Old 08-23-2016, 02:08 PM   #1
mikeroephonics
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Default MIDI Controllers in 2016 (Roland A-88?)

Hi, all.

I'm in the market for a new MIDI controller for controlling VSTis (Omnisphere, Kontakt, etc.) My M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 is on its last leg and it's time to get a replacement (uneven velocity response/worn piezos).

My requirements in a MIDI controller:

- 88 keys


Keyboard action:

- Hammer Weighted Action (with actual hammers)
- Not too stiff, not too floppy. I need to be able to perform fast, repeated 16th notes on a single key with ease.

- Pitch Wheel
- Modwheel (or slider and/or fader(s) which can be programmed to broadcast any MIDI Continuous Controller number.
- Sustain pedal input (polarity switching a plus)
- Expression footpedal input (polarity switching a plus)
- No more than $1,000 USD (unless it's a really fancy unit)

--------------------

I was looking online for 88-key hammer-action MIDI controllers and came across the Roland A-88 MIDI controller (street price: $999 USD.) It's strictly a controller with no on-board sounds, which is fine for what I need. But the problem is that an A-88 isn't available locally for demonstration and I'm not a fan of paying return shipment on it if the keyboard action isn't right for me. (More on the A-88 later in this post.)

So I dropped by GC yesterday to try out the floor models of all their keyboards and controllers. The only two units they had which include hammer action keys were a Yamaha Motif synth and a Roland Juno DS88 synth (street price: $999 USD.) I didn't care too much for the Motif's keyboard action but the Roland Juno DS88 got my attention.

I played the Juno DS88 a little while and found it to be pretty good (some nice sounds as well!) I bought it and took it home, then hooked it up to the DAW. After playing for a while, I began to notice that it was difficult/tiring to play fast, repeated notes on a single key. For fast 16th notes, it was impossible to play them. I literally couldn't do it and I have strong hands. Doing this on the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 was easy, thanks to its loose action. The Keystation Pro 88 had a bit of "flop" on the upstroke when the key return to its rest position. This helped aid with playing fast, repeated notes on a single key. I simply can't do this at the same speed with the Roland Juno DS88. I realize people give the Keystation Pro 88's action crap for its poor action, which I understand on a certain level, but at least you can play fast 16th notes on a single key without much trouble.

To me, the Roland Juno DS88 keyboard action feels a little too heavy and "gummy." I wish it were more loose and bouncy like the Keystation Pro 88. Also, the keys don't travel that far down on the Roland compared to the Keystation Pro 88 keys. I wish the Juno keys had the same degree of travel (or very close.)

So I called Roland's support and spoke with a technician, asking him how the keyboard action on their A-88 controller differs from that of their Juno DS88. I asked because both boards feature Roland's "Ivory Feel-G" however, the A-88 features "Ivory Feel-G keyboard with Escapement" which means it will respond differently in some way compared to the Juno DS88. He wasn't able to describe a specific difference in how the two keyboards would respond in practice but noted that there would be a difference.

Here's a key point:
As you may have noticed from earlier in my post, both the Juno DS88 and A-88 boards are $999 USD, however, the Juno DS88 is a full-fledged synth with great sounds, ASIO support, 8xAA battery power option(!) etc. but the A-88 is strictly a controller (but with the addition of Escapement.)

Is the price of the A-88 due to the Escapement feature of the keys, or am I missing something? If so, is the A-88 action that different (better?) from the Juno DS88 to justify the same price for drastically less features? Even then, does the A-88 have a keyboard action comparable to the Keystation Pro (looser, deeper key travel and less gummy than the Juno DS88?)

Sorry if this post went on for too long. I checked Google and didn't see any discussion about the action of these units in detail, nor comparisons in feel of Roland boards having Ivory Feel-G with and without Escapement.

Thanks for reading and for any feedback!
- Mike
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:33 AM   #2
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Not a keyboard player, but a keys player I played with about three years ago had a 88 note casio piano. Felt great, and was small and cheap.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:18 AM   #3
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Quote:
After playing for a while, I began to notice that it was difficult/tiring to play fast, repeated notes on a single key. For fast 16th notes, it was impossible to play them.
...
To me, the Roland Juno DS88 keyboard action feels a little too heavy and "gummy."
Did the Roland Support guy have any comment on this?
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:00 AM   #4
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https://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab88
https://www.fatar.com/pages/TP_40WOOD.htm,

Hi

A friend of mine had a fatar that felt good. Not sure if they're still good. I know he still uses his.
Gl
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Did the Roland Support guy have any comment on this?
Not really. I'm not an amazing keyboard player but I can tell when the keyboard action is not correct. The Juno DS88 simply can't keep up with the M-Audio keystation Pro 88.

Fortunately, I think I've found the right controller: The Casio PX-5S. Yes, a Casio! I need to demo it if possible. All the reviews say its action is very nice. I've read a few users who say it can keep up with fast, repeated notes on a single key using one finger. This is important to me.

Check out the reviews online for the Casio PX-5S. This seems like the best MIDI controller
for under $1,000. It's a stage piano/synth but I need it for VSTis primarily.
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:05 PM   #6
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If I could spend that kind of money on a keyboard I would build my own!!!

http://vaxmidi.com/keyboards.html#!/...egory=16007077
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Old 08-28-2016, 02:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
If I could spend that kind of money on a keyboard I would build my own!!!

http://vaxmidi.com/keyboards.html#!/...egory=16007077
Wow! Thanks for the link, Softsynth! I've read their site and watched their promo video for the new VAXMIDI controller. I haven't been able to read any reviews regarding the action of the keys but this looks very promising.

Here are my options at this point:
1.) Keep my M-Audio Keystation Pro and find new parts for it.
2.) Get a Casio PX-5S and hope its action is as nice as people say it is.
3.) Get a Roland A-88 controller and hope its action is as nice as people say it is (and NOT like the action found on the Roland Juno DS88.)
4.) Get the new PAXMIDI controller and forget the rest (I hope!)

Nobody's made a proper MIDI controller keyboard yet, based on my research. Is the PAXMIDI the holy grail of MIDI controllers? We'll have to wait and find out...
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Old 08-28-2016, 02:33 PM   #8
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Some more info on VAXMIDI: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...er/description


Lachnit: http://www.flkeys.at
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Old 08-28-2016, 03:39 PM   #9
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The Vax is a proper polyphonic aftertouch keyboard, the other modern keyboards only after channel/mono aftertouch. Couple that with state of the art sensor technology and serious build quality. I think all that is worth the extra effort.

You can get 5% off Lachnit if you are a registered Pianoteq user. Still seriously over your budget.

Another more humble offering (compared to Vax) maybe worth considering:
http://www.studiologic-music.com/products/sl-grand/
It also has a baby brother, still with 3 sensor hammer action keys:
http://www.studiologic-music.com/products/sl-studio/

I imagine that Casio is rather nice too. I have a low end Casio digital piano and the graded hammer action is far nicer than most MIDI keyboards. That PX-5S should be a comfortable step up and excellent in that regard.
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Old 08-31-2016, 04:35 AM   #10
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Hi,

Those Studio logic boards use fatar keybeds...if they are like their old ones they should feel good.
But I gotta say, that Casio that guy had felt great. Can't you demo em at guitar center or so?
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,

Those Studio logic boards use fatar keybeds...if they are like their old ones they should feel good.
But I gotta say, that Casio that guy had felt great. Can't you demo em at guitar center or so?
From what I can see Fatar is ubiquitous, most manufacturers use them, perhaps nearly all of them will have used them at one time or another, if you look at those with a wide range of size and prices.
I suspect even some of those that make their own key mech's actually use sensor parts from a Fatar Keybed.

Studiologic and Fatar are the same company. Hence you should be able to expect decent VFM from them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatar

Related thread:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthr.../Fatar_Keybeds
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:35 AM   #12
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Hi,
Thanks softsynth..I suspected as much, though I didn't research it.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the probable adoption of HD midi.
I know I would not spend relativily big bucks for any midi controller...key or drum or whatever without it.
0 to 127 ain't cutting it anymore. IMHO.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,
Thanks softsynth..I suspected as much, though I didn't research it.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the probable adoption of HD midi.
I know I would not spend relativily big bucks for any midi controller...key or drum or whatever without it.
0 to 127 ain't cutting it anymore. IMHO.
Rant warning:
I feel that HD- MIDI (not to be confused with HDMI!) is irrelevant to the requirements of a traditional piano style keyboard. Other tech like drums maybe different.
0-127 is far, FAR beyond the sensitivity of the human hand, especially when playing music!!!
Getting a keyboard that responds to 0-127 with a nice linear response with good key response is hard enough. Certainly it is no barrier to expression or realism. No player on Earth (or that has ever lived) could reliably and consistently hit an exact figure, other than near minimum or near maximum will playing music (especially if they were good and it was a good performance!).
Certainly it is also no barrier to realism in terms of expression for a traditional keyboard.

It's a red herring. Basically irrelevant in the real world. Great for marketing, not much else. Plenty of tech is more about marketing than really advancing the game.

It's precision and reliability that is expensive. It is easy to make a new generation of chipset that will handle more numbers; cheap as chips! Harder to make the real world sensors and mechanical parts reliably work together to make any sense of that in a tangible way.
That's what you pay for in the real world with a high quality camera, TV, projector, keyboard, Synthesizer, guitar you name it. Precision manufacturing and properly calibrated set up.

HD MIDI won't improve traditional piano style keyboards (Seaboard type products a different matter entirely). Fit that to cheap key mech the performance will still be inferior to a top quality traditional MIDI keyboard.
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:54 PM   #14
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With HD MIDI we could have MIDI files in megabytes instead of kilobytes.

BTW, I have a cheap Roland PC-300 and it can only have 16 velocity levels (8, 16, 24...) no matter how I hit the keys.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=161198
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:33 AM   #15
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Hi,

It depends on the player...

As far as hitting the same velo level, that's the point. If you have more levels, then to hit say the lower middle range one would sound more consistent.
If your telling me that an acoustic piano has around 128 levels of volume...well, sorry I don't agree.
Edit..sorry..and quality of build and components and a higher midi resolution are not mutually exclusive IMHO.
But I do see your point on it being more important in some instruments..drums..than others...wind controllers maybe?

Last edited by LugNut; 09-04-2016 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,

It depends on the player...

As far as hitting the same velo level, that's the point. If you have more levels, then to hit say the lower middle range one would sound more consistent.
If your telling me that an acoustic piano has around 128 levels of volume...well, sorry I don't agree.
Edit..sorry..and quality of build and components and a higher midi resolution are not mutually exclusive IMHO.
But I do see your point on it being more important in some instruments..drums..than others...wind controllers maybe?
Lugnut,
Of course an acoustic piano has no velocity layers!
So what, that's not a defining factor in the limitation of its realism of reproduction.

Think about it. Try MIDI OX to test your own velocity. Try to consistently hit the same exact velocity figure. Choose a velocity in mid point then try to consistently hit it, then the next figure say 90 to 91. Try it fast. Could you tell the difference between 90-91 at your fingertips?
See how close you could get it. Then imagine your preoccupied mind going for that superhuman precision from all your fingers when playing a piece of music!

This is hypothetical and completely untestable with a mechanical device.
However if you had two otherwise completely identical keyboards . One with HD MIDI and one without (or HD-MIDI disabled in software) then no one would know which one they were playing all things being equal.
I would not trust a manufacturer to supply their own keyboards to prove the hypothesis either way. They would make something different so you could find out which was which by other means.
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:15 AM   #17
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The issue that I have with the Casio PX-5S is no knobs or sliders which I find important for using VST plugins.

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Old 09-04-2016, 09:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John57b View Post
The issue that I have with the Casio PX-5S is no faders or sliders which I find important for using VST plugins.
The more I read this thread the more it sounds like you might be best served by using 2 keyboards, one a standard weighted keyboard, such as the Casio PX-5S, or even the less expensive Casio Privia models (they all use the same action), and on top of that a 61-key unweighted MIDI controller, one with all the knobs, sliders and buttons that you need, and one without sounds of its own. Yes this is more expensive, but it really is the best way to get the best of both worlds. A dedicated controller doesn't have to be expensive, and good ones can be had for $200-$300. Myself I use a Roland RD800 for my 88 key weighted keybed and an Alesis VI61 for the MIDI controller.
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:11 AM   #19
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For myself I have the Roland A-800PRO as my MIDI controller. I choose the Roland because of the proprietary MIDI driver which can make stuck notes far less likely than the M-audio Code for example and more dependable for my needs. The Roland can also use the standard MIDI driver as well. I have mix feeling about the spring loaded Modulation Stick but have work around for that. It has USB, MIDI IN/OUT, Hold and Expression pedals. I have VST's that requires a Expression pedal to work. I have access to a Casio 88 keyboard when I need it.
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John57b View Post
The issue that I have with the Casio PX-5S is no knobs or sliders which I find important for using VST plugins.
It has both. Did you mean another model?
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:05 PM   #21
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TL;DR:
Is there any difference between actions found on any of the Yamaha Motif and S-series (S08, S80, S90, S90ES, S90XS) keyboards? If so, on which model(s), and how does it differ from the other models?

Has anyone here had experience with either Yamaha's Motif or S-series 88-key keyboards? I've added them to the list of considerations for a solid 88-key MIDI controller for my DAW. I know the Motifs are gigantic, but I recall the Motif XS8 (the light blue/grey unit) I played at Guitar Center having a nice action, suitable for both piano and synth sounds. This was back in 2008, so it's difficult to tell how well the XS8's action compares to anything else. All Motifs and S-series boards also have a proper pitchbend and modwheel, as well as at least 4 faders. The faders can be assigned to custom CCs on the Motif XS and XF models. So that means they should play nicely with my VSTis (Omnisphere, Keyscape, etc.)

I don't like Yamaha's Graded Hammer Standard (GHS) action found on other Yamaha keyboards. It feels cheap and dull to me. The newer Yamaha MX88 has GHS. I've excluded any keyboard using GHS from my list of candidates.

To help keep track of keyboard models and keybeds, I've listed them below. The main question is: which action does each keyboard really have? I can't tell for sure, as you'll see below.

Motif and S-series 88-key models are listed below. To their right, I've listed all potential action names I've encountered:
MO8: BHE* / BHA+
Motif 8 (Classic): BHE* / BHA+
Motif ES 8: BHE* / BHA+
Motif XS8: BHE* / WHA+
Motif XF8: BHE*

S08: BHE* (no monophonic/channel aftertouch)
S80: Initial touch* (no mention of BHE, etc. in manual)
S90: BHE*
S90ES: BHE*
S90XS: BHE*

* = action matches official Yamaha product manual and/or Yamaha representative claim
+ = action taken from unofficial source (cited below)


Keybed/action names (taken from the manuals and links below):

Balanced Hammer Effect (BHE) - name used in all official Motif manuals
Balanced Hammer Action (BHA) - taken from an unofficial source - is this different from BHE?
Weighted Hammer Action (WHA) - taken from an unofficial source - is this different from BHE?
Yamaha A88 K6 - taken from an unofficial source - synonymous with BHE?

==========================================

So, if BHE=BHA, which I believe it does, then all models listed above are BHE. But I have a suspicion that BHE *may* have been modified over the years, and that those modifications may exist across the XF8, S90ES and S90XS. There are two reasons I suspect this:
1.) There are differences in unofficial action listing
2.) A user claims a difference in feel between the XF8 and S90ES/XS actions. Their quote is below.

Quote:
"Having owned an S90XS (and ES), plus having put in a few hours of playing/demo'ing time on a Motif XF8, I can say that the user touch/velocity interaction is quite different between the two instruments - especially with regard to playing piano. While both have a balanced, hammer action (vs. a graded, hammer action - as found on Yamaha's dedicated digital pianos), each plays a bit differently. I found the S Series to have a more 'subtle', piano like response. While I could play piano tones expressively on the XF8, the S90XS/ES provided a stronger sense of piano dynamic, IMO."
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthr...board_should_I

I recognize that the above claim could be the result of velocity curve settings and not due to mechanical differences in the keybed.

================================================== ========

Some additional references I used when researching Yamaha actions:

I did some digging on Google to figure out which keyboard has which action/keybed. I believe nearly all Motifs keyboards have the same action/keybed, which, according to this post, is a "Yamaha A88 K6". This leads me to believe that A88 K6=BHE.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elec...rs-listed.html

Quote:

"All the Motif 8 boards have the same balanced, weighted action (Motif 8 Classic, ES8, XS8 along with S90 Classic and S90 ES). It is a sublime action."
I read the manuals for these models. They all reflect this claim.
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...lla-18/327842-

Quote:
"The action on the Yamaha Motif ES8 is usually referred to as balanced hammer action, which is also used by the Motif XS8 and XF8, though there may be very minor revisions to teh keys in the newer models."
Does this mean BHE=BHA?
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/show...5&postcount=28

If BHE=BHA, then what about WHA? Here, the MO8 is listed as having "balanced hammer-action (BHA)". The XF8 is listed as having "weighted hammer-action (WHA)":
http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/motif.php
Does BHE=BHA=WHA? I sure hope so!

According to this Motif Wiki article, the action on all 88-key Motifs is referred to as "Balanced Hammer Effect (BHE)", just like the Motif manuals state.
Quote:
"The balanced hammer effect action is the same action found on Yamaha's S90 series keyboards."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Motif

To add to my confusion...
Quote:
"If you liked the ‘action’ on the S90, you will love the action on the S90XS. Much better architecture and I believe based on a ‘real’ piano."
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/f...460657/#539377

This suggests to me that the S90XS action varies from the S90. This is the second claim that the S90XS has a different action, but this time, in relation to the *S90*, as opposed to the XF8. But does it? And what about the S90XS action compared to the S90*ES* action? Do *those* vary as well?! I seriously doubt this, but I can't rule it out completely.

More conflicting reports (XS8 vs S90ES actions...:
"Although both were similar, it did seem that the S90ES was better than the XS8, however, I wonder if I was being influenced by fact that the piano sound was better in the S90ES."
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/f...thread/444562/

Quote:
"The key feel of the S08, S90 and Mo8 and MoES8 are all the same balanced hammer action. The S80 has a different key feel. It's balanced and hammer action but it is a different and in my opinion, lighter action. I prefer a heavy action."
http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbth..._v_S08_v_Motif

If my logic is correct, all this could mean that there are up to 5 (five) actions across all Motif and S models.
Action 1.) All non-XF8 Motifs (MO8, Classic 8, ES, XS) plus the S08 and S90
Action 2.) XF8
Action 3.) S80
Action 4.) S90ES
Action 5.) S90XS

To wrap up this post:
- All Motif manuals as well as the Wikipedia Motif article list all 88-key Motifs as using BHE.
- ...but the actions list in the above GS post show the XF8 as having BHE, while the other Motifs use "Yamaha A88 K6". Why? Just a typo?
- The A88 K6 action appears to be BHE, based on how the GS actions list relates to the Motif manuals.
- It appears to me that the XF8 action is modified in some way, and not exactly BHE or A88 K6.
- The S80, S90ES & S90XS actions may vary from other models, based on user's posts above.

Any thoughts on this? I know I went overboard with this post, but I haven't seen anyone address Motif & S-series action differences beyond the references I posted above.

PS:
Here's the official list of Yamaha's *graded* actions, in case anyone's interested. I can't find any official documentation on Yamaha's *balanced* actions outside of their product manuals. Does such a document exist?
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/...p-80/330/6575/
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