controlling input level for recording

[nalooti]

Hi,

I'm very surprised that "the only way" I can control the input level of my E.guitar for recording is through the volume knob in my guitar. And I'm surprised I didn't know it, yet I managed to record guitar somehow (?) so to not clip even if sometimes I was recording hot.

So, I need you confirm it to me and also to tell me why all other intermediary knobs and faders in the path doesn't do anything. What are there for so ?

I mean, from my guitar until the Reaper interface I have in order:
- guitar volume knob (the only control that changes the recording level as seen in the track's meter)
- hardware knob on my Line 6 sound interface labeled output level
Then in my POD Farm software interface of my Line 6 I have a number of knobs and faders in its mixer view labeled in or out level
And finally the fader volume of my guitar track.

I knew that this latter fader doesn't do anything in recording but I though the others do matter but all they do is just changing the volume of the guitar track I'm "hearing" but not the recording level as shown in the track's meter

Is the only way to control the guitar input, the guitar volume knob or am I doing something wrong ?

Another question:
Is it normal that when recording guitar (or vocals) I have to raise the track's volume fader so I can better hear what I am playing/singing, but then when mixing, I have usually to lower that fader for a better mix ?
Is it also your case ?
Why the "right" level when playing and recording is often "too high" when mixing ?

thanks

[Sound-Guy]

Hi nalooti,

I'm also surprised that the Line 6 interface doesn't have an input gain control - I use a Focusrite Pro 24 to record vocals and guitar (and blues harp) quite often, and the two front XLR/TRS inputs have separate input level controls on the front panel, as well as Line/Instrument switches. In fact, the first time I recorded an Elec Guitar (I don't play guitar myself and had a friend play session musician for me) I forgot to switch the input to "Instrument" and Mark had to turn up his level control on the guitar all the way. We still got good results although the recorded signal level was low. When I realized during the second session a few weeks later that I had the input set to "Line" impedance, I forgot to turn down the headphone levels and switched the input to "Instrument" as Mark was playing a chord! Almost blew our brains out!

As for recording volume levels, I use the (hardware) headphone level controls on the Pro 24 to get the signal up to a good listening level, but need to vary track levels when playing back or mixing. When mixing, if you have several tracks (I've mixed with as many as 96 tracks) you need to reduce individual tracks so you don't overload the Master track since sound levels "add up". For example, if you have 6 tracks all running at -3 dB rms, the combination will be +4.8 dB rms and peaks could exceed +24 dB (this is mathematically estimated and assumes all tracks playing at the same level, which isn't actually the case with most music!)

I default to REAPER tracks to -12 dB when I open a new project and usually need to turn some down further, and maybe raise a few, for a final mix. I just mixed a project with 32 tracks, and at the end some faders were set as low as -28 dB, others as high as +2 dB to get a good instrument and vocal balance.

I did find comments on other forums, including:

"Interfaces alone are not intended to give you a higher input than your stock sound card. This is a function of the software that it uses.

You can launch the POD Farm software, go into the Mixer section, and enable the +18 dB button on the Record Sends that feed the recording program. You can then close POD Farm (if you do not want to use it) and the signal will be boosted by 18 dB."

Don't know if this helps, but I am also surprised there is no input gain control on your "Pod" - seems like a serious omission in the design, but of course it's more an FX pedal than computer i/o.

Anyway, hope you can get things adjusted to your liking.

[nalooti]

Thanks very much for telling me your experience

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

Hi nalooti,

I'm also surprised that the Line 6 interface doesn't have an input gain control - I use a Focusrite Pro 24 to record vocals and guitar (and blues harp) quite often, and the two front XLR/TRS inputs have separate input level controls on the front panel, as well as Line/Instrument switches.

My Lin6 also has 2 XLR input for mic with dedicated level knobs. Here I can reduce or augment the gain as I want but I confirm the only place I can control the input level of my guitar is my guitar volume knob. Unfortunately this is not ideal as I'm used to change this knob often whereas this level should not be changed once it is right.
Fortunately, I'm on Instrument and often I have to reduce the volume so I have no problem with weak levels from my guitar.

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

As for recording volume levels, I use the (hardware) headphone level controls on the Pro 24 to get the signal up to a good listening level, but need to vary track levels when playing back or mixing.

This is exactly what happens for my second question. The 'right' listening volume (so I can hear my instrument as well as others)for playing and recording is just too high when I listen again (after playing) to mix. Why ?

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

When mixing, if you have several tracks (I've mixed with as many as 96 tracks) you need to reduce individual tracks so you don't overload the Master track since sound levels "add up". For example, if you have 6 tracks all running at -3 dB rms, the combination will be +4.8 dB rms and peaks could exceed +24 dB (this is mathematically estimated and assumes all tracks playing at the same level, which isn't actually the case with most music!)

I'm aware of this addition of levels. Has it something to do with the above (different recording vs mixing levels) ?

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

I default to REAPER tracks to -12 dB when I open a new project and usually need to turn some down further, and maybe raise a few, for a final mix. I just mixed a project with 32 tracks, and at the end some faders were set as low as -28 dB, others as high as +2 dB to get a good instrument and vocal balance.

It's very confusing when people talk about db levels. I never know if they talk about the fader or what is seen in the track "meter". Obviously you're talking about the fader (but recently someone talked about the meter in suggesting to never to go above -20 db). Yet, I hope you agree with me that the level of the fader is not at all important with the recording level and doesn't impact it at all (easy to see by changing it). As I said my only point of control in my recording level is my guitar knob!

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

I did find comments on other forums, including:

"Interfaces alone are not intended to give you a higher input than your stock sound card. This is a function of the software that it uses.

You can launch the POD Farm software, go into the Mixer section, and enable the +18 dB button on the Record Sends that feed the recording program. You can then close POD Farm (if you do not want to use it) and the signal will be boosted by 18 dB."

Maybe they are correct but my problem isn't because I haven't enough gain/level from my guitar. It's just because I wanted to set a level on some knob/fader somewhere in the interface or in hardware and leave it always on that. The reason is that this way when tracking, different takes will not have different levels which would make hard to edit them together.
Now if do a take the next day or the next week, I'd never know where did I put my guitar volume knob for the previous takes so I could put it again to the same level. The result is that the new take will have lower or higher level with previous ones and continuing this process will give you too many different levels to deal with when cutting/joining takes.

[Sound-Guy]

Hello nalooti,

The Focusrite interfaces have combo inputs that accept XLR or TRS, and have an "Instrument" switch to increase the input impedance for instruments. This is a good design choice since only one "pot" is needed to adjust levels for mic, line or instrument. I don't know what your Line6 input configuration is - sounds like it may have a separate input jack for guitar, rather than using a combo jack? That could be a cost-saving approach to the design, which would require leaving out another volume control since that would cost even more.

As for listening levels during recording and playback, if you are using the Master output and have enabled input monitoring on the record-track, the fader on the input track WILL change the level in your headphones, but not the record level on that track. If you record a single track, stop and save it, then play it back, the level through the headphones will be identical to what it was when you recorded (if you are using input monitoring during record and playing the same track back).

But if you are routing the output somehow through the Line6, then the overall gain structure is the key. Gain structure is the total chain of gains/levels from source (guitar or mic) through your interface to the Master section and then in your interface output section. I don't know exactly what signal path you have through REAPER, or how your interface (Line6) routes signals, but there are a multitude of ways signals can go. And if you are not careful, signals can get to the Master output more than one way and create a boost right in REAPER.

When I track with a guest guitarist I use one of several set-ups depending on whether he/she wants to hear FX from my DAW while tracking, or if they want a direct "latency-free" signal routed strictly in the Pro 24 interface. One problem with FX plug-ins is the more complex "cabinet" ones (like Guitar Rig) add a lot of latency that can really bother the player, so often I just have them listen to their guitar directly or use their own FX pedal if it's really critical to their sound and playing technique (I use the zero latency mode of the Pro 24 in this case). I still like to a record direct signal, and often use two tracks to record both DI and post FX-pedal. Then I can add my own FX in editing if we want something different.

So, I can't really say what in your set-up is causing the difference in record/monitor levels since I don't know the Line6 signal routing or how you are routing audio in REAPER.

There is a way in REAPER to get an additional gain stage with fader control (to lower or raise the recorded signal). Say you are using Track 1 for your input: click the i/o button of track 1 and set up a "Send" to track 2 (or any free track). Then click the i/o button of track 2 and Uncheck the Master/parent send box. Now click the track 2 record source button (just right of the input monitor button on the track view, below the fader) and in the drop-down window go down to Record output and choose one of the selections, Record output (mono) being the sensible one for guitar. Click the Record Monitoring button on track 1 (the left-most button under the track fader) but don't turn on the Record Monitoring on track 2 since you would be sending the same signal to monitor from both tracks. Arm BOTH tracks 1 & 2, and you should hear the input in your monitor (phones). If you drop the track 1 fader your monitor level will drop, but track 1's record level will not change. However, the record level on track 2 WILL change. Likewise, changing the fader on track 2 will change its record level (but NOT change the monitor level in the headphones). Pretty slick!

When people talk of dB, they should indicate if they mean measured level on a meter or setting level on a fader. The dB measure is used for both, but sometimes people assume you know they mean "set -20 dB on the fader" when they don't clearly state that. As I said, I default all my track faders to -12 dB for a new project, and I watch the Master level meter to be sure it's staying at least 6-10 dB below zero so I don't clip the signal. With 24 bit audio you can safely record with maximum peak levels of -10 to -20 dB (on the meter) and still get all the signal-to-noise range you need.

Anyway, hope this helps. REAPER is almost infinitely flexible, so there is always a way to set up any kind of control and signal routing you want. Be sure to set up a "clean" version and then click File/Project templates/Save project as a template - so you don't need to set all that up every time!

[Sound-Guy]

I tell my guitarists to just turn up their level control to FULL, so the signal I get is maximum, and there is never a question of how high it was set. If you save a project and come back a month later, the REAPER faders will be where you left them, and the guitar signal will match the previous takes.

[nalooti]

Hi Sound-Guy,

Thank you again for your help and time.

I should say I wanted so long to have such explanations on how the signal is routed and how it affects levels.
Yet I have to read again and experiment what you say in your above post ^^^

Now regarding below I have a remark

Originally Posted by Sound-Guy

I tell my guitarists to just turn up their level control to FULL, so the signal I get is maximum, and there is never a question of how high it was set. If you save a project and come back a month later, the REAPER faders will be where you left them, and the guitar signal will match the previous takes.

This is for this reason that I discovered my problem. Because I used to set my guitar volume knob to its max (so that I always know the level is constant so I could more easily blend different takes), I heard a bit of distortion when playing rhythm; then seeing the guitar track meter it was mainly on orange.
I wanted to lower it to the green zone and I saw the only way is through my guitar volume knob.

So unfortunately I can't set always my guitar knob to its maximum.

[Sound-Guy]

Sounds like the Line6 has its instrument input gain set too high (for your guitar at least) so that full guitar volume is overloading the Line6 input as shown by the REAPER meter. The method I described for adjusting the record level with a second tack can't reduce the initial overload that the LINE6 creates. Unfortunate.

As an audio engineer I've run into similar problems (levels too high) over the years with various types of equipment, and one approach is to make an attenuating cable to reduce the signal level from the guitar to the Line6 input so that you can use the guitar level control set to full. Since an instrument-level input has an impedance typically of 1 megohm, it's easy to make a resistor divider to reduce the signal. DO NOT just try adding series resistance since this will increase hum and noise, and likely affect tone and distortion. But a two-resistor divider circuit should be able to maintain a high enough load impedance on the guitar pick-up coil while adding a relatively low parallel resistance to the Line6 input.

I don't know how much reduction you need, but if you wired a 640 K-Ohm resister in the series leg and a 160 K-Ohm resistor parallel across the Line6 input, the reduction would be 15 dB. Using a 570 K-ohm in series and a 370 K-ohm parallel would yield a 10 dB "pad". I've actually soldered together such attenuators inside a TRS plug housing since you can use small low power resistors. And it cost less than US$1 for a couple resistors. If you are not the "engineering" type, you should be able to find someone in your area who could wire up such a modified cable. Just be sure you know which end has the "pad" and mark it because if you plugged that end into the guitar, it would create a mess! No permanent damage, but you'd load the pick-up coil down with a low impedance which could change the tone drastically, and add series resistance that would likely create a lot of hum.

You said in your first message "Then in my POD Farm software interface of my Line 6 I have a number of knobs and faders in its mixer view labeled in or out level" -- are you sure none of these knobs adjusts the Line6 instrument input level? Seems Line6 has really screwed up their design if there truly is no input level adjustment on the instrument input. I've never used any of their equipment, but I am surprised they would cut corners on a design so seriously. Every interface I have (or had -- half a dozen analog/digital/analog interfaces) and every hardware mixer I've had, about 5 of them, have input gain controls.

You should be able to solve the problem of too high a signal level and get back to recording! Good luck with it!

[cbrown0034]

Hey all,
I have a problem that I need help with. When using a M-Audio Mini 32 midi controller, I get a constant solid orange signal level reading from the vu meter while recording and during playback..
This is how I set it up in reaper-
1. New track with virtual instrument
2. set input selection Midi:USB audio device: All channels.
"USB aduio device" is how my computer recognized the mini 32.)
The sound is not distorted at any time during record or playback.
The issue is that the VU meter signal looks completely orange, even at the softest recording level, like down to one bar in volume.
Input volume changes do not effect the color. It looks like an overloaded signal right from the start, but the playback is fine. I have tried everything I could think of to make it look green until clipping like everything else I have recorded but I can't solve this problem.(New
discovery. I have found out now that even if I just plug a mic in, it also had an orange vu meter signal. I use addictive drums also, and when I drag a beat into reaper that signal looks green when it plays back like it should though. So, basically it seems any external signal be it usb or mic shows up with a constant orange/borderline red signal.)
Thanks for your help!
Cbrown0034
btw, I am using Focusrite SaffireUSB6 as an I/O with a dedicated USB card, and the mini32 is usb plugged into my regular USB card.
Am I in the wrong place to get help with this issue? has anyone else ever even had this happen before?
Should I just ignore it and just record as long as it sounds ok?
Thank you in advance for any insight of any kind.

[baseggio]

Which Line 6 interface do you have? If it's like my TonePort, the volume control is in the software. You have to have Pod farm running while you record, which I assume you would to hear your processed tone. In there, click on the "Mixer" tab on the left - you will see two faders, which relate to the unprocessed and processed signal. You can adjust your signal with these, depending on which input you're recording.