Old 01-26-2022, 02:22 PM   #561
Held
Human being with feelings
 
Held's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Yes, just imagine how good it would be if (insert the entire contents of my post).

You should see my custom scripts/actions collection! 99% of it is filling in workflow gaps. That Reaper lets you do this is unreal. That it's necessary is the purpose of my post.
Market research would tell you that most users don't need scripting and that's why no other DAW has it to the extend that REAPER does.

Imagine if REAPER was developed based on market research. You would get another Pro Tools or Logic Pro.
Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:27 PM   #562
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
Market research would tell you that most users don't need scripting and that's why no other DAW has it to the extend that REAPER does.

Imagine if REAPER was developed based on market research. You would get another Pro Tools or Logic Pro.
Held we just gonna keep going tit for tat, or did you find any value in my paragraph at all?

Like are you arguing that putting dedicated time into understanding the needs of users would be a bad thing? Am I reading this correctly? You don't think it'd be beneficial to have some focused data on the user experience?
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:37 PM   #563
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Dunno why comments get so often interpreted with no subtlety. Maybe it's my fault and related to how I speak or something...but I can't imagine how that paragraph suggested "scrap everything, Reaper should have been designed based on market research alone."

Literally saying a bit of that would clearly be beneficial, as evidenced by how successful other DAWs are in their specific lanes. Or nah?
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:42 PM   #564
Held
Human being with feelings
 
Held's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Held we just gonna keep going tit for tat, or did you find any value in my paragraph at all?
No, not really. I don't see how changing the way Justin and Schwa work would lead to a better product. To me, REAPER is the best DAW, so I trust the process that got it this far.

Yes, I also have open feature requests, and I hope they will get implemented, but I'm already very happy with REAPER. I prefer to be appreciative of the features I have rather than wasting my and their energy with complaints.

I would never complain that a feature was added too late. That's just unnecessary negativity and takes energy away from new developments. I'm really happy we have razor edits now, but why keep bringing up that it took a while to add.

Unfortunately, there's no perfect DAW. Depending on the project, I also use Bitwig because it has better MPE-editing tools, but it also lacks a lot of features that REAPER has (pooled items, automation items, area selection, scripting etc).

Life is full of compromises. The earlier you learn to live with that, the more you're going to enjoy your life.

Edit: I missed your edit and next post. So you're saying they should listen to market research when it leads to your preferred features being developed and they should ignore market research also when it leads to your preferred features to be developed? Or should they roll a dice as to when to follow market research and when to ignore it? They already are listening to users. They are just not listening to you. Sucks, I know. But see above.
Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:58 PM   #565
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
Edit: I missed your edit and next post. So you're saying they should listen to market research when it leads to your preferred features being developed and they should ignore market research also when it leads to your preferred features to be developed? Or should they roll a dice as to when to follow market research and when to ignore it? They already are listening to users. They are just not listening to you. Sucks, I know. But see above.
Yup what I meant precisely 100%.

Specifically "a group of diverse creators were chosen to give detailed feedback on what could be improved (across a variety of workflows)" was a euphemism for "me".
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 03:05 PM   #566
Held
Human being with feelings
 
Held's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Yup what I meant precisely 100%.

Specifically "a group of diverse creators were chosen to give detailed feedback on what could be improved (across a variety of workflows)" was a euphemism for "me".
So if those chosen creators would decide that FX containers aren't a priority for REAPER, you'd drop it? I have a hard time believing that.

And what about all the rest I wrote? Why did you interpret my comment without subtlety?

Anyway. This conversation is a waste of time like 99% of this thread. Good luck.
Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 03:09 PM   #567
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
So if those chosen creators would decide that FX containers aren't a priority for REAPER, you'd drop it? I have a hard time believing that.

And what about all the rest I wrote? Why did you interpret my comment without subtlety?

Anyway. This conversation is a waste of time like 99% of this thread. Good luck.
Oh I would of course advocate for it in the FR section we currently inhabit, as of course that's the point of the forum. I just would have less of a leg to stand on.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 03:13 PM   #568
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
No, not really. I don't see how changing the way Justin and Schwa work would lead to a better product. To me, REAPER is the best DAW, so I trust the process that got it this far.

Yes, I also have open feature requests, and I hope they will get implemented, but I'm already very happy with REAPER. I prefer to be appreciative of the features I have rather than wasting my and their energy with complaints.

I would never complain that a feature was added too late. That's just unnecessary negativity and takes energy away from new developments. I'm really happy we have razor edits now, but why keep bringing up that it took a while to add.

Unfortunately, there's no perfect DAW. Depending on the project, I also use Bitwig because it has better MPE-editing tools, but it also lacks a lot of features that REAPER has (pooled items, automation items, area selection, scripting etc).

Life is full of compromises. The earlier you learn to live with that, the more you're going to enjoy your life.

Edit: I missed your edit and next post. So you're saying they should listen to market research when it leads to your preferred features being developed and they should ignore market research also when it leads to your preferred features to be developed? Or should they roll a dice as to when to follow market research and when to ignore it? They already are listening to users. They are just not listening to you. Sucks, I know. But see above.
Bringing up Razor Edits isn't a complaint, it's a suggestion/illustration that probably some structured guidance would have lead to them being implemented 15 years ago. Fifteen. Years. These are the things that structured feedback do not allow to fall between the cracks.

Thanks for the life advice on compromises.

Love Reaper, as it is my DAW since 2008. We agree on lots.

Yup 99% of the thread is useless especially when it spins off into unnecessary semantic squabbles when it should be pretty obvious the point that's trying to be made. Thought a lot of the illustrations (including my own, including yours) of the benefits of FX Containers were great however!

Last edited by ferropop; 01-26-2022 at 03:30 PM.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 06:21 PM   #569
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post

Just my observation: literally all of Reaper's "drawbacks" stem from it not being sufficiently geared/optimized towards creators.

The "big name" DAWs all have done insane amounts of market research, in-field testing, surveys, UI usability refinement with a focus on workflow, etc etc etc.

They all have DAW-specific content curated to play into their strengths, and they all have some specific "creator-driven" element that sets them apart. Ableton's racks, Cubase's TON of custom content, FL Studio's entire ethos, Studio One's totally streamlined Melodyne/Vocalign integration, etc.

Most would argue this is Reaper's strength - it's light-weight and clean. Couldn't agree more. The price that we pay for this however is that it'll most likely never attract creators in the same way as the other DAWs, and as an offshoot - the workflow will never fully reach its potential in that area.

Just my opinion, but if a group of diverse creators were chosen to give detailed feedback on what could be improved (across a variety of workflows) you would see this gap close very quickly and REAPER would shine FAR above everything, given that it truly is the greatest DAW of all time.
Is the marketing meeting over? I was told I wouldn't have to sit thru these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post

I don't see how changing the way Justin and Schwa work would lead to a better product. To me, REAPER is the best DAW, so I trust the process that got it this far.

Yes, I also have open feature requests, and I hope they will get implemented, but I'm already very happy with REAPER. I prefer to be appreciative of the features I have rather than wasting my and their energy with complaints.

I would never complain that a feature was added too late. That's just unnecessary negativity and takes energy away from new developments. I'm really happy we have razor edits now, but why keep bringing up that it took a while to add.

Unfortunately, there's no perfect DAW.

Life is full of compromises. The earlier you learn to live with that, the more you're going to enjoy your life.
+1

Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 01-26-2022 at 06:26 PM.
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 07:04 PM   #570
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 07:09 PM   #571
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Made a cool "OTT" preset in Waves Studio Rack. Sharing to show the nested multiband/parallel thing that would be great inspiration for the devs if they decide to make FX Containers.


ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 03:24 AM   #572
White Tie
Pixel Pusher
 
White Tie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
Default

The 'the hardcore user steering group' (or whatever) gets brought up from time to time, presumably with the assumption you'd be in it. Well try this for a thought experiment: perhaps it already exists. And you're not in it, and those who are don't care about the things you do. Feel better now? Feel better represented? Not really, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Bringing up Razor Edits isn't a complaint, it's a suggestion/illustration that probably some structured guidance would have lead to them being implemented 15 years ago. Fifteen. Years.
If you make things up with such alacrity, their gravitas merely comes from the boldness of your fabrication. OMG. This thing. I just theory crafted. With no evidence. If it happened. Would be huge.

OK, but it didn't so it isn't.

I was here 15 years ago. I was here for Razor Edits. FWIW I was someone who most certainly had their mind changed about area selection, and that was solely because one person took the time to explain what they wanted in a way that resonated with me, and didn't rely on me knowing minutae of PT. Not anyone bumping, +1ing or (FFS) spamming pre threads. And that's me using myself as a barometer, in practice you often need to be even more persuasive. And persuasive doesn't mean popular or noisy.

Features and feature requests are being actioned at a remarkable rate and with unprecedented input from the user base. If you don't believe either of those two statements, you're not going to be a good fit with this project. If you do believe them, then realise that what you are asking for is for the features you care about to be prioritised over the features that other people care about. You may believe you are wiser, or your request is more important/expected/standard, or whatever. But we have had a clear answer on that, and its no, and we all need to take that answer with good grace.

Please understand that nether you nor I get to decide how this happens. I'm just illuminating to you, and those reading, with the realities as I see them; I've made a lot of FRs.
__________________
The House of White Tie
White Tie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 03:31 AM   #573
White Tie
Pixel Pusher
 
White Tie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
99% of the thread is useless especially when it spins off into unnecessary semantic squabbles
Remember : this FR broke out of this thread. And that's why there's all this meta conversation.

I don't care about this feature request. I am trying to help you understand the way things work here, in the assumption that you do actually want to be effective. I hope you do not characterise that as 'squabbles' because allow me to be very, very clear: Don't care about your FR, just trying to help. If you'd rather I didn't bother, try to recognise that you would be asking to be less informed. Is that really what you want?
__________________
The House of White Tie
White Tie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:33 AM   #574
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Remember : this FR broke out of this thread. And that's why there's all this meta conversation.

I don't care about this feature request. I am trying to help you understand the way things work here, in the assumption that you do actually want to be effective. I hope you do not characterise that as 'squabbles' because allow me to be very, very clear: Don't care about your FR, just trying to help. If you'd rather I didn't bother, try to recognise that you would be asking to be less informed. Is that really what you want?
This was me directly responding to this :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post

Anyway. This conversation is a waste of time like 99% of this thread. Good luck.

So the out of context cherry picking, again and as always, is disappointing.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:48 AM   #575
White Tie
Pixel Pusher
 
White Tie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
Default

Calm down. If I see something I can help you with, I will help you with that. The context is "I can help with that" and the cherry picking of the "that" is "that is the thing I can help you with". Would you really rather I didn't help?
__________________
The House of White Tie
White Tie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:57 AM   #576
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The 'the hardcore user steering group' (or whatever) gets brought up from time to time, presumably with the assumption you'd be in it. Well try this for a thought experiment: perhaps it already exists. And you're not in it, and those who are don't care about the things you do. Feel better now? Feel better represented? Not really, right?
Is this an example of theory crafting?

If this is more than just "bold alacriousness", then the "steering group" is not diverse enough given the number of core features that exist in every_other_daw without a "Reaper-unique" solution. Almost like if you have a city council committee made up of only suburbanites, they probably won't prioritize fixing the inner-city roads. They won't even know to think about it. [[[edit: I can already see the strawman cherry picking of "how dare you assume the steering group is made of suburbanites" with some kind of faux outrage. It's an example, I'm not likening this supposed in-group to being suburban lol.]]]


Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
I was here 15 years ago. I was here for Razor Edits. FWIW I was someone who most certainly had their mind changed about area selection, and that was solely because one person took the time to explain what they wanted in a way that resonated with me, and didn't rely on me knowing minutae of PT. Not anyone bumping, +1ing or (FFS) spamming pre threads. And that's me using myself as a barometer, in practice you often need to be even more persuasive. And persuasive doesn't mean popular or noisy.
Not sure what you're going on about here, this thread is FULL of clear, concise, tactful user-submitted demonstrations of the FR. I certainly didn't spam the forum with +1s lol so don't direct this at me. I did however just post another example of FX Containers done well, specifically showing the nesting feature of Waves Studio Rack. Even shared a nice preset in the process! Lots of good stuff here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Features and feature requests are being actioned at a remarkable rate and with unprecedented input from the user base. If you don't believe either of those two statements, you're not going to be a good fit with this project. If you do believe them, then realise that what you are asking for is for the features you care about to be prioritised over the features that other people care about. You may believe you are wiser, or your request is more important/expected/standard, or whatever. But we have had a clear answer on that, and its no, and we all need to take that answer with good grace.
I'll say it again, the fact that 2 guys created Reaper and it is easily the best DAW on the market, is an unimaginable feat. It does not come without its caveats, and it's ok (and necessary) to talk about them. This is a forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Please understand that nether you nor I get to decide how this happens. I'm just illuminating to you, and those reading, with the realities as I see them; I've made a lot of FRs.
Totally true! I can still believe that it'd probably be better for everyone if a diverse group of individuals gave their input on workflow in a structured way.

...also this is presumptuous and frankly kind of gross:

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The 'the hardcore user steering group' (or whatever) gets brought up from time to time, presumably with the assumption you'd be in it.

Last edited by ferropop; 01-27-2022 at 08:10 AM.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:00 AM   #577
UknownSource
Human being with feelings
 
UknownSource's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 434
Default

what you can do with flstudio patcher + its control surface

all controls in one window.
very very busy fx chain with lots of parallel routings and parameters links and modulations behind this control surface. all in one single easy to use rack / track.

__________________
"FX-Container"
UknownSource is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:05 AM   #578
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UknownSource View Post
what you can do with flstudio patcher + its control surface

all controls in one window.
very very busy fx chain with lots of parallel routings and parameters links and modulations behind this control surface. all in one single easy to use rack / track.
Super cool, very Reaper-like actually. Imagine the incredible presets this dedicated community would create.

Last edited by ferropop; 01-27-2022 at 08:11 AM.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:16 AM   #579
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Calm down. If I see something I can help you with, I will help you with that. The context is "I can help with that" and the cherry picking of the "that" is "that is the thing I can help you with". Would you really rather I didn't help?
Cruising at a cool caffeinated island pace!

Held said the thread was 99% useless and I +1'd that sentiment, specifically with regard to when it spins out into misunderstood mischaracterized outrage. So, was setting the record straight that you should be responding to Held also in your context.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:32 AM   #580
White Tie
Pixel Pusher
 
White Tie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,950
Default

I'm really sorry if I upset you that's not my intention. Perhaps I can express it more directly; consider these two positions...
  1. The developers are not developing enough features.
  2. The developers are developing the wrong features.

...if you believe either one of these, they've been asked many times and the answer is no : neither are up to you or me. All we can do is make our case, make it well, and make it once.
__________________
The House of White Tie
White Tie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:35 AM   #581
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Here's an example of how this conversation might go!

FR : FX Containers

[Country artist] : "I really don't see how this would be useful to me"

[Film Composer] : oh_my_heavens, instead of creating 30 channels with weird routing and pin configurations, I could finally do creative sound design and remain in a creative headspace and not in "did I accidentally unpin channels 7/8 from my second sidechain?" hell.

[Rock mixer] : I can do all of this with Waves Studio Rack already

[Pop Producer] : Wowwwwwwww this would add some incredible creative tools to my arsenal. I've always wanted to wow-and-flutter a reverbed delay that's sidechained to the kick, and dynamically EQ it before the processing

[EDM Producer] : One step closer to Ableton's streamlined workflow!

[Hip Hop Producer] : I can ditch FL Studio forever!

[Indie Artist] : this wouldn't do much for me

...etc.

The fact that I came up with this myself and it's measured and balanced, should hopefully show I'm not "pet-FRing" for the sake of pet-FRing.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 08:39 AM   #582
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
I'm really sorry if I upset you that's not my intention. Perhaps I can express it more directly; consider these two positions...
  1. The developers are not developing enough features.
  2. The developers are developing the wrong features.

...if you believe either one of these, they've been asked many times and the answer is no : neither are up to you or me. All we can do is make our case, make it well, and make it once.
No sweat, apologies if I get defensive or colourful - feels like I'm fighting 10 people at once lol. Just trying to make a case, and putting in the time to provide examples and explanations and illustrations, hope that's not getting lost here.
Just want Reaper to be its best self, like everyone.

And agreed across the board. One thing I noticed about forum posting/responding is that a person could agree 90% with what the other person says, but because only the 10% disagreement is outwardly acknowledged it's easy to feel like you're pointed perpendicular when you're actually parallel at slightly different angles.

Gonna try harder to say "hey I agree with almost everything here. this is what I disagree with....". Probably healthier.

Last edited by ferropop; 01-27-2022 at 08:52 AM.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 12:39 PM   #583
operator
Human being with feelings
 
operator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
Default

RIP FX-Container-Thread. There you go down the...

I wouldn´t ask one person to read through this thread to pick all the important informations out. Heck even to me it became too much to dig through this nonsense.

From my perspective: I sat here hours in front of the keyboard (since site 1) to try to verbalize how and why I think this "workflow enhancing concept" could improve Reaper and how it could benefit many users. I monitored the Thread to keep it positive and active. When there were no posts for days/weeks, I sat down and thought about what I could write without repeating myself over and over. (sry happened sometimes anyway) But I went into reflect mode and thought about how I am using this feature in other software and where I am using workarounds, which could be solved by an FX-Folder/-Container. An then I tried to verbalize/illustrate it.
And also, if users came into the Thread and made a pessimistic statement or misbehaved, I tried to correct/highlight the benefits to keep this FR-Thread Pro FX-Container.

Seeing this now, site for site just bickering and senseless argumentation between parties, but no single proposition of a solution. #justSAD



Of course I understand both parties, the "FX-Container-Army" and also the "Officials/Devs" side. Who wouldn`t/couldn´t understand... it is just so natural.

COME ON PEOPLE, we all chose to be part at/with/in/for Reaper.. and we all can probably remember the single moment that led us to move towards Reaper. We saw an essence, a vision, a flow, a community and it is for that we chose to spend hours in here to make it better and easier for the "visionairs" to develope this masterpiece further. BUT we shouldn´t forget, that just because of our choice to take part in this journey (the developers journey), we aren´t granted/allowed to take over the steering. (damn we don´t have the drivers license for that) We are not the minds that have the COMPLETE vision of Reaper in our heads... we have our own visions and there Reaper only takes part. AND believe me it is of most importance to harbor the whole vision to make valuable discussions for such a complex thing like Reaper it is. AND believe me, if you were allowed to be "Reaper Major" for a day, you would burn down the "city" faster as you could say "I am Dev now".
Have trust in the "real" Devs, and their vision. You will see it will be for its best. Reaper only will be able to reach it´s full potential day for day, when the Devs can realize THEIR own vision on THEIR own paste.
Lets all be thankful to be included in the way we are... COULD BE MUCH WORSE... look at other DAWs.


SO PLEASE CAN WE JUST GET BACK TO A FRUITFUL DISCUSSION, RATHER THAN THROWING OUR FECES AT EACH OTHER. The foxes have left the chicken-coop ---> you can all get back on your poles to press out some tracks.
This discussion as it is at the moment, doesn´t help to further the development of Reaper. Let´s try to get back to that...

Last edited by operator; 01-27-2022 at 01:10 PM.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 01:51 PM   #584
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
RIP FX-Container-Thread. There you go down the...

I wouldn´t ask one person to read through this thread to pick all the important informations out. Heck even to me it became too much to dig through this nonsense.

From my perspective: I sat here hours in front of the keyboard (since site 1) to try to verbalize how and why I think this "workflow enhancing concept" could improve Reaper and how it could benefit many users. I monitored the Thread to keep it positive and active. When there were no posts for days/weeks, I sat down and thought about what I could write without repeating myself over and over. (sry happened sometimes anyway) But I went into reflect mode and thought about how I am using this feature in other software and where I am using workarounds, which could be solved by an FX-Folder/-Container. An then I tried to verbalize/illustrate it.
And also, if users came into the Thread and made a pessimistic statement or misbehaved, I tried to correct/highlight the benefits to keep this FR-Thread Pro FX-Container.

Seeing this now, site for site just bickering and senseless argumentation between parties, but no single proposition of a solution. #justSAD



Of course I understand both parties, the "FX-Container-Army" and also the "Officials/Devs" side. Who wouldn`t/couldn´t understand... it is just so natural.

COME ON PEOPLE, we all chose to be part at/with/in/for Reaper.. and we all can probably remember the single moment that led us to move towards Reaper. We saw an essence, a vision, a flow, a community and it is for that we chose to spend hours in here to make it better and easier for the "visionairs" to develope this masterpiece further. BUT we shouldn´t forget, that just because of our choice to take part in this journey (the developers journey), we aren´t granted/allowed to take over the steering. (damn we don´t have the drivers license for that) We are not the minds that have the COMPLETE vision of Reaper in our heads... we have our own visions and there Reaper only takes part. AND believe me it is of most importance to harbor the whole vision to make valuable discussions for such a complex thing like Reaper it is. AND believe me, if you were allowed to be "Reaper Major" for a day, you would burn down the "city" faster as you could say "I am Dev now".
Have trust in the "real" Devs, and their vision. You will see it will be for its best. Reaper only will be able to reach it´s full potential day for day, when the Devs can realize THEIR own vision on THEIR own paste.
Lets all be thankful to be included in the way we are... COULD BE MUCH WORSE... look at other DAWs.


SO PLEASE CAN WE JUST GET BACK TO A FRUITFUL DISCUSSION, RATHER THAN THROWING OUR FECES AT EACH OTHER. The foxes have left the chicken-coop ---> you can all get back on your poles to press out some tracks.
This discussion as it is at the moment, doesn´t help to further the development of Reaper. Let´s try to get back to that...
Lots of useful images and discussion in the thread from lots of people thinking carefully about it operator. The pictures grab more attention than paragraphs anyways. But yes of course agree with you.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 02:14 PM   #585
Reflected
Human being with feelings
 
Reflected's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UknownSource View Post
what you can do with flstudio patcher + its control surface

all controls in one window.
very very busy fx chain with lots of parallel routings and parameters links and modulations behind this control surface. all in one single easy to use rack / track.

Amazing.
Reflected is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 01:47 AM   #586
AZpercussion
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Moscow / Tbilisi
Posts: 909
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UknownSource View Post
what you can do with flstudio patcher + its control surface

all controls in one window.
very very busy fx chain with lots of parallel routings and parameters links and modulations behind this control surface. all in one single easy to use rack / track.

<Picture>
Need to say, I noticed the devs don't like examples from other daws, cause it difficult to figure out the example if you don't know the daw.
And here it is. I want fx container too, but this picture doesn't give me anything, just I did not try FL ever.
I can't understand the structure with this picture.
AZpercussion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 02:12 AM   #587
Vagelis
Human being with feelings
 
Vagelis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,797
Default

I respect everyone here, but what i see lately and feel is that Cockos should make a realtime chat. And lets be honest, it's not very nice to cover up other feature requests just to make a long talk in the same thread that doesn't give back info to the devs regarding the request. Before anyone chime in and speak bad, it's just my humble opinion and i say this in a very friendly way.

Last edited by Vagelis; 01-28-2022 at 08:02 AM.
Vagelis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 10:49 AM   #588
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UknownSource View Post
what you can do with flstudio patcher + its control surface

all controls in one window.
very very busy fx chain with lots of parallel routings and parameters links and modulations behind this control surface. all in one single easy to use rack / track.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But what's to stop someone from just making this a plugin? Why does REAPER need to be involved to create this?

Personally, I would love if you could put all of the REAPER plugins in one window but it's not like there aren't similar plugins out there that could do the same thing.

And couldn't you also just create this as an interface that controls all of the parameters in other REAPER plugins? So imagine this was the first FX in the chain and you had 6 or more others but this controlled all of them in one interface? So that you wouldn't need to adjust the other plugins in the chain one by one. You could do it all from here?
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 11:07 AM   #589
operator
Human being with feelings
 
operator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Lots of useful images and discussion in the thread from lots of people thinking carefully about it operator. The pictures grab more attention than paragraphs anyways. But yes of course agree with you.
I hope you didn´t mis-interpret my last post. Of course I didn´t meant that I was the sole reason for the activeness in this thread (that would be crazy ) There were quite a lot of people, including you, that helped to keep this alive , thx for that.

But that wasn´t what I´ve meant when I wrote "From my prespective"... which JUST was describing what the action from my side were and how i feel about the development of this thread.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 12:20 PM   #590
operator
Human being with feelings
 
operator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong....

I would say this is an extreme example and should only be seen as --> "look how powerful this could become, and what it would open up if one pushes it to its extremes". Practical use-cases of "Macro Controls" often look less imposing.
In this picture there are many, not only one concept highlighted and I think the OP of this mockup thought, he/she posts such saturated information to communicate ALL the benefits in one picture with this cumulative tool.

For something complex like this I would also rather turn to something like Melda MXXX or a similar tools --> especially when I would need to create a specific tool that I could re-use in the future projects.

But FX-Container/Folder is also more a workflow related tool and makes it easier to understand the sheer amount of synthesizers, samplers and FX in a song of 150+ tracks and MANY layered sounds/instruments per Channel in a project.
Don´t take me the wrong way, but could it be that you come from a different background of music production and never had the need for more tidiness (folders) in this FX-Chain area? Sorry if I am wrong, I am just wondering...

For a modern and "self-reliant"(-->no 3rd party presets or samples) electronic dance music production the project can get unbelievable complex. Because there are often all stages involved during the sound creation 1.)sketch, 2.)design/synthesize, 3.)sound-specific FX, 4.)arrange, 5.)sound refinement 6.)track specific FX, 7.)mixing and 8.)re-iterate when new sounds join the song. And for this re-iterating design-loop the FX-Container gets UNBELIEVABLE HELPFULL because it allows to mannage and adapt the sound more dynamically to the "environment" e.g. with macro controls (IF we get them included in FX-Container). Especially if you need to fine-tune many different sounds in the project to each other! And don´t get me wrong there still is a dedicated Mixing stage involved later on--> but most happens in this re-iteration/design-loop where one not only balances out the volume but also the movement, development and timbre of the sound.

And getting quick access to customized parameter (which let you control more than one parameter) can be crucial to keep creativity going. And also at that point one already defined the variables/"changing parameters" during the sounddesign stage while playing with the sound and now just needs a quick access to those variables during the arrange stage. e.g. creating one Macro to move the sound in the virtual space backwards or let it wander into the distance (verb, proximity, dampening, panning,etc). Suddenly it feels like one is playing the room like an instrument and therefore can make better judgements and also it removes cognitive load so creativity can take over.

Ableton Racks are very illustrative when trying to understand this concept. (I am a bigger fan of Bitwig`s Containers btw.)

Last edited by operator; 01-28-2022 at 01:06 PM.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 12:49 PM   #591
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Don´t take me the wrong way, but could it be that you come from a different background of music production and never had the need for more tidiness (folders) in this FX-Chain area? Sorry if I am wrong, I am just wondering...
Not taking it the wrong way at all. I come from a background of using Digital Performer to Logic to Pro Tools to REAPER. And quite a lot of Reason with Pro Tools for production.

So my background is only those tools that I use or used. But I'm completely open to different ways of working that I've never tried.
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 12:53 PM   #592
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
I respect everyone here, but what i see lately and feel is that Cockos should make a realtime chat.
If that's what works for the dev team then let's trust that they're smart enough to figure that out on their own.

And to save everyone some time, let's stop discussing how feature requests should work here in this thread. This thread has it's own purpose and this side discussion has been discussed enough.

If you don't see what White Tie and I were trying to express, you never will. And that's OK but at this point, it's just discussion for discussions sake. No progress will be made.

Let's move on. Thanks.
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 01:20 PM   #593
Held
Human being with feelings
 
Held's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong. But what's to stop someone from just making this a plugin? Why does REAPER need to be involved to create this?
The main advantage I see is that you can build your own custom FX chains with modulators/macros that influence multiple parameters across plugins at once. If you want to be fancy, you can create a custom GUI for them. It's much better than coding an entirely new plugin, or hoping that some developer out there will have the same idea and do it for you. So the DAW would be involved to manage macros/modulation across different plugins. Macros are convenient because they allow you to automate multiple parameters at the same time.

It's also useful if you want do to parallel processing on a single track. Let's say you want to process your signal in three bands, so you split it and route it to three new tracks. Afterwards you want to combine it, but do separate Mid/Side processing. Then you need another two tracks for that. This can quickly add up.

There are VSTs that can do these kind of things, albeit rarely with third-party VST support because, apparently, it's really hard to host VSTs in a stable way.

Unfortunately, I don't see a really clean way to implement containers in REAPER. The best way I can think of is to visualize the internal track routing in the Track Wiring Diagram better and adding some macro controls.

Personally, I'm happy with MXXX for fancy processing, and people should just use that in my opinion. Or if I want to go completely crazy, I use Bitwig because it has an amazing modulation system. But I'm also not opposed to having this added at some point as long as it's done well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
And couldn't you also just create this as an interface that controls all of the parameters in other REAPER plugins?
That is already possible? Do you have a video?

Last edited by Held; 01-28-2022 at 01:44 PM.
Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 02:09 PM   #594
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

The blessed mpl created his "mpl mapping panel" that implements the Macro portion of this FR. ie, you can wiggle knobs, assign them to the mapping panel, and then control them all together with a single knob. Unreal. It's of course hackish because it's not native...it has to add Master/Slave plugins all over the place and operates project-wide instead of track-wide...but mpl crushed it.

It's the parallel/multiband stuff that would complete the FR.

A "build your own GUI" thing in the mapping panel (like FL Studio has) would be total icing, but not functionally necessary.

Encouraging to see a big component of the FR exists as a script.
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 02:29 PM   #595
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post

That is already possible? Do you have a video?
You can link any parameter from one FX to another parameter on another FX on the same track. No?
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 03:15 PM   #596
Held
Human being with feelings
 
Held's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
You can link any parameter from one FX to another parameter on another FX on the same track. No?
And then link that one to another one too? I think I tried that a while back but couldn't figure it out. I never found parameter linking very comfortable to use, to be honest.

Compare this to Bitwig in this 40s video.



But again, I don't really see how this could be replicated in REAPER without the fixed FX bar (which has its own set of disadvantages).
Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 09:31 PM   #597
deeb
Human being with feelings
 
deeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
Default

IMO the way is a new panel: like cubase edit info panel: just the focused track appears in this panel, all the modulations , sends and fx racks. I think it could be even done with lua like the theme viewer, but better graphics for sure would be welcome tho.
__________________
🙏🏻
deeb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2022, 03:29 AM   #598
operator
Human being with feelings
 
operator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
Default

One thing I must admit, I love the "Track Controls" in the TCP in Reaper. They are so practical. Would love to see them evolve in "Macro Controls" one day.

But lets be honest, FX-Container/Folder AND Macro Controls are both long wished FRs here in the forum. And to see them happen at the same time.... mhhhmm. i am not sure. would be great tho...

Last edited by operator; 01-29-2022 at 03:47 AM.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2022, 04:16 AM   #599
operator
Human being with feelings
 
operator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
[...]
THX for the video.

I would also like to bring the XY-Container from Bitwig into play. Because that additionally opens up a new dimenision, literallly. ... With this XY-Container I created the example I talked about earlier: An artificial room where the XY-pad is like a floor-plan and you can position the sound in / or move it through the virtual space (along on that XY plane aka. stage). Cute little mixing tool... a "virutal stage", and that just by addressing common track parameters (and 2 VSTs) and bringing them into context with a visual XY matrix --> so much more understandable for the creative brain during heavy load.

And from the workflow aspect it doesn´t add much load either, just one click more to change to the other macro-knob (from x to y). Bitwig is just miles ahead in this "container and macro" area... but every program has it´s strengths and that is just not enough for me to leave Reaper. Reaper is so incredible good in many other areas so i would never be able to leave it ever again (I think)... and if we never get this FR, I still would stick with Reaper. But I will always try to convince, because I saw/wittnessed the benefits the Bitwig system is able to provide for years now... Had it from day one and was Customer Nr.31 (and that only because I downloaded/installed the demo first, before I bought it minutes later).

Please, we need to tame the complexity. Please, we need FX-Container/Folder.

Last edited by operator; 01-29-2022 at 06:33 AM.
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2022, 11:10 PM   #600
UknownSource
Human being with feelings
 
UknownSource's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 434
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Held View Post
And then link that one to another one too? I think I tried that a while back but couldn't figure it out. I never found parameter linking very comfortable to use, to be honest.

Compare this to Bitwig in this 40s video.



But again, I don't really see how this could be replicated in REAPER without the fixed FX bar (which has its own set of disadvantages).
touch learning parameters is great.
__________________
"FX-Container"
UknownSource is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.