Old 08-08-2018, 11:51 PM   #81
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasar
The right to have a private, offline creative workstation
is inherent and fundamental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
True!

It is a principle of freedom that gets violated here,

... independent of the assumption "that a short internet-
connection just for activation would or wouldn't harm
the DAW-system."
Let's have ...

... a further look on this issue:

Native Instruments didn't violate any law when they
decided to cancel their offline-activation mode.

More than that: It is fully legal to adapt their processes
for the benefit of the company. In this case NI
have simplified their activation process - and they
have optimized their registry protection.

But on the other side ...

... there is a fishy smell, because NI do have a
quasy-monopoly: They have the market leading
sampler "Kontakt" - and many many other
companies constructed sample-sets based on
their Kontakt-software. With their step of canceling
the offline-activation they force not only all their
customers to follow - they also force all the third-
party companies to do this step also and cancel
offline activation for their Kontakt-based products.

You may object that canceling the offline-activation
concerns future purchases and customers only. Yes,
but in the consideration of software products it cuts
the product update line for bugfixes of existing
products. And we have to state that investing in
a complex software the customer does not only
buy a single software at a fix date. He also invests
and trusts into a whole product-line including
bugfixes, potential updates and the evolution of a
product.

IMO here is a legal loophole. Any major change of
the "terms and conditions" in case of a monopolist
must be regulated.

On 27 February 2008, the EU fined Microsoft €899
million (US$1.44 billion) for failure to comply with the
March 2004 antitrust decision. Reason: Microsoft
blocked competing browsers of other companies -
they abused their monopole.

In 2018 the EU fined Google €4.34 billion for illegal
practices regarding Android mobile devices to
strengthen dominance of Google's search engine.

IMO a similar fine should be put on NI for breaching
antitrust rules. This fine must be enunciated by the
EU or by responsible cartel authorities. But I think
this won't happen because all in all NI is too small
and their monopole only covers an alcove of music
production. So NI will manage to get by only because
they act on a small niche market area, which is
not in focus of politics and cartel authorities.
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Last edited by enroe; 08-09-2018 at 05:59 AM. Reason: orthografics
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:42 AM   #82
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Market-leading does not mean it's the only option available. So it's not a monopoly, and you can't really bring anti-trust laws into this all. Perhaps ask 3rd party developers why 3rd party development of libraries for Falcon, HALion or HISE didn't catch up as much as Kontakt's? There's a very good reason beyond Kontakt's widespread availability on the market, and that is - it's simply the most efficient sampler out there for big libraries. So devs who need those big libraries done efficiently will naturally flock to Kontakt (or plop millions of dollars down to make their own sampler - which is always a risky gamble). That's not NI's fault (or, it is, because they coded it so efficiently?).

And also, it doesn't seem that UVI and Steinberg are even trying to shoot at 3rd party extensibility of their samplers. Sure, they offer features to do so, but it's just not catching on - I wonder why? I'll tell you it's not because of NI, for sure - developers are free to choose which sampler to develop for. NI doesn't force anyone to pick Kontakt and Kontakt only.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 08-09-2018 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:06 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgraph View Post
"and to continue enjoying the technology even if the licensor becomes bankrupt."

I guess I don't follow this supposed guarantee of service in perpetuity... If a store goes bankrupt, future customers are SOL.
But the products they bought there are still functional. Not so if they go under and can no longer activate their software
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:09 AM   #84
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I once read that NI gave a general activation code to a lawyer and same will publish same in case of a NI not being active any more, and with that code all their product can be permanently activated.

-Michael
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:24 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Let's have ...

... a further look on this issue:

Native Instruments didn't violate any law when they
decided to cancel their offline-activation mode.

More than that: It is fully legal to adapt their processes
for the benefit of the company. In this case NI
have simplified their activation process - and they
have optimized their registry protection.

But on the other side ...

... there is a fishy smell, because NI do have a
quasy-monopoly: They have the market leading
sampler "Kontakt" - and many many other
companies constructed sample-sets based on
their Kontakt-software. With their step of canceling
the offline-activation they force not only all their
customers to follow - they also force all the third-
party companies to do this step also and cancel
offline activation for their Kontakt-based products.

You may object that canceling the offline-activation
concerns future purchases and customers only. Yes,
but in the consideration of software products it cuts
the product update line for bugfixes of existing
products. And we have to state that investing in
a complex software the customer does not only
buy a single software at a fix date. He also invests
and trusts into a whole product-line including
bugfixes, potential updates and the evolution of a
product.

IMO here is a legal loophole. Any major change of
the "terms and conditions" in case of a monopolist
must be regulated.

On 27 February 2008, the EU fined Microsoft €899
million (US$1.44 billion) for failure to comply with the
March 2004 antitrust decision. Reason: Microsoft
blocked competing browsers of other companies -
they abused their monopole.

In 2018 the EU fined Google €4.34 billion for illegal
practices regarding Android mobile devices to
strengthen dominance of Google's search engine.

IMO a similar fine should be put on NI for breaching
antitrust rules. This fine must be enunciated by the
EU or by responsible cartel authorities. But I think
this won't happen because all in all NI is too small
and their monopole only covers an alcove of music
production. So NI will manage to get by only because
they act on a small niche market area, which is
not in focus of politics and cartel authorities.
Reasonable, cogent summation.

But besides the unlikelihood that NI would ever be held liable for antitrust violations, would it even matter if they were?

I'm not sure how these things usually work in the EU (which to my admittedly limited awareness seems to be somewhat more advanced than the USA when it comes to checking corporate-sponsored oppression), but in the US when large companies are prosecuted for going too far (illegal toxic dump sites or whatever) they typically receive fines that amount to but a small fraction of the profits generated by breaking the law to begin with. It's little more than a cynical charade...

Besides, I don't want NI to be punished. I only want them to honor the terms and conditions under which many of us became purchasers of their products. Any possible pressure (however remote) that could be brought to bear in this regard would likely have to come from the grassroots, end-user level, not from the courts.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:43 AM   #86
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EULA never stated that offline activation of their products will be available forever, IIRC.
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
EULA never stated that offline activation of their products will be available forever, IIRC.
With disingenuous nonsense like this, you're a shoe in to be Trump's next press officer.
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:49 PM   #88
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Fuck Trump LOL.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:42 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
EULA never stated that offline activation of their products will be available forever, IIRC.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:05 PM   #90
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Anyone want to buy some NI licenses?

(seriously)
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:37 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
EULA never stated that offline activation of their products will be available forever, IIRC.
Just wondering - has NI ever provided a good reason for withdrawing off-line activation?
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:30 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Just wondering - has NI ever provided a good reason for withdrawing off-line activation?
One thing I find odd with service Center is that programs with NKS support have been added to the list of Service Center, as if they were registered NI products. Hence new 2018 U-HE, AAS and Pianoteq products are listed as registered in Service Center. Is this intentional?

These non NI products don't appear in Native Access.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:33 AM   #93
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If a 3rd party product is NKS-enabled, it will show in Service Center because they didn't update it to discern between these things (and they won't, since it's dicontinued).
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:42 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
... there is a fishy smell, because NI do have a
quasy-monopoly: They have the market leading
sampler "Kontakt" - and many many other
companies constructed sample-sets based on
their Kontakt-software.
It wouldn't be as bad if Tascam hadn't kicked GigaStudio to the curb a mere 3 years after they purchased the technology. In fact, the main reason I purchased Kontakt was because I needed a dependable sampler to protect my investment in the Vienna Symphonic Library samples I had purchased for GigaSampler format. It was a huge pain converting everything over, but I finally got it all working as desired.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:54 AM   #95
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Ght
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
If a 3rd party product is NKS-enabled, it will show in Service Center because they didn't update it to discern between these things (and they won't, since it's dicontinued).
That's what I figured. I brought it up because I thought it might be relevant in part as to why they went to Native Access.
Since all these modern op.systems are designed to be used when connected to the net it should hardly be much of an issue.
This is being blown out of proportion by a few, though I do wish offline authorization was still available.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:04 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Ght

This is being blown out of proportion by a few (...)
To put it mildly ...

This thread cracks me up ... couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program are ready to file a complaint with the UN Human Rights Committee against a German company that has changed its end user license agreement.

Yeah, that's a real winner there.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:09 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
To put it mildly ...

couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program are ready to file a complaint with the UN Human Rights Committee
^That's a slight misrepresentation - for example, it's not the $60 DAW, it's the $1200 plugin suite (depending on whether it is on sale). That's my personal scenario being a Komplete Ultimate 11 user - I already chimed in on the embellishment, but there should be no reason someone can't be rightfully annoyed about losing the ability to register an expensive software investment offline.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:12 AM   #98
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To put it mildly ...

couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program
Well, I invested way more than $60 in NI related products!!

I discover the problem, I was not aware of this.
But I hate all these copy protection things... what is the goal? It does not protect from anything, everything is cracked anyway.
It simply annoys the legit users that paid full licenses.

Even worse than NI, you have Waves: they don't allow you to use the software on more than one PC. You have to move the license each time you go from your desktop to your laptop!! Which make people who did not buy the license have a good laugh, because they did not pay AND they can use it everywhere. But as I paid, I can't!!
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:13 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
To put it mildly ...

This thread cracks me up ... couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program are ready to file a complaint with the UN Human Rights Committee against a German company that has changed its end user license agreement.

Yeah, that's a real winner there.
Not pointing any fingers but I do wonder how many of the people that complain the loudest on this stuff on various forums are actually using a combination with cracked software. Maybe paranoid they could at some point get discovered and lose their ill gotten software?
Also NI Komplete like Cockos Reaper is one of the best value products that exist in terms of software.
Cockos and NI (when you know how best to purchase the respective companies products) are seriously good value, they just go about it in different ways.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:15 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Not pointing any fingers but I do wonder how many of the people that complain the loudest on this stuff on various forums are actually using a combination with cracked software. Maybe paranoid they would lose their ill gotten software?
I don't think so because cracked versions would bypass all of this. Funny side note, I owned a fully paid for box retail version of Logic for PC in the late 90s. I used the cracked version because it was 10 times more stable.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:19 AM   #101
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I don't think so because cracked versions would bypass all of this. Funny side note, I owned a fully paid for box retail version of Logic for PC in the late 90s. I used the cracked version because it was 10 times more stable.
Do cracked versions not phone home for anything?
Are they 100% sure it won't be discovered?

As for using a cracked version of software you already bought I have no problem with that - all power to your elbow!
I would also do that if a company went belly up without making the software work without special authorization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
^That's a slight misrepresentation - for example, it's not the $60 DAW, it's the $1200 plugin suite (depending on whether it is on sale). That's my personal scenario being a Komplete Ultimate 11 user - I already chimed in on the embellishment, but there should be no reason someone can't be rightfully annoyed about losing the ability to register an expensive software investment offline.
I bought Komplete 8 for £60 (shop closure to be fair) and Komplete 11 upgrade for £120 on a hard drive. Some people are apparently prepared to pay that combined price on a single plugin!!!
Not likely to go to Ultimate. Multi versions of Ultimate really add up!

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Old 08-10-2018, 06:28 AM   #102
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Do cracked versions not phone home for anything?
Are they 100% sure it won't be discovered?
They just intercept all the calls and answer them locally as "OK". For example one of the cracked DAWs (I forget which) used a dongle... The crack included a windows service that ran and emulated a dongle to the system, which just answered that authorization succeeded every time the DAW asked. Any phone home attempts in lieu of a dongle would either be prevented from occurring or answered in a similar way.

Funny note on that, the dongle tracked how many license protection calls occurred and it was near 300 times JUST to launch the app. IIRC the team that cracked that version said "f$ck it" we'll stop.... because the DAW was spending more time checking licenses than it was processing audio. It was a comment on the fact that the creator was so much more interested in stopping kids from using unauthorized versions, they had no problem killing performance for paying users in the process.

In the early days, it was a much simpler process, disassemble the app into assembly code, look for the instruction that checks for a license, add a 'jump' instruction right before that to just skip it. No I'm not hacker and do not condone piracy (I have plenty of old posts to prove it). I just learned a lot about it academically 20 years ago and subsequent employment that took me into debugging assembly code made it easier to understand how it is often approached.

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Old 08-10-2018, 06:30 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post


I bought Komplete 8 for £60 (shop closure to be fair) and Komplete 11 upgrade for £120 on a hard drive. Some people are apparently prepared to pay that combined price on a single plugin!!!
Not likely to go to Ultimate. Multi versions of Ultimate really add up!
I started with Komplete 9 Ultimate - but I picked up a Maschine MK3 a couple months ago and noticed the upgrade to 11 was small enough that I went ahead and did it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:46 AM   #104
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Post 102 was interesting, cheers.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:46 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by alextone View Post
With disingenuous nonsense like this, you're a shoe in to be Trump's next press officer.
There is nothing disingenuous there, it's accurate. Really, if you don't have an agreement with a company that they won't go to an online activation methodology for their software, you can't reasonable expect that they won't.


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Fuck Trump LOL.
Seconded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
there should be no reason someone can't be rightfully annoyed about losing the ability to register an expensive software investment offline.
Agreed.

Though just to reiterate to others, it is an annoyance, not something worthy of trying to get the EU to file antitrust suits against NI for wrongdoing on NI's part.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:41 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
To put it mildly ...

This thread cracks me up ... couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program are ready to file a complaint with the UN Human Rights Committee against a German company that has changed its end user license agreement.

Yeah, that's a real winner there.
post of the day.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:04 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by crootnik View Post
post of the day.
++ 1xxxxxxxxx !
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:49 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
To put it mildly ...

This thread cracks me up ... couple of guys that use a $60 DAW program are ready to file a complaint with the UN Human Rights Committee against a German company that has changed its end user license agreement.

Yeah, that's a real winner there.
Your apathetic, callous disregard for end-user software rights, however nauseatingly depressing it may be, does seem to be popular. I'll grant you that.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:30 AM   #109
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Your apathetic, callous disregard for end-user software rights, however nauseatingly depressing it may be, does seem to be popular. I'll grant you that.
Lighten up man, they haven't gone to some godawful cloud service model or anything!
Seriously what's the real problem?

You should back your drives up regularly anyway.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:13 PM   #110
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Lighten up man, they haven't gone to some godawful cloud service model or anything!
Seriously what's the real problem?

You should back your drives up regularly anyway.
The real problem is that my DAW workstation is NOT a global communications device. It's a private workstation. I bought into the NI ecosystem in no small part because they offered an offline activation system that respected this privacy, then - from a position of monopolistic power - betrayed those of us who bought in under those terms.

This betrayal, this new Native Access malware that quite literally exists to hijack my offline space, constitutes a form of piracy that is far more heinous than the two-bit illegal piracy that everyone loves to self-righteously rail against, because it operates from a position of power and a facade of legality, protected by laws written by capitalist power-brokers and existing only to serve capital.

Beyond that, I am outraged that more people are not outraged, that such a core violation of the fundamental right to have an autonomous workstation not subject to the vicissitudes of the World Wide Web doesn't seem to matter. When even the artists in Western society become nothing more than mouthpieces for the decrepit, greed-ridden corporate status quo, then there really is no hope.

Hegel said that "History teaches us that we learn nothing from history." Hegel was right. People continue to be active and even enthusiastic participants in their own oppression.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Quasar View Post
The real problem is that my DAW workstation is NOT a global communications device. It's a private workstation. I bought into the NI ecosystem in no small part because they offered an offline activation system that respected this privacy, then - from a position of monopolistic power - betrayed those of us who bought in under those terms.

This betrayal, this new Native Access malware that quite literally exists to hijack my offline space, constitutes a form of piracy that is far more heinous than the two-bit illegal piracy that everyone loves to self-righteously rail against, because it operates from a position of power and a facade of legality, protected by laws written by capitalist power-brokers and existing only to serve capital.

Beyond that, I am outraged that more people are not outraged, that such a core violation of the fundamental right to have an autonomous workstation not subject to the vicissitudes of the World Wide Web doesn't seem to matter. When even the artists in Western society become nothing more than mouthpieces for the decrepit, greed-ridden corporate status quo, then there really is no hope.

Hegel said that "History teaches us that we learn nothing from history." Hegel was right. People continue to be active and even enthusiastic participants in their own oppression.
I understand that you’re frustrated, but this is not healthy. Ever hear the phrase “making a mountain out of a mole hill”?

You’ve surpassed that - you’re making an entire galaxy out of a mole hill.

Lighten up. For your own health.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:46 PM   #112
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And to think that Quasar's original stance was relatively mild initially.

https://www.native-instruments.com/f.../#post-1591023
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:00 PM   #113
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I understand that you’re frustrated, but this is not healthy. Ever hear the phrase “making a mountain out of a mole hill”?

You’ve surpassed that - you’re making an entire galaxy out of a mole hill.

Lighten up. For your own health.
Issues of human rights regarding privacy and autonomy in the 21st century are terribly important, and corporfascist control-freak oppression in the sample library arena is but one tiny aspect of a much bigger picture, involving virtually every aspect of the human experience as smart technology takes hold...

...This is so whether one chooses to see it or not.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:08 PM   #114
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And to think that Quasar's original stance was relatively mild initially.

https://www.native-instruments.com/f.../#post-1591023
I was still in the "denial" stage of the so-called Five Stages of Grief when I wrote that, trying but ultimately failing to look at this travesty in as positive of a light as possible.

At the end of the day, it still just makes me sad even more than angry. I used to really like Native Instruments, and I wish that I still could.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Quasar View Post
Issues of human rights regarding privacy and autonomy in the 21st century are terribly important, and corporfascist control-freak oppression in the sample library arena is but one tiny aspect of a much bigger picture, involving virtually every aspect of the human experience as smart technology takes hold...

...This is so whether one chooses to see it or not.
Don't worry dude, I'm with you in terms of the bigger picture. You're absolutely right that at this time we are witnessing reversals of human rights of many forms and there seems to be no end in sight. How long before we have to be "online" just to walk into our homes? Drive our cars? Drink water? Think about it.

The true irony is that I bought a bunch of Waves plugs in the last year because I wanted to be fair to the good plugs that they are instead of....but now I'm having to load the previous versions just to use them at home and in the office because of their restrictive drm.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:02 PM   #116
Judders
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Jesus christ, if you don't like the way a company does business, don't use their products.

No-one has a monopoly on music. If you don't want to deal with corporations then buy some second-hand instruments, or better yet build your own, and make music.

This is one of the biggest cases of entitled victimhood hyperbole I've ever read on the internet, and that bar is set very high!

What a mind-blowing thread. Fundamental rights my arse. There are people on this planet who don't have access to water, or know when a bomb might drop from the sky and kill their loved ones, and you feel hard done by? Honestly, get some perspective and get over yourself, then get back to making music.

...or waste your short and precious time on this planet writing snarky letters to the European Commission instead of making music, but whatever you do, do something instead of whining to strangers on the internet.

Last edited by Judders; 08-10-2018 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:05 PM   #117
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Serious side-note question:

How does the user know (or can they know) if a software is "pinging home" as part of its online authorization every time it is being used? Is that common, compared to just needing to connect online once when the software is initially installed?

I have no problem with the latter personally, but I do take issue with software that "checks up on you" every time you use it. What if you're doing location recording in a remote area with no access? Also in theory that constant checking-in could lead to tracking your uses and locations for advertising (and who knows what else?) purposes, and I am definitely not cool with that. It's already feeling like everything I do in my life is tracked, logged, analyzed and sold to advertisers...

Semi-related side note:

I just recently dug out my old copy of Battery 3. In the box with discs, a printed manual, and a printed activation code. The good ol' days. To my surprise and delight I was able to update it to the final version, including to 64bit, no problemos. Working great in Reaper, saweeet!
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:25 PM   #118
sostenuto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Jesus christ, if you don't like the way a company does business, don't use their products.

No-one has a monopoly on music. If you don't want to deal with corporations then buy some second-hand instruments, or better yet build your own, and make music.

This is one of the biggest cases of entitled victimhood hyperbole I've ever read on the internet, and that bar is set very high!

What a mind-blowing thread. Fundamental rights my arse. There are people on this planet who don't have access to water, or know when a bomb might drop from the sky and kill their loved ones, and you feel hard done by? Honestly, get some perspective and get over yourself, then get back to making music.

...or waste your short and precious time on this planet writing snarky letters to the European Commission instead of making music, but whatever you do, do something instead of whining to strangers on the internet.
Amen !!
Some will never comprehend Yin Yang. Time passes, things change and some enjoy /some complain.
I try to respect and tolerate all POV, but very tough to figure how staying somewhere in the past serves much purpose.

When you do not approve of some new policy, man-up and vote with yur wallet.
I'll vote with mine. So be it.

For me …. Profit-motivated commerce is a helluva lot more tolerable than rants about how good the past was.
For others ….. you choose.
So fortunate to be able to tune-out as desired.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:25 PM   #119
karbomusic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamester View Post
Serious side-note question:

How does the user know (or can they know) if a software is "pinging home" as part of its online authorization every time it is being used? Is that common, compared to just needing to connect online once when the software is initially installed?
Typically, on later OS's it can't without you knowing because the firewall will tell you the app is trying to connect to the net and ask your permission to allow it (it is remotely possible the installer while running in admin mode could create a firewall allow rule as part of the install). That said, I don't know of any that check every time it's being used but it's not something I keep up with. Easy check is to go offline and see if it stops working.

There are other methods to check but no need going that far right now as I consider it a non-issue at the moment. And I'm a little lazy for long-winded tutorials at the moment. That said, let's not mop ourselves into a corner because even Reaper phones home every so often during launch to check for updates if you allow it to do so.

Quote:
I have no problem with the latter personally, but I do take issue with software that "checks up on you" every time you use it.
Like I said, I don't know if/which ones do that but it's an easy check, disconnect from the Internet and launch them.

Quote:
I just recently dug out my old copy of Battery 3. In the box with discs, a printed manual, and a printed activation code. The good ol' days. To my surprise and delight I was able to update it to the final version, including to 64bit, no problemos. Working great in Reaper, saweeet!
Nice!
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:30 PM   #120
hopi
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breaking nudes:

NI is meddling in the elections via palware... especially so in Florida and Argentina

amazing how long this has become....
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