Old 08-26-2016, 07:28 AM   #1
moonfiremusic
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Default Cheap USB interfaces and latency

I've been looking at cheap USB interfaces (from M-Audio, PreSonus, Alesis etc) to buy for my laptop and I've noticed that they don't come with native ASIO drivers (actually no drivers at all, they're plug'n'play). How to they handle latency and working with virtual instruments?
Have the ASIO4ALL/WDM drivers gotten better, or are the newer CPUs more capable of handling the processing?
Also, is it true that professional interfaces have built in DSPs that can do some of the audio processing and take some load off of the CPU?
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:08 AM   #2
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that's weird that they wouldn't have ASIO drivers. Are you sure? Is this for mac?
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:11 AM   #3
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Alesis indeed points the user to ASIO4ALL drivers, but this feels like an exception not the rule, usually there are native drivers from most manufacturers.

Here's some (real life, measured) lantency data collected by one of forum members:

http://www.kailuamusicschool.com/tec...tency-roundup/
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:50 AM   #4
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Alesis Core 1: http://www.alesis.com/products/legacy/core-1
Presonus Audio Box USB: http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-USB
M-Audio M-Track series: http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/m-track-hub
http://m-audio.com/m-tracks/2x2
Behringer UM2: https://www.music-group.com/Categori...es/UM2/p/P0AVV
This one actually has a link to ASIO4ALL.

These are some of them. There is some official software in the "support" section, but no mention of ASIO, not even in the specs.

Also, another thing that's bugging me is what happens when they drop driver support for them. I have an E-MU PCI audio card on the desktop which works perfectly fine and is still very decent, but only works with Windows 7 due to the drivers. Am I supposed to just throw it away?
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:27 AM   #5
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Audiobox refers to ASIO setting in the manual, so its most likely included in the control panel app. I see the driver M-track 2x2 in their support section, gonna guess it includes ASIO. M-track hub is odd, doesn't really look like a proper interface (no ins). Alesis and Behringer are just damn lazy

Driver obsolescence sucks, yeah.
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Old 08-29-2016, 08:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfiremusic View Post
I have an E-MU PCI audio card on the desktop which works perfectly fine and is still very decent, but only works with Windows 7 due to the drivers. Am I supposed to just throw it away?
You can always try it. On a local forum, someone installed an old Terratec EWS88 MT PCI card on Windows 7 with drivers for XP. With some help from other forum members, he succeeded to get it running. He promptly upgraded to Win10 and that old card is still running fine.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfiremusic View Post
Also, another thing that's bugging me is what happens when they drop driver support for them. I have an E-MU PCI audio card on the desktop which works perfectly fine and is still very decent, but only works with Windows 7 due to the drivers. Am I supposed to just throw it away?
Yup. I have the same interface, 1616PCI running on Win 7 Pro (32 bit).

I called EMU and asked them. They very bluntly and unceremoniously told me no new drivers for my existing interface beyond what they have already "gone out of their way to provide" for 32 bit Windows 7. IF i want to go beyond Windows 7 32 bit then I have to buy a brand new 1616PCI.

And now I'm not cinvinced that will be any different. If you look at their web site the specs on the 1616PCI say nothing about Win7, they only say XP. Windows XP has been dead support wise for almost 5 years now.

I think they want to steer people to the UR series.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:33 AM   #8
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This is a great card that seems relatively unknown:

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/novation-nio

Zero latency monitoring and comes with some dedicated fx.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:00 PM   #9
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I see a lot of USB bashing, some of it deserved. But USB2 provides a theoretical bandwidth of 480 MB/Sec, which is easily enough for 250 mono audio streams at 44.1K/24 bit. This assumes nobody else is using that hub...

Math:
mono stream at 44.1K/24bit:
44100 words/sec x 24 bits/word = 1058400 bits/sec per channel

480 Mbits/sec divided by 1.0584 Mbits/sec = 453 channels
(theoretical limit, assuming only audio is using USB).

You can scale this; if you double the sample rate to 88.2KHz, you're limited to only 226 channels.

To be fair, 10 to 15% of this is devoted to things like transmission overhead (data packeting uses some of those bits to identify who the data came from and where it's going). So, knock 15% off of 226 channels, and you're down to only about 192 channels of 88.2K/24bit.


I've found that to be plenty for my work. If someone really needs more than 100 channels, they'd probably opt to get something more than a prosumer interface, like a MADI setup. At least in a rational sense...

Last edited by Philbo King; 02-13-2018 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfiremusic View Post
I've been looking at cheap USB interfaces (from M-Audio, PreSonus, Alesis etc) to buy for my laptop and I've noticed that they don't come with native ASIO drivers (actually no drivers at all, they're plug'n'play). How to they handle latency and working with virtual instruments?
Have the ASIO4ALL/WDM drivers gotten better, or are the newer CPUs more capable of handling the processing?
Also, is it true that professional interfaces have built in DSPs that can do some of the audio processing and take some load off of the CPU?
They probably use the "class compliant" drivers built into ASIO (Windows) or Core Audio (Mac).

If you are aiming to do live performance or live sound where you need to monitor your output from Reaper with low latency (below the threshold of perception) and including using MIDI instrument plugins, you should really consider a firewire or thunderbolt interface. The money you save with the cheap USB unit will make up for itself in frustration. Especially if you discover the bottom line for the "cheap" system is not possible to use in a live setting no matter what you tweak!
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
They probably use the "class compliant" drivers built into ASIO (Windows) or Core Audio (Mac).

If you are aiming to do live performance or live sound where you need to monitor your output from Reaper with low latency (below the threshold of perception) and including using MIDI instrument plugins, you should really consider a firewire or thunderbolt interface. The money you save with the cheap USB unit will make up for itself in frustration. Especially if you discover the bottom line for the "cheap" system is not possible to use in a live setting no matter what you tweak!
I don't think I've seen a (Windows) laptop with Firewire or Thunderbolt. Aren't they Mac-specific?
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfiremusic View Post
I don't think I've seen a (Windows) laptop with Firewire or Thunderbolt. Aren't they Mac-specific?
Nope. Standard stuff. There are a whole crop of those watered down "netbooks" with the Windows platform that don't include any ports beyond USB. So you'll see a lot of Windows machines with no ports.

The advice of not going cheap for a live performance system extends to the computer too (Mac or Windows).

Buying a brand new computer with thunderbolt along with a TB interface is a bit pricey. But there's older pro equipment out there that will do the job. Just as good of a job too but easier on the wallet.
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:28 PM   #13
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Hello.

Not sure this is going to help, but, last month I was on a similar quest as you; "cheap USB interfaces (from M-Audio, PreSonus, Alesis etc) to buy for my laptop".

I did a lot of shopping around and finally got this product from Sam Ash:

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/pro...o-gt/studiogt/



Dual active studio monitors
USB audio interface with 16-bit, 44.1kHz/48kHz resolution
4.25-inch magnetically shielded, inverted cone, copolymer woofers
1-inch silk dome high frequency drivers
40 watts (2 x 20) of stereo power
Two XLR-1/4-inch combo inputs with gain control and clip LED
Stereo RCA and 1/8-inch aux inputs
Two 1/8-inch stereo headphone outputs with level controls
2-position switch for no-latency direct stereo and mono monitoring
Mix control to balance computer and audio sources
Includes USB cable and speaker cable




Why did I end up buying this product?

Well... it does the same thing as a USB interface (i.e. lets you plug in instruments, headphones, volume recording and playback nobs, etc), BUT it's all bundled up inside studio monitors!

Ok, the monitor may not be pro-level, but let me tell you this: they sound fantastic and real help with mixing my songs. Yeah, before I was doing it mostly with headphones and really really cheap speakers.

I don't work for Samson, or Sam Ash, but I'm totally satisfied with the product and the online purchasing. I has a quick look at Sam Ash and it seems they don't have that exact same model in stock, but they have the same monitor in a package that offers a microphone (heck maybe you need a mic?):

http://www.samash.com/studio-monitor...e--ssgt4prox-p

As you see the price is not too steep.

Many other types of brands have this USB mixer/monitor bundle.

Anyway, as far as the ASIO and latency, well... on my side of things, I simply plug the monitor into the USB and BINGO - Asio recognizes the device in Reaper, Pod Farm, Kontakt, and all other playback software.

Latency, none. I have a very cheap laptop 2009 (3 gig RAM window 7) and when I plug my guitar and record along a track playing in Reaper they are perfectly in sink. I could be because the headphones and guitar are both plugged in the monitors?! I don't know, but I'm happy it works so well seeing that I'm setup with cheap gear and all...

Here is what the guitars sounded like when recorded through the USB/monitor system: https://soundcloud.com/rdbois/the-ca...john-trudell-1

I wish you well!

RDBOIS
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Old 08-27-2016, 07:17 AM   #14
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Win XP/7/8 no problem with USB audio class interfaces. True plug-and-play.

Win10: only USB 1.1 audio class driver is still included. A USB 2.0 audio class device won't work, unless you buy one of the 3rd party drivers.
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfiremusic View Post
I don't think I've seen a (Windows) laptop with Firewire or Thunderbolt. Aren't they Mac-specific?
Firewire is much more difficult to find these days for PC (especially laptops) unless things have changed and it's typically important to get at FW adapter that uses the TI chipset. Then you need a FW sound card. I have a 1700.00 FireFace 800 that is useless without a legacy FW interface. That's why my FireFace UFX has both FW and USB.

Re USB: In many cases it is just fine. USB3 is much better. USB2 won't usually have issues unless the simultaneous record track count gets too high (depending on the interface). However, what many don't realize is USB bandwidth issues are often in conjunction with other non-audio devices that eat that bandwidth unless you can truly get it separated from all other USB devices which is many times easier said than done. This becomes especially true with a laptop hence the issues. However, if you are only doing a few incoming tracks live at a time, USB should be fine, even moreso if you use something like RME babyface etc. where they write their own USB implementation.
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:56 AM   #16
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Firewire has been obsolete as a port now since 2013. The thunderbolt port is intended to be used with an adapter. This gives you full firewire performance and is more or less analogous to using an express card (pci connected) adapter in the past. Express34 slots disappeared when thunderbolt came along too for the same reason.

The point however, is that there is pro quality older tech available out there. You can often get deals on things that give you more bang for the buck that a budget offering of a new product.

An older pro interface and a circa 2010 laptop will do magnitudes more than a brand new budget netbook and a cheap USB interface. And it's a lot easier to justify than retooling with a top end thunderbolt machine and new thunderbolt audio interface!

Options.
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Old 08-28-2016, 08:09 AM   #17
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Not that anybody needs a thunderbolt port or interface for a laptop when there are USB3 (and 2) interfaces that perform exceptionally well too. Thunderbolt is 'just' a kind of PCIe interface, but on a nice wire, so for desktop it's kind of irrelevant.

The RME MADface XT does 400 channels of I/O on USB3 for example. I've never met anybody that does that, but I'm sure there are a handful of people out there running laptops and more than 400 channels of IO so Thunderbolt would be great for them.
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