Old 03-15-2019, 09:45 AM   #41
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Therein lies the difference. Track envelopes use host automation, which is a bidirectional protocol by definition. MIDI CCs aren't bidirectional, which is why there's no fighting. There's nothing to fix, if you have host automation it IS supposed to work like that.
Yep, very much this. Pbattersby, if you'd like to work in the manner you described, look into the "Latch preview" envelope mode when you would like to play an instrument and freely CC control a parameter you have already bound into an envelope like this. You could invoke this mode via a hotkey and then back again when done. It's still a bit different than working with pure CC data, but due to the inherent difference between these two, this is a good "best of both worlds" approach if you want to use parameter automation as a means of generating CC events on arrangement lanes like this.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:58 AM   #42
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There's nothing to fix, if you have host automation it IS supposed to work like that.
To me, it isn't a beneficial way for it to work for MIDI CC curves. I fail to see it as any advantage in having it work this way.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:04 AM   #43
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"Latch preview" envelope mode when you would like to play an instrument and freely CC control a parameter you have already bound into an envelope like this. You could invoke this mode via a hotkey and then back again when done.
Which is about where I gave up. Given the choice between toggling Latch preview mode on and off to use track envelopes and using the juliansader scripts within the MIDI editor, I chose the scripts and the MIDI editor but I'm looking forward to whatever Reaper develops as an improvement to the MIDI CC editing within the MIDI editor.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:13 AM   #44
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To me, it isn't a beneficial way for it to work for MIDI CC curves. I fail to see it as any advantage in having it work this way.
Understood. But this is how host automation works as a protocol defined by VST standard. In fact any plugin standard: AU and AAX are the same in this regard.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:24 AM   #45
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I'd just like to reiterate my main concerns at this point:

> How exactly are the single events going to be applied, and how will they look?

> Will our current custom actions and scripts continue to work as they do now?

Of course if we have both envelopes and event bars available to us, this shouldn't matter.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:25 AM   #46
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If the envelope is in square mode (which is the default), it's the same as a single event, really. It just shows you how it's going to be chased, as well.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:42 AM   #47
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Yea, that was pretty clever from Justin and schwa. That way, both methods can be used.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:45 PM   #48
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If the envelope is in square mode (which is the default), it's the same as a single event, really. It just shows you how it's going to be chased, as well.
Okay thanks ED, I just checked out the modifiers for the envelopes in the arrange area and I couldn't find anything that makes it easy, or seems relevant. They only way I can envision it is that it will have to create a square point and then somehow place another point above or below that point. Of course if you double click above or below the current envelope it can easily make that point, but if it's on or close, it might be strange.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:47 PM   #49
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Yea, that was pretty clever from Justin and schwa. That way, both methods can be used.
Hi Stevie, so did they say both methods will be used?

If they did I must have missed it.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:57 PM   #50
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Hi Stevie, so did they say both methods will be used?

If they did I must have missed it.
It's the square mode that you are looking for. As ED said, there really isn't any difference; you just see the graphical representation of how the value is chased, also, and in that mode that representation constitutes the visual envelope. Look closely at the screenshot earlier in the thread where you see the square mode envelope. You don't need to place two points at a value transition. When ever you have a singular event, it sets the value, and it changes instantly to another value where ever you have placed the next point. There's no separate data point necessary in the "corner" of the square shape at that transition, so to speak.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:22 PM   #51
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What Lunar said
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:27 PM   #52
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Made a gif so that you don't need to be worried about this, Tod



This mode is basically just a different visual for the old familiar thing. (Pardon the weird "move" cursor, it's not like that in Reaper but the capture software is acting funny.)

Naturally also:



The chasing visual stays consistent with the order of the points.

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Old 03-16-2019, 04:00 PM   #53
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Made a gif so that you don't need to be worried about this, Tod
Well thank you very much Lunar, I really appreciate that because now I understand.

I did look for a modifier today for the square mode but couldn't find it.

I actually do work with the envelopes a lot on my audio tracks but I've got all my main custom actions tied to shortcut keys. I also do all my envelope editing manually, it's much more precise.
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Old 03-17-2019, 12:05 AM   #54
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There's no modifier for square mode, there's a default curve option for MIDI CC envs in Prefs->Editing Behavior->MIDI Editor that is by default set to square. You don't have to do anything.

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Old 03-17-2019, 09:55 AM   #55
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Since we are discussing envelopes in the MIDI editor... How about displaying the tempo envelope in a CC lane?

This would allow editing tempo while looking at the actual notes being affected.

Tempo-related actions can be passed through to Main, so tempo *markers* can already be added and edited in the MIDI editor, but the tempo *envelope* cannot be drawn.

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Old 03-17-2019, 10:16 AM   #56
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There's bo modifier for square mode, there's a default curve option for MIDI CC envs in Prefs->Editing Behavior->MIDI Editor that is by default set to square. You don't have to do anything.
Thanks ED, are you talking about the recent beta intalls? I haven't installed any yet that has the envelopes in the CC lanes, but now I think I understand.

I've got plenty of portable installs to I need to take time to check these betas out. Too many projects to little time.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:21 AM   #57
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VST parameters envelopes in CC lanes I'd also find a nice thing...
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...22&postcount=9
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:28 AM   #58
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Since we are discussing envelopes in the MIDI editor... How about displaying the tempo envelope in a CC lane?

This would allow editing tempo while looking at the actual notes being affected.

Tempo-related actions can be passed through to Main, so tempo *markers* can be added and edited in the MIDI editor, but the tempo *envelope* cannot be drawn.
Hummm, trying to imagine this Julian. It could be nice for Orchestration and all midi projects, in fact it could be a real plus to adjust tempo while creating all midi projects.

Might work well with video projects too.
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:59 PM   #59
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I have to say thank you again to the Dev team for working on this. THis truly is one of the best updates you guys have ever come up with.


I'm staying on version +dev0308a which seems to be the most stable version of the envelopes.

The later versions had a bug when the user draws a midi node into in any CC lane, it would also write the same node value into all other visible lanes. I can take video of the problem if that helps narrow down a solution.

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Old 03-21-2019, 05:05 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
No, because that makes no sense, velocities are not transitional events, they are one-time thing ...
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So is every event in MIDI. I would even say that this is one reason trackers got "popular" and the event list editor (in classic MPCs) is beloved by many users - it reflects the nature of the protocol and doesn't haven much margin of misinterpretation.

But I am also used to envelope drawing, so even for velocity editing some drawing assistance in any way is always welcome.
You're right, but each velocity value is part of a note envent. In that way, it's not an event like the others.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:20 AM   #61
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we shouldn't get AI in CC world until we get the ability to disable overlapping AI controlling the same parameter. otherwise, say hello to frozen hardware
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:32 AM   #62
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I've just posted a new track on soundcloud.

I used the new CC feature and it is very usefull for CC editing and it's difficult to do without now.
Any news on a next release date ?
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Old 04-12-2019, 03:20 AM   #63
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Are coders working on this feature currently ?
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:46 AM   #64
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Well, at least it's not included in the latest devs.
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Old 04-12-2019, 09:26 AM   #65
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just to add to the fray... and even though ED has pointed to it a few times, .... what drives me nuts about the bars is when they hide the other bars of other notes that at the same position...
The Fruity Studio method of the lollipop with a bent handle is much nicer... IMHO
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Old 04-16-2019, 04:07 PM   #66
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Default I miss you CC envelopes.... When will you come back home?

I miss you CC envelopes.... When will you come back home?
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:57 AM   #67
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I miss you CC envelopes.... When will you come back home?
perhaps with easter eggs ?
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:41 AM   #68
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perhaps with easter eggs ?
Ha! Right?!
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:55 AM   #69
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Ha! Right?!
For sure !
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:37 AM   #70
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Last two dev releases (0430 + 0501) didn't contain value interpolation, so I'd like to post this as a general thought for discussion:

If vaule interpolation doesn't come back (i.e. we have square envelopes only) I'm not sure if there's much benefit in having CC envelopes instead of the old bars to be honest. (similar thought e.g. here).

I mean the difference in clarity is striking currently imo looking at this comparison on page one in this thread:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...89&postcount=2

Granted, it's improved in current dev releases, but I wonder if this level of clarity can be reached also with CC envelopes.

Having bezier curves etc. would way outway this for me, but again, if we get square envelopes only, I can't see much benefit in them over bars currently.

Thoughts?

edit:
I do like the velocity lolipos a lot though.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:39 AM   #71
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There's validity in having it displayed like this because you can more easily discern overlapping CC lanes (from multiple MIDI channels, say).




Even though this random quick example looks quite busy, with full-height bars you wouldn't see anything that's overlapping.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:42 AM   #72
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LIf vaule interpolation doesn't come back (i.e. we have square envelopes only) I'm not sure if there's much benefit in having CC envelopes instead of the old bars to be honest.
We are moving in that direction, but from the first round of prereleases that included interpolated envelopes, it was clear that there are many display issues and behaviors that need to be worked out. So changing the display and some of the behaviors to support square envelopes is the first step.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:54 AM   #73
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We are moving in that direction, but from the first round of prereleases that included interpolated envelopes, it was clear that there are many display issues and behaviors that need to be worked out. So changing the display and some of the behaviors to support square envelopes is the first step.
It hoped and thought so, thanks for clarifying!
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:13 AM   #74
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Thanks schwa, nice to hear, so my comment can be disregarded.
Also ED's point taken.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:38 PM   #75
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We are moving in that direction, but from the first round of prereleases that included interpolated envelopes, it was clear that there are many display issues and behaviors that need to be worked out. So changing the display and some of the behaviors to support square envelopes is the first step.
Thanks so much Schwa for all your hard work on the CC envelopes. Interpolated CC data is one of the best new features. Having smoother midi for our hardware and soft synth is going to really help the music sound much better.
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:02 AM   #76
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Some good ideas, thanks.


Hey Schwa, regarding this excellent idea that you´ll implement in the next dev cycle, I´ve got one more thing to add (and I think it´s an important one). Take a look at this :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j0...Y0AWk3-TlcujVa

Velocities are highlighted with the same bright colour as notes and it´s definitely clear to the eye - I´m using the default color map from Reaper 5 here -.


Now CC´s are not consistent with this :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R8...KPqG2Lzi2q6W4s

With the same selection range, CC´s show another selection color (the same as unselected notes, albeit slightly highlighted). I think that, for the sake of consistency and ease of visualization, CC selection should be highlighted in the same bright fashion as velocities. Maybe, the coloured space beneath the nodes - as shown in your proposal above - can have a darker tone, but the nodes would benefit from a brighter colour, I think.


And to summarize the issue, see what happens when you zoom out in the MIDI Editor and have various lanes at sight :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yv...dXV6vmEklrOLmn

Selected velocities are really easy to discern, even when you zoom out a lot. Selected CC nodes, on the contrary, are hardly noticed. While your proposal for the next dev is really gorgeous, consistency between the colour of velocities and CC nodes when selected should be of help, in my opinion, to this improvement.
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:21 AM   #77
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@Soli Deo Gloria you should probably know that CC's are indepedent events and they don't follow notes.
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:38 AM   #78
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@Soli Deo Gloria you should probably know that CC's are indepedent events and they don't follow notes.

Yes, of course. I´m not talking about MIDI functionality here at all, it´s about ease of visualization on a selection context, and most of all when you have the "CC selection follows note selection" option enabled. The topic is all about visual presentation of selected events (any of them) in the MIDI Editor. That´s what we were talking about with Schwa in the dev0501 thread.

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Old 05-03-2019, 06:43 AM   #79
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Yes, of course. I´m not talking about the MIDI spec here at all, it´s about ease of visualization on a selection context, and most of all when you have the "CC selection follows note selection" option enabled.
Ah, ok. In this case you're right!
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:54 AM   #80
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This has probably been mentioned before, sorry in advance ... I don't have the dev version with interpolated CC envelopes installed anymore, so I can't check if this already behaves/behaved nicely, but just a random thought:

On an arrangement lane, when splitting a MIDI item with interpolated CC data, split point being between actual CC events, there should probably be corresponding CC events inserted on both sides of the split location to conserve the actual shape and values being played out by the envelope. Otherwise the user needs to manually fix envelopes to keep the material sounding the same after the split.
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