird how? The intent is for the display to show the actual envelope, when parameters are moved past each other then their effects combine to create the envelope. For example here, the release and decay combine to form the right hand part of the envelope.

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Old 11-25-2013, 09:21 AM   #62
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Weird how? The intent is for the display to show the actual envelope, when parameters are moved past each other then their effects combine to create the envelope. For example here, the release and decay combine to form the right hand part of the envelope.

I think it may be something with the release parameter, I have never seen it go past the point of decay in envelopes in other software but it goes right past the point of decay and attack to the point its out of focus.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:24 AM   #63
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Adding a musical keyboard to the UI would be nice I think.

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Old 11-25-2013, 09:52 AM   #64
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Weird how? The intent is for the display to show the actual envelope, when parameters are moved past each other then their effects combine to create the envelope. For example here, the release and decay combine to form the right hand part of the envelope.

You can move release beyond the start point to the left, and decay beyond the end point to the right. Is that really necessary?
It is quite confusing, especially when the yellow control points become invisible because the points are moved outside source sample start/end.

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Old 11-25-2013, 10:25 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Shay View Post
I think it may be something with the release parameter, I have never seen it go past the point of decay in envelopes in other software but it goes right past the point of decay and attack to the point its out of focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
You can move release beyond the start point to the left, and decay beyond the end point to the right. Is that really necessary?
It is quite confusing, especially when the yellow control points become invisible because the points are moved outside source sample start/end.
Yes that is a little weird, the Release should indicate what happens at the note off point.

Just for demonstration purposes only, here's a GIF showing a Kontakt-4 ahdsr envelope.



It's not all that important because I think we all go by the numbers anyway but for aesthetic reasons you might fix it up a little.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:53 AM   #66
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It's not all that important because I think we all go by the numbers anyway
I feel that the envelope graph is VERY important.

Not everybody goes by the numbers.... There are people (who are NEW to this) that
do not understand what the numbers are actually doing....

... Having a visual representation of the envelope simplifies things and
helps the user to understand (and see) what the numbers are doing.
Plus, it helps to speed up the workflow for advanced users also because they
can grab and drag the yellow line using a mouse.

Having the yellow line/graph in RS5k is an excellent idea and very useful.

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Old 11-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #67
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What of knob behaviour? Anybody except me finding it weird?
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
What of knob behaviour? Anybody except me finding it weird?
Yes, I agree. Knob behavior is weird.
Also adjusting knobs using up/down keys is strange. For example Note start/end values change by +-2 (should be +-1), MIDI channel changes by +-0.25 (or something weird like that), and in Release there is two 0 value positions.

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Old 11-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #69
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What of knob behaviour? Anybody except me finding it weird?
A little, like you pointed out earlier, yes.

Also, this below seems logically backwards to me, for the UI, to have the editable field be numerical with note numbers not editable. You'd think it would be the other way around, to type in the note names and have the reference field be numerical. Or have all of those fields editable so the user could choose to type into any of them.

Best case, the note name field would be a menu, to just directly select a note.

Edit: Actually, retract that. Best case would be piano keys and simple left/right mouse button clicks to set the range.


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Old 11-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #70
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What of knob behaviour? Anybody except me finding it weird?
If RSO going to have big update, the whole GUI needs a serious overhaul. The big pile of knobs doesn't feels good anyway (imo).
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:24 PM   #71
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Quote:
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What of knob behaviour? Anybody except me finding it weird?
Yes it is a little weird.
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #72
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Adding a musical keyboard to the UI would be nice I think.
Heh heh, well lets just get it set up to place the samples on the keys then,

Seriously I think we do need a better way of working with tuned instruments. Setting them up in half step, whole step, or larger intervals is okay if the samples are recorded that way. However, many times they can have different intervals.

I don't think there's a way to do that yet is there?
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:56 PM   #73
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No clue. This is my first foray into RSM really. I'm still trying to make it just pitch a sample across multiple midi notes but i didn't want to clog up the thread with dumb rookie questions.

So far a sample that stretches an octave plays the same pitch on every note instead of pitching the samples. I know it's there, I just have to keep looking.
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:58 PM   #74
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I think it may be something with the release parameter, I have never seen it go past the point of decay in envelopes in other software but it goes right past the point of decay and attack to the point its out of focus.
Well REAPER is extra flexible Decay is a half-life, so the location of the "D" control is arbitrary. We can clamp the release to not precede the attack, and the attack not to precede the start of the sample, and so on, when using the envelope GUI, but for backwards compatibility and general REAPER style you should always be able to enter whatever numbers you want in the boxes.
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Old 11-25-2013, 06:34 PM   #75
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please let us press a note on a midi keyboard to enter note numbers! so simple...
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:03 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
No clue. This is my first foray into RSM really. I'm still trying to make it just pitch a sample across multiple midi notes but i didn't want to clog up the thread with dumb rookie questions.

So far a sample that stretches an octave plays the same pitch on every note instead of pitching the samples. I know it's there, I just have to keep looking.
Change the mode to "Note (Semitone shifted)".

It is quite difficult to setup note ranges because there is only Pitch@start setting and it does not show the note name.
In many use cases it would be much easier to have a "Root key" setting. For example if your sample is playing C3 and you would like to span it from C2 to C4. You would just set the "Root key" to C3 instead of setting Pitch@start to -12.

Quote:
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please let us press a note on a midi keyboard to enter note numbers! so simple...
You can already do it to set both Note start and Note end to same note. Just hit a MIDI note and then double click on Note knob. That is very useful feature and should be easier to find in the GUI (is it even documented?).

I think there should be also some way to set Note start or Note end separately using MIDI. Or is it already possible? I could not find a way to do it.

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Old 11-26-2013, 12:15 AM   #77
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Well REAPER is extra flexible Decay is a half-life, so the location of the "D" control is arbitrary. We can clamp the release to not precede the attack, and the attack not to precede the start of the sample, and so on, when using the envelope GUI, but for backwards compatibility and general REAPER style you should always be able to enter whatever numbers you want in the boxes.
Ok I understand and thank you.
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:38 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by jnif View Post

You can already do it to set both Note start and Note end to same note. Just hit a MIDI note and then double click on Note knob. That is very useful feature and should be easier to find in the GUI (is it even documented?).

jnif
I never knew. You know you will be now tracked and killed for spilling this esoteric secret , right ?

Seriously how did you know this ? Where is it documented ?
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:08 AM   #79
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Seriously how did you know this ? Where is it documented ?
It's always useful to watch devs working.
See Justin's example video (time 0:28) in this post
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...01&postcount=3
That's where I saw it.

And it's listed in REAPER v3.35 changes:
- ReaSamplomatic5000: doubleclicking MIDI note slider chooses last seen note on current channel

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Old 11-26-2013, 02:15 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jnif View Post
It's always useful to watch devs working.
See Justin's example video (time 0:28) in this post
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...01&postcount=3
That's where I saw it.

And it's listed in REAPER v3.35 changes:
- ReaSamplomatic5000: doubleclicking MIDI note slider chooses last seen note on current channel

jnif
Completely flew by me. Thanks again. Big timesaver , that.
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