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05-28-2007, 06:26 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,182
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mono tracks for mono plugins
As we all know, Reaper is always stereo. That's why I wonder if it's possible to insert mono>mono or mono>stereo plugins on a track ?
I am asking, because UAD provides mono versions of its plugins that use less DSP, and some DX plugins that require mono input (for isntance some QSound) do not show in the FX list at all.
So, a mono switch on a channel (let any channel become a master ) plus a JS plugin doing a 2 in -> 1 out mixdown/reduction would be appreciated by the undersigned .
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05-28-2007, 06:32 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 1,681
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Reaper is always stereo??? I have a bunch of mono tracks (most of them actually). At least I think I do....am I missing something?
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05-28-2007, 06:48 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I think what he's saying is that feeding a mono signal into a mono instance of a plugin (like Waves which in my case doesn't show mono versions of it's plugs) may use less cpu than feeding the stereo version of a plug with two channels of the same mono source audio.
It does appear that Reaper's FX bus is always "two channels". Even with a mono source. Is the FX bus handling dual streams for a mono source? If so that's twice as much audio stream as is necessary with for instance a center panned bass track that would normally feed a mono plugin.
I think.
Last edited by Lawrence; 05-28-2007 at 06:52 AM.
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05-28-2007, 06:49 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,182
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See in the routing window:
2 channels are minimum.
Yes, you can mixdown items to mono, or use only one channel x2, but you cannot have a single one channel "real mono" track. That is why some installed plugins cannot be loaded.
Thank you Lawrence for your help in explaining my post !
Last edited by sebas777; 05-28-2007 at 06:54 AM.
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05-29-2007, 03:23 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41
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Yes, please, put "1 channel" option for make new mono tracks...
:-)
Last edited by Collo; 05-29-2007 at 03:26 PM.
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05-29-2007, 08:03 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo
Yes, please, put "1 channel" option for make new mono tracks...
:-)
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++1 for this!
hm
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05-29-2007, 09:02 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hungary
Posts: 3,129
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it's a must have, imo
+1, a big one
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06-07-2007, 04:06 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41
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Yes, a MUST... So, when mono tracks will be available in Reaper?
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06-07-2007, 04:42 PM
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#9
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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you can still insert mono->mono plugs in a stereo track..
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06-07-2007, 04:52 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 8,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
you can still insert mono->mono plugs in a stereo track..
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I tested this after reading this thread, and it seems to work just fine (Simulanalog distortion fx), so I've been wondering what the problem is...? Reaper not recognizing mono-to-mono-plugins? But at least the Simulanalog ones do show up in the fx browser...
Oh, and of course even if you have a stereo item on the track, you can have both channels going into the mono plugin...(Reaper doesn't do this by default, it takes just the left channel, but it can be done by pressing the button "1 Ins" on the fx rack window and checking both channels in the "VST input" submenu...)
-X
Last edited by Xenakios; 06-07-2007 at 04:56 PM.
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06-07-2007, 05:04 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,182
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Have you tried it with Waves plugins ?
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06-07-2007, 05:08 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 8,062
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Ah, ok, it's a DX-related problem right? I don't use DX plugins if I don't have to...But I seem to recall mono-only DX plugins in Reaper don't have the handy input channels selection menu...
Oh, I must be too tired again to think clearly. So the problem is that Reaper doesn't accept mono-only DX plugins in the fx chain or show them at all in the fx-browser...? That's a shortcoming, of course. But must that be solved by introducing a new mono track-type?
-X
Last edited by Xenakios; 06-07-2007 at 05:20 PM.
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06-07-2007, 06:01 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,182
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Well. Mono tracks are good for many reasons For instance it's easier to import many stereo items and with one click turn a track to mono. Or to change output mode after plugins and pan it as a single stream.
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06-08-2007, 09:55 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
you can still insert mono->mono plugs in a stereo track..
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I think that, with real mono tracks, each plugins eat 50% of Cpu consumption. This is right?
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06-11-2007, 09:24 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 103
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I would very much like to have mono and split-mono
stereo tracks. interleaving and splitting tracks
from stereo to mono has some undesirable (imho) effects
on the overall gain structure (interleave summation
and pan laws, etc.) which can be cumbersome to manage.
For some effects (analog tape saturation for example),
one wants each channel to behave completely independently,
and the split-mono stereo track (with duplicated plugs
for L/R and the ability to unlink) is great. Some plugs
allow the interleaved processing to be unlinked .. and
some don't.. with split-mono stereo, it's not a problem.
Secondarily, split mono stereo allows one to muck around
with the spatial imaging without having to resort to M/S
processing plugs like the Waves SR-1.
probably a V2 thing as well.
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06-11-2007, 09:27 AM
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#16
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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fwiw, for VSTs, you can treat each track as stereo, but have fine grain control over where each plug-in (be it mono or stereo) takes its input (left, right, left+right), and puts its output (left, right, or stereo)..
the notion of having the track have a "type" isn't really needed..
though for bringing a stereo signal from two mono streams, something is needed, and something will likely be coming in 2.x...
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06-11-2007, 05:45 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
fwiw, for VSTs, you can treat each track as stereo, but have fine grain control over where each plug-in (be it mono or stereo) takes its input (left, right, left+right), and puts its output (left, right, or stereo)..
the notion of having the track have a "type" isn't really needed..
though for bringing a stereo signal from two mono streams, something is needed, and something will likely be coming in 2.x...
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For example, if I have a track of guitar (mono) and I put a wahwah, a comp, a dist, an eq & a delay, without the mono track option the real situation is that I'm using 2 wahwah, 2 comp, 2 dist, 2 eq & 2 delays... like the "Arca of Noè"!
:-(
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06-12-2007, 06:52 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo
I think that, with real mono tracks, each plugins eat 50% of Cpu consumption. This is right?
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i think so. also even reaper itself (streaming/mixing of the tracks) would run more efficient i think. should only use 50% of the needed bandwith then!?
so ++1 for real mono-tracks!
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06-12-2007, 03:57 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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does using one stereo track uses more cpu than one mono ?
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06-12-2007, 03:59 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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of course. just set a track to 64 channels and you see how it scales ...
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06-12-2007, 04:20 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
of course. just set a track to 64 channels and you see how it scales ...
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That's what i thought
So, maybe having mono tracks could be a fine option to ease up the cpu of older computers ?
(2 cents)
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06-12-2007, 04:25 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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yeah of course.
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06-12-2007, 10:06 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
of course. just set a track to 64 channels and you see how it scales ...
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interleaved formats usually store each channel as consecutive
sample data .... e.g.
StereoSample1 {
float leftChannel;
float rightChannel;
}
so a mono track (once interleaved) will required twice the storage and
(unless the plug is smart) twice the DSP resources of an equivalent
mono track. If one isn't ready to place the track spatially at that
stage of the mix, then it's unnecessary information to carry along.
while it's good that the VST format has the flexibility to bi-sect the
stereo samples, i would prefer if the bussing structure of the host
supported the concept natively. i'm always skeptical as to what
happens before and after a plug when channel formats are manipulated.
jeff
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05-20-2008, 06:26 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germany's California
Posts: 1,543
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!group "Mono Tracks"
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06-30-2010, 01:31 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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whether mono tracks or simply the option to choose, which version of the plugin loads - mono, stereo or multichannel.
many plugins do not come as seperate versions, but are all in one and the host hast to tell the plugin, which configuration to fire up when loading.
until now (reaper 3.63, mac) i cannot use the mono version of many plugins i have installed. that uses more cpu than actually necessary.
also a multi mono load, like in protools would be nice. mono versions of the plugin loaded on all channels of the track with controls linked or unlinked as desired (via automation)
Last edited by ytiralugnis; 06-30-2010 at 01:33 AM.
Reason: typo
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06-30-2010, 02:16 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,713
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+ 1 to having mono tracks...........however, this would *break* the way Reaper handles sidechaining, so I very much doubt it will ever happen.
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06-30-2010, 03:02 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd
+ 1 to having mono tracks...........however, this would *break* the way Reaper handles sidechaining, so I very much doubt it will ever happen.
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why is that? i think mono tracks would even expand the possibilities.
but even if they don't add mono tracks, it would be nice that they simply give me the choice of which version of the plugin to load. the rest i do with the routing already available in reaper. that already works for plugins which are available as separate mono versions. they simply appear as 1in/1out.
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06-30-2010, 05:05 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytiralugnis
also a multi mono load, like in protools would be nice. mono versions of the plugin loaded on all channels of the track with controls linked or unlinked as desired (via automation)
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You can do that already.
By default, a mono plugin will have the left channel of the track connected to its input and its output will be connected to channels 1 and 2.
You just insert as many mono plugins as you want to a track and for each one, connect channel X to it's input channel and connect its output channel to channel X too. Then parameter link the parameters you want to be linked (and put a slight scale or offset on one side too if you want).
You can then save the plugins (either just two of the same plugins for a dual mono version of it, or more if you like) as FX Chains so the next time you load them they will all load with the connections already made.
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06-30-2010, 06:45 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman
You can do that already.
By default, a mono plugin will have the left channel of the track connected to its input and its output will be connected to channels 1 and 2.
You just insert as many mono plugins as you want to a track and for each one, connect channel X to it's input channel and connect its output channel to channel X too. Then parameter link the parameters you want to be linked (and put a slight scale or offset on one side too if you want).
You can then save the plugins (either just two of the same plugins for a dual mono version of it, or more if you like) as FX Chains so the next time you load them they will all load with the connections already made.
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Sure, thanks. But for the workflow it could be done automatically, as in Pro Tools. That would be really cool.
And as stated above, i can only insert mono version which are available as separate plugin. Solera for example, one of my favorite compressors, i cannot use in mono mode.
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06-30-2010, 07:00 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Aren't dedicated mono plugins pretty much dead these days? I don't own a single mono plugin ...
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06-30-2010, 12:37 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Aren't dedicated mono plugins pretty much dead these days? I don't own a single mono plugin ...
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Right, me neither. But:
First: I am pretty sure you own a LOT of plugins with mono versions. Almost every EQ and dynamics plugins for example provide a mono version for insertion into mono channels.
Second: Maybe there are no mono-only plugins but mono processing will never be dead. For example your favorite compressor plugin doesn't offer unlinked processing. So what you gonna do? You load two instances of its mono version and treat each channel individually. Same with MS-compression with your favorite compressor which doesn't offer MS natively. Or imagine you recorded a beautiful acoustic guitar with 2 mikes and need to eq both mikes differently to get a well balanced sound.
And now imagine that in surround at 96kHz or higher. When you then have to operate with stereo plugins instead of mono, you will be wasting alot of processing power, not just a little. That is, why it is so important to have the mono versions available.
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06-30-2010, 12:44 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytiralugnis
I am pretty sure you own a LOT of plugins with mono versions.
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No, I don't.
AFAIK VST 2.4 doesn't need that.
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06-30-2010, 12:50 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
No, I don't.
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Then you are the great exception. And you own almost no EQ and dynamics plugins at all. Because i dont know of any which only offer stereo processing and thus cannot be inserted as mono->mono into a mono channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
AFAIK VST 2.4 doesn't need that.
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One has nothing to do with the other. VST 2.4 is just a version of Steinbergs "Communication Protocol" for data transfer between the plugins intestines and the host. It doesn't make mono processing obsolete.
Last edited by ytiralugnis; 06-30-2010 at 01:00 PM.
Reason: typo, addition
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06-30-2010, 01:10 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytiralugnis
Then you are the great exception. And you own almost no EQ and dynamics plugins at all. Because i dont know of any which only offer stereo processing
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One word: Voxengo. They don't work on mono tracks? Doubt that.
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06-30-2010, 01:32 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
One word: Voxengo. They don't work on mono tracks? Doubt that.
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Just tried that in Logic. Voxengo works perfect on mono channels, as mono->mono. Or are we completely misunderstanding each other?
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06-30-2010, 01:46 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytiralugnis
Just tried that in Logic. Voxengo works perfect on mono channels, as mono->mono. Or are we completely misunderstanding each other?
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No. That's what I wanted to say. They don't need separate "mono" version of their plugins. It's a single DLL.
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06-30-2010, 01:52 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
No. That's what I wanted to say. They don't need separate "mono" version of their plugins. It's a single DLL.
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Ok, so that was a classic misunderstanding.
But that is actually the problem in Reaper. Reaper can load plugins with separate mono versions as mono. But plugins which are integrated, meaning one single file offering the choice of input/output format and thus processing to the host, cannot be loaded into reaper as mono in/mono out, simply because Reaper does not give us the choice.
Or can you load Voxengo Gliss EQ as mono in/mono out into Reaper?
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06-30-2010, 02:22 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytiralugnis
Or can you load Voxengo Gliss EQ as mono in/mono out into Reaper?
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No. REAPER doesn't have mono tracks.
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06-30-2010, 02:27 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
No. REAPER doesn't have mono tracks.
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That's why we need them in Reaper.
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