Having Trouble with Guitar Sims Sounding Good

[RoarPowerNZ]

Hey everyone, first time poster.

I am through and through mainly a death/thrash metal drummer, although I recently brought a Jackson JS22 Dinky to start learning some guitar riffs, get better at that, etc.

Long story short, didn't want to spend a lot of money where I very much just learning at this stage, so thought I would get an ok low priced guitar, plug it into my PC and get some amp sims running and I can have a little play/learn without needed to sound too "professional".

Just to be aware as well, I am a horrible guitar player. I have brought this so I can get better etc, so any demos I do won't be amazing in guitar playing. I do feel that bad playing aside, there's issues with the sound with the sims (as even open string playing sounds rubbish).

When I plug my guitar into my Focusrite 18i20 and use pretty much any amp/IR combo sim, it sounds absolutely rubbish. Nothing like what I can hear on the videos I watch.

I mainly watch this (https://youtu.be/DKlSPEaqex0?t=470) video from Ola to get the Ignite Emissary/NadIR combo going.

Here is the sound clip with the VSTs going:
https://soundcloud.com/matthew-devon...social_sharing

At the end of this, I first start lowering the "tone" knob from max to lowest, then max again. I then do the same after that with the volume knob. I have tried turning these down and recording, etc, but it still sounds rubbish no matter what I do.

I do also notice pretty much "electronic noise" when the guitar isn't doing anything. I have had problems with powerline ethernet adapters being slow in the room I am currently in and that could be due to bad power in this room. I am due to move out in about 6 weeks if that's the case, although do have my interface on top of my clean power center, more on that later in the thread.

Here it is clean so you can check the tuning or how it's coming in clean or w/e:
https://soundcloud.com/matthew-devon...social_sharing


Here is a video of what my DAW setup is like: https://youtu.be/E5OSB3z8-m8

Attached in the pictures are:

- The type of cable I am using to connect my guitar to my DAW
- Where my audio interface sits on top of my power center (more info about that can be found here: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/top...ith-9-outlets/) and could be the reason behind the bad sound.

I am sitting about 1 meter away from my computer when recording, although it doesn't seem to matter where I sit/which way I face, etc, it all sounds rubbish.

The guitar is in input 2 with the gain all the way down. Even moving it up a bit or w/e without clipping, all sounds rubbish. In input 1 is my mic (Rode Procaster) and I have never had anyone have any issues in Discord or whatever with that.

Let me know if more details are required and thanks in advance for any help.

[Nathannn]

Im not hearing a terrible tone with your guitar.

I can tell that the pickups that Ola is using are not the same and the mids are scooped a bit in Ola's demonstration.

The only thing that sounds close to terrible is that you have a mono setup

[dom64]

For noise issues, try using Bertom Audio's Denoiser as your first plugin in the signal chain:
(It's free/paywhatyouwant) https://bertomaudio.com/

[jscomposer]

Even in Ola's vid you can hear guitar/amp noise when he's just talking. That's normal for hi gain stuff. You can use a gate to tame it. Gating is part of how modern metal guitarists get that tight staccato sound.

On your clip, the most offensive thing is it's outta tune. Also sounds like you're using the neck pickup. Use the bridge pup (generally) for metal riffs. Neck pup is cool for solos and funk rhythm.

[RoarPowerNZ]

Originally Posted by Nathannn

Im not hearing a terrible tone with your guitar.

I can tell that the pickups that Ola is using are not the same and the mids are scooped a bit in Ola's demonstration.

The only thing that sounds close to terrible is that you have a mono setup

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah I will look at some guitar recording vids to suss a non mono setup. The only other I am aware of is changing to stereo, but from my knowledge that means it takes two of the inputs on my interface (just as a quick thought on what you said, will look into it though). I just really in the end want a decent sounding sim to jam along to some death/thrash metal tracks to in the end.

Originally Posted by dom64

For noise issues, try using Bertom Audio's Denoiser as your first plugin in the signal chain:
(It's free/paywhatyouwant) https://bertomaudio.com/

Thank you! I will definitely download and use that!

Originally Posted by jscomposer

Even in Ola's vid you can hear guitar/amp noise when he's just talking. That's normal for hi gain stuff. You can use a gate to tame it. Gating is part of how modern metal guitarists get that tight staccato sound.

On your clip, the most offensive thing is it's outta tune. Also sounds like you're using the neck pickup. Use the bridge pup (generally) for metal riffs. Neck pup is cool for solos and funk rhythm.

True, he does talk about that in comparison to the other sims, although I do get a bit of "electronic noise" on the other two sims he uses as well, but will definitely have a better go at taming it.

Thank you for being honest about that as well! As I said, just brought my first guitar and tried to tune it by ear as best as I could. I am using in that recording using the "middle" pickup selector switch option (so neck and bridge). I should just use the bridge instead?

Thank you again to those who replied!

[inertia]

You might also want to checkout Neural DSP plugins or Tonality for high gain metal stuff.

I always hit a wall with these other amp sims once you start using them for more than demo tracks as the sound never was as realistic as my Kemper or Axe FX II once you started layering rhythm and mixing. This changed with the Neural DSP plugins and I never looked back. Have now sold my hardware.

You will absolutely need a gate to tame high gain noise. This is true even when recording a real amp.

I used to have a hardware compressor perform as a gate to shut the input down to zero when not being played then another gate at the end to stop the amp noise. You can use a low latency input fx gate and the same for the normal fx chain. A lot of plugins have their own gate now anyway but I recommend trying an input fx gate too.

[jscomposer]

Originally Posted by RoarPowerNZ

I am using in that recording using the "middle" pickup selector switch option (so neck and bridge). I should just use the bridge instead?

Yes.

Reaper has a built-in tuner btw, ReaTune. Ideally you wanna make sure the strings are intonated too. And down the rabbit hole you go.... LOL

[JonLinnarson]

Aside from tuning the guitar and using only the bridge humbucker (for rhythm parts at least) I can see that you are using two completely different cab IRs blended with each other. That can cause some bad phase issues. If both of the IRs are minimum-phase transformed it won't be an issue, but if they are not it can sound weak/hollow/thin or muddy if you blend them.

Easiest way to know if they are okay to mix is by turning the balance knob in NadIR. If having the knob centred (0%) sounds as powerful as having the knob turned all the way to the left or to the right, they are minimum-phase transformed and okay to mix. If it sounds worse when centred (weaker, hollow, thin or boomy), they are not minimum-phase transformed.

If you haven't watched some videos about how to hold a pick correctly and how the pick should hit the strings (angle, how hard etc), that is something that can help immensely going forward. If you teach yourself how to play holding the pick wrong that can become a huge problem in the future. It's very difficult to get rid of bad habits, trust me!
How to grip the neck with your left hand is also very fundamental to learn straight away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igJSTWbcEiM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlV6WhM9YhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRtJQ99IBCA

After you've become comfortable with these things you can also look up how you mute the strings you are not playing. This is even more important when you play with a high-gain tone as every little imperfection in your playing will get amplified through the distortion. Muting the non-played strings with both your left- and right-hand while you are playing is key to a clean sounding technique.

Ben Eller has some great videos about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJIRmnpTFRc

[RoarPowerNZ]

Originally Posted by inertia

You might also want to checkout Neural DSP plugins or Tonality for high gain metal stuff.

I always hit a wall with these other amp sims once you start using them for more than demo tracks as the sound never was as realistic as my Kemper or Axe FX II once you started layering rhythm and mixing. This changed with the Neural DSP plugins and I never looked back. Have now sold my hardware.

You will absolutely need a gate to tame high gain noise. This is true even when recording a real amp.

I used to have a hardware compressor perform as a gate to shut the input down to zero when not being played then another gate at the end to stop the amp noise. You can use a low latency input fx gate and the same for the normal fx chain. A lot of plugins have their own gate now anyway but I recommend trying an input fx gate too.

This is amazing haha, I managed to hear back from one of my guitarists in my band and he recommended those exact sims haha. I downloaded the Neural Fortin Nameless plugin (got the 14 day trial at the moment) and that definitely seems the winner. Sent him some of the tones I got from that etc and he seemed really happy with how it was sounding. I trust his judgement and far happier than with any of the free plugins.

I will look into a gate/compressor type setup that you said. At the moment I used the Denoiser mentioned above as a input FX. As I get more into it I will look to set up what you have advised.

Thank you so much for your help

Originally Posted by jscomposer

Yes.

Reaper has a built-in tuner btw, ReaTune. Ideally you wanna make sure the strings are intonated too. And down the rabbit hole you go.... LOL

Sweet! Switched it to the bridge pickup. Thank you.

Ah ok I will use that. I downloaded the fender guitar tune amp just before and used that. Looks like I was decently close by ear, but not spot on. I will definitely try out the ReaTune plugin. Thank you

Originally Posted by JonLinnarson

Aside from tuning the guitar and using only the bridge humbucker (for rhythm parts at least) I can see that you are using two completely different cab IRs blended with each other. That can cause some bad phase issues. If both of the IRs are minimum-phase transformed it won't be an issue, but if they are not it can sound weak/hollow/thin or muddy if you blend them.

Easiest way to know if they are okay to mix is by turning the balance knob in NadIR. If having the knob centred (0%) sounds as powerful as having the knob turned all the way to the left or to the right, they are minimum-phase transformed and okay to mix. If it sounds worse when centred (weaker, hollow, thin or boomy), they are not minimum-phase transformed.

If you haven't watched some videos about how to hold a pick correctly and how the pick should hit the strings (angle, how hard etc), that is something that can help immensely going forward. If you teach yourself how to play holding the pick wrong that can become a huge problem in the future. It's very difficult to get rid of bad habits, trust me!
How to grip the neck with your left hand is also very fundamental to learn straight away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igJSTWbcEiM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlV6WhM9YhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRtJQ99IBCA

After you've become comfortable with these things you can also look up how you mute the strings you are not playing. This is even more important when you play with a high-gain tone as every little imperfection in your playing will get amplified through the distortion. Muting the non-played strings with both your left- and right-hand while you are playing is key to a clean sounding technique.

Ben Eller has some great videos about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJIRmnpTFRc

Oh my lord you are a champion haha. Thanks so much for the advice and the videos. I have found a couple about exercises, etc but definitely great to learn the solid fundamentals early. I will be studying these videos.

Will definitely check the phasing with the IR as well. I understand what you mean with using some drum mics (mainly with the top and bottom snare ones), so I will have a play around with how they are sounding.

Thanks for putting the time into replying and getting these resources for me. Appreciate it greatly.

[norbury brook]

Can I add to the great advice you've already received by saying that; for your amp sim to sound and 'feel' like it was designed to do then you really need to make sure your guitar is plugged into a 1M load. easiest way is to use a non true bypass pedal in front of your interface, as most Audio interfaces do not have a 1M high Z input.


Try it, it makes a big difference on a passive guitar as the pickups are designed to 'see' a 1M input and react to that.


M

[tonalstates]

This might sound like a joke but learn System Of a Down songs hahaha I feel they have and awesome blend between simple yet fun riffs, clean stuff and dynamics all round and the only hard thing about them sometimes is the picking speed (BYOB i.e.) so you challenge yourself a bit but then grown a bit in your technique so you try a slightly harder song, nail it and so on. Plus they're really good and fun songwriters so you might learn a bit on that side too. Learning songs is the best way to get better at it imo

They helped me a lot in a general sense when I was learning like 10 years ago. The only downside is the tuning but meh, if you don't have a floyd rose it should be fairly easy they mostly use Drop C and C#

Get a cheap looper pedal, they're fun too.

[DVDdoug]

I will look into a gate/compressor type setup that you said. At the moment I used the Denoiser mentioned above as a input FX. As I get more into it I will look to set up what you have advised.

Note that compression (including "saturating" or "overdriving" an amp or sim) will make the signal-to-noise ratio worse.

So it's even more important (or more helpful) to use a noise gate. A noise gate is "downward expansion". It's the opposite of dynamic compression but it works on the quiet parts instead of the loud parts. It expands the dynamics by making quiet parts quieter (or killing the sound completely) when the sound falls below the threshold.

...Noise is less of a problem if you are making a "full mix" with vocals and other instruments to drown-out the background noise. But noise is the biggest issue in recording, especially in "home studios" (not soundproof).

[Ilia Tilev]

From the audio i hear you need to tune and intonate your guitar. People underestimate what good and proper set up for a guitar can do especially for recording.
Also with high gain tones you need to pick hard to get clarity of course no too hard because you will go out of tune.
For high rhythm the tone and volume knobs should be at full.

You need to simplify things in the chain. I will suggest you to not have multiple IR's. Don't overcomplicate things.
I don't know what amp sims you are using but in 2022 i think most amps sims are equally good. For high gain stuff the free Amped Roots by ML Sound Lab is awesome.

But the path to a great tone is the playing. There's no escape from good technique.

[chacka]

A few things that I didn't see mentioned (sorry, if I missed it above) for good tone:
The easiest one first: By far the biggest part of your guitar tone comes from the Speaker IR. Yeah, true. Learn it early, it took me decades to drop my ignorance on this part.
EDIT: Here is a cool video to show case that. Yeah, it is that crazy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mystiTTQwWY
The good part about this: Forget about expensive plugins. Seriously. You CAN get awesome tone from cheap and free ones.
As a beginner it is cool to have mix ready tones. The ones I know that help in that direction are Toneforge stuff. This is my tip for spending money if you want to.

The second part is: YOU make the sound. Way more than you think. It is the same as with real drums, you can mess up so badly on a simple four on the floor. Same and worse with guitar. HOW and WHERE you hit the string, dampening; HOW you fret the strings, all very important. This is a time consuming thing to get good at. My tip: Record yourself. Analyse it. What do you like exactly? What exactly don't you like about it? Your sound example was cool from the amp/cab tone side, tuning and your playing messed it up, honestly bro.
Ah BTW, fresh strings help. Don't let them become older than a few weeks. Less is better.
So much to say, but you have quite some awesome resources now, see videos meantioned above. Youtube is so cool for this nowadays. I wish I had all this back then... Reaper, Youtube, affordable good guitars, plugins... Hahaha, seriously!

Enjoy! :-)

[RoarPowerNZ]

All amazing advice from everyone above. Thanks so much and definitely taking it all into consideration going forward!