True Stereo Reverb using ReaVerb (Revisited)..

[Tod]

<<Update 01/27/15>>

The link below has a ZIP file containing both a Track Template and a FX-Chain for True Stereo ReaVerb...

https://stash.reaper.fm/23039/True%20Stereo%20Reverb.zip

<<<<<<<-------------------------------->>>>>>>

Continuing on from an earlier thread, I'd like to persue getting ReaVerb set up for True Stereo Reverb..

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=107356

I don't think that the currently accepted method for setting up ReaVerb for True Stereo Reverb is quite correct, which was based on a post by Justin. I don't know where that particular post is so forgive me if I'm wrong Justin.

Based on a thread by cerendir this is an explanation what True Stereo Reverb is.



So going from there, I'm trying to logically figure out how this should work. The picture below basically describes what I'm thinking.



Incidentally, all the numbers indicate pin configurations. So what do you all think, would it work?

[Wolffman]

Here is Justin's post, at least a post

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...38&postcount=6

Its been a while since i used ReaVerb but i think this works OK from memory,
but i know next to nothing about how a true stereo reverb works under the hood.

Cheers

[bradleyfilms]

Originally Posted by Tod

Continuing on from an earlier thread, I'd like to persue getting ReaVerb set up for True Stereo Reverb..

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=107356

I don't think that the currently accepted method for setting up ReaVerb for True Stereo Reverb is quite correct, which was based on a post by Justin. I don't know where that particular post is so forgive me if I'm wrong Justin.

Based on a thread by cerendir this is an explanation what True Stereo Reverb is.



So going from there, I'm trying to logically figure out how this should work. The picture below basically describes what I'm thinking.

Sorry Tod, but these top 2 images aren't the same. Remember each of these convolution files is in stereo and have a left and a right component. This is why your left channel must be connected to both sides of IR1-A. Likewise for your right channel. Just as is shown in the first image. In your image the right hand componant of IR1-A will be processing silence.

Incidentally, all the numbers indicate pin configurations. So what do you all think, would it work?

In the bottom 2 images here your first one has the wiring wrong and should read from top down 1 L, 1 L, 2 R, 2 R. Your pin numbering is also wrong and should read from the top down 1, 2, 3, 4.

The way you've got it wont give you true stereo convolution.
Hope this makes it clearer. Steve

[Tod]

Thanks Wolffman for link. I looked for it yesterday and couldn't find it.

Originally Posted by bradleyfilms

Sorry Tod, but these top 2 images aren't the same. Remember each of these convolution files is in stereo and have a left and a right component. This is why your left channel must be connected to both sides of IR1-A. Likewise for your right channel. Just as is shown in the first image. In your image the right hand componant of IR1-A will be processing silence.

In the bottom 2 images here your first one has the wiring wrong and should read from top down 1 L, 1 L, 2 R, 2 R. Your pin numbering is also wrong and should read from the top down 1, 2, 3, 4.

The way you've got it wont give you true stereo convolution.
Hope this makes it clearer. Steve

Thanks Steve, I'm assuming somethings wrong in my thinking on this. So follow me through if you will. From Justin's post.

Originally Posted by Justin

Hmm, if it were me, I would do the following:

• track set to 4ch.
• reaverb, load left impulse, inputting both inputs from track channel 1, outputting stereo to track channel 3/4.
• reaverb, load right impulse, inputting both inputs from track channel 2, outputting stereo to track channel 1/2.
• reaeq, inputting left from channels 1 and 3, right from 2 and 4. output to 1 and 2 (stereo).

Is this not what he's saying or am I thinking wrong? ReaVerb #1 is the Left Stereo impulse and ReaVerb #2 is the RIght.

[bradleyfilms]

You've interpreted Justin absolutely correctly.
I'm at fault here as I was thinking in terms of the ReaVerbs being in parallel when of course they're not. My apologies.
Your pin connections are spot on and that will give you true stereo. All you need is another plugin so you can connect channels 1&3 to In 1 and 2&4 to In 2 and you're done.
Justin suggests ReaEq, but you could use anything. I usually use the JS Volume utility when reining things in to channels 1/2.
Steve

[Tod]

Originally Posted by bradleyfilms

You've interpreted Justin absolutely correctly.
I'm at fault here as I was thinking in terms of the ReaVerbs being in parallel when of course they're not. My apologies.
Your pin connections are spot on and that will give you true stereo. All you need is another plugin so you can connect channels 1&3 to In 1 and 2&4 to In 2 and you're done.
Justin suggests ReaEq, but you could use anything. I usually use the JS Volume utility when reining things in to channels 1/2.
Steve

Thanks again Steve. Yes I've got that included as you can see in this post.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...38&postcount=4

In the Plug-in pin connector shown above what is the relationship of the (1->, 2->, 3-> 4->) to the VST in 1 / VST in 2?

[Tod]

The big problem with Justin's method is that the stereo signals coming into the verb are all summed mono. At least I think they are.

          ReaVerb-A                     ReaVerb-B

   In1    In2   Out1  Out2    |    In1    In2   Out1  Out2
1-> x      x     -     -  1-> | 1-> -      -     x     -  1->
2-> -      -     -     -  2-> | 2-> x      x     -     x  2->
3-> -      -     x     -  3-> | 3-> -      -     -     -  3->
4-> -      -     -     x  4-> | 4-> -      -     -     -  4->

The way it appears to me is that both Left & Right are being summed in ReaVerb-A and also in ReaVerb-B. Is this not the case?

[Tod]

To further my observations I put four JS Meters in front, in between, and at the end of the Stereo Verb chain. Heres a LICEcap showing how they turn mono. The first JS Meter show the incoming stereo signal but each subsequent meter shows mono.

[bradleyfilms]

On the stereo 'verb put all three plugins on the 1 track and the channels are so
1-> the left component of the right input
2-> the right '' '' '' '' ''
3-> the left '' '' '' left ''
4-> the right '' '' '' '' ''

What you're doing with reaEq is summing the left components then the right.
So it's 1 and 3 to In 1, 2 and 4 to In 2, exactly as you've done in that post.
Steve
EDIT Ooops the phone rang before I posted this. What are the Impulse files you're using? They look very mono!! Look at the wave in ReaVerb (in the little screen in the middle) you should be seeing 2 lines.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by bradleyfilms

On the stereo 'verb put all three plugins on the 1 track and the channels are so
1-> the left component of the right input
2-> the right '' '' '' '' ''
3-> the left '' '' '' left ''
4-> the right '' '' '' '' ''

What you're doing with reaEq is summing the left components then the right.
So it's 1 and 3 to In 1, 2 and 4 to In 2, exactly as you've done in that post.
Steve
EDIT Ooops the phone rang before I posted this. What are the Impulse files you're using? They look very mono!! Look at the wave in ReaVerb (in the little screen in the middle) you should be seeing 2 lines.

I actually don't have any impulses loaded, I've been using it this way to conduct the tests. I think I've got it figured out. What was confusing me was the relationship of the (1->, 2->, 3->, 4->) and the VST inputs 1&2. Once it clicked in this old brain of mine it was like one of those daah moments.

I think now I can confidently go on using it, I use it quite a bit for my orchestra stuff.

Thanks for sticking with me Steve, you were a big help.

[dug dog]

I've been interested in setting up a nice stereo reverb for some time.
I'm not sure if I'm just tired, but this topic has my brain spinning.

Tod: Any chance you could post an FX chain for the reverb bus?

Thanks a bunch.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dug dog

I've been interested in setting up a nice stereo reverb for some time.
I'm not sure if I'm just tired, but this topic has my brain spinning.

Tod: Any chance you could post an FX chain for the reverb bus?

Thanks a bunch.

Sure, here's a Track Template to put in your Track Templates folder. You'll probably be asked for 2 or 3 files but just ignore them. One is for a track icon that I use and the other two will be for the impulses. You'll have to delete the impulse files that will show up in the two ReaVerbs and load your own Left and Right stereo impulses.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...RTrackTemplate

Here's a FX-Chain to put in your FXChains folder. Here again you'll have to load your own stereo impulses.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...b%201.RfxChain

Also here's a little sketch I made that might shead a little light on how it works. Heh heh, at least this is how I think it works.

[bluzkat]

Originally Posted by dug dog

I've been interested in setting up a nice stereo reverb for some time.
I'm not sure if I'm just tired, but this topic has my brain spinning.

Or you could try this:

http://www.liquidsonics.com/software_reverberate_le.htm.

This is the 'free' version (charityware, actually) and there is a commercial version available.

[dug dog]

Awesome. Thanks, Tod. Hopefully, I'll be able to give this a spin on the weekend.

Bluzkat: Thank you for the pointer. At a quick glance, I see that Reverberate LE does not have "the modulation or true stereo capabilities of Reverberate" so I'm not sure how it would be helpful. Perhaps, you meant to point to the full version that's available for 50 British pounds?

Cheers.

[bluzkat]

Originally Posted by dug dog

Bluzkat: Thank you for the pointer. At a quick glance, I see that Reverberate LE does not have "the modulation or true stereo capabilities of Reverberate" so I'm not sure how it would be helpful. Perhaps, you meant to point to the full version that's available for 50 British pounds?

Cheers.

Oops, I didn't realize the 'free' version wasn't 'stereo'. I have the full version.

[dug dog]

No probs.

Being in a rather low snack bracket, I prefer free when possible but I'm not completely adverse to spending a little money so it's good to know that you think Reverberate is money well spent.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dug dog

Awesome. Thanks, Tod. Hopefully, I'll be able to give this a spin on the weekend.

Your welcome dug dog, if you need some good impulses try these Samplicity IRs, they're free and quite good.

http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m...lse-responses/

[dug dog]

I've just quickly played with those FX chains/templates. To my ears, it SOUNDS like a stereo reverb. I got a bit lost with all the diagrams, so is it really as simple as just setting up a bus with that FX chain and sending stuff to it?

I hope so...

I'm a bit weak with the multiple pin sending stuff so thanks for bearing with me.

[dug dog]

BTW, thanks for the heads up on those Samplicity impulses. They were lauded in some other thread, so I downloaded them in anticipation of figuring out how they're to be used.

[Dstruct]

Vote: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1843

[Serenitynow]

This all sounds so cool but is way above my head at this point in my learning curve! : (

Is there a huge difference in how the true stereo sounds?
Any examples?

Is this reaverb method the easiest way to do this ...for free?

Thanks for the help!

[norbury brook]

just get hold of Reverberate and you'll have a great x64 convolution reverb that does true stereo all for only £50

http://www.liquidsonics.com/software_reverberate.htm


MC

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Dstruct

Vote: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1843

Thanks Dstruct, I'd already voted.

Originally Posted by Serenitynow

Is there a huge difference in how the true stereo sounds?
Any examples?

I don't have time to put anything together right at the moment. About the only thing I have is a Star Trek theme that I used my own custom orchestra library on. It was an Orchestra Shootout contest, heh heh, I won 5th place which got me a free library.

Anyway I used ReaVerb (True Stereo) on it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...axBitRate).mp3

Is this reaverb method the easiest way to do this ...for free?

There are other free Convo-Verbs out there but I think ReaVerb sounds pretty good and once you save it as a Track Template it's easy to setup.

[Sexan]

edit:user error

[Smurf]

Very cool, I can not wait to try this out!

Thank You for all the hard work & head scratching!

[sqkychair]

Originally Posted by Tod

Sure, here's a Track Template to put in your Track Templates folder. You'll probably be asked for 2 or 3 files but just ignore them. One is for a track icon that I use and the other two will be for the impulses. You'll have to delete the impulse files that will show up in the two ReaVerbs and load your own Left and Right stereo impulses.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...RTrackTemplate

Here's a FX-Chain to put in your FXChains folder. Here again you'll have to load your own stereo impulses.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...b%201.RfxChain

Also here's a little sketch I made that might shead a little light on how it works. Heh heh, at least this is how I think it works.

Tod,
My first gut reaction was to use two tracks.
I am using the Bricasti impulses by the way.

I put the Left impulse on one track and the Right impulse on another track. I did nothing else as far as the routing, I send the original stereo track straight into both tracks. It LOOKS like the stereo is being preserved at the master. (The left and right move independently)

I then downloaded your track template, thanks for putting that together.
I compared the two methods and I could not hear much of a difference.

What do you think? Have you tried this method.

Now, having said all that I am shocked at how good these sound compared to some other free reverbs I have demoed lately. (been researching my verbs lately and trying to weed out the collection)

Incidentally, in the Bricasti samples theere is a MidSide impulse as well as the left and right. Any idea what this is used for?
I tried it but it does not sound very wide.
EDIT: I now realize these are Mono To Stereo files.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by sqkychair

Tod,
My first gut reaction was to use two tracks.
I am using the Bricasti impulses by the way.

I put the Left impulse on one track and the Right impulse on another track. I did nothing else as far as the routing, I send the original stereo track straight into both tracks. It LOOKS like the stereo is being preserved at the master. (The left and right move independently)

I then downloaded your track template, thanks for putting that together.
I compared the two methods and I could not hear much of a difference.

What do you think? Have you tried this method.

I think the only problem using two tracks is that you're getting both Left & Right to both impulses. You need a way of separating L&R from the originating tracks.

Now, having said all that I am shocked at how good these sound compared to some other free reverbs I have demoed lately. (been researching my verbs lately and trying to weed out the collection)

Incidentally, in the Bricasti samples theere is a MidSide impulse as well as the left and right. Any idea what this is used for?
I tried it but it does not sound very wide.

Those are actually Mono to Stereo impulses to use when you're not using True Stereo Reverb.

Yes I think the impulses are good too, Peter Roos did a great job on them.

[Sambo Rouge]

[QUOTE=Tod;1033315]

"---- an Orchestra Shootout contest, ---- I used ReaVerb (True Stereo) on it."

QUOTE]

I gave it a listen Tod, very nice --- its obvious that you took care with the reverb fx.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Sambo Rouge

I gave it a listen Tod, very nice --- its obvious that you took care with the reverb fx.

Thanks Sambo, I appreciate it. Yes I did work pretty hard on it because I primarily used my own custom orchestra library and I was up against all the big guns.

[Serenitynow]

Originally Posted by Tod

Thanks Dstruct, I'd already voted.



I don't have time to put anything together right at the moment. About the only thing I have is a Star Trek theme that I used my own custom orchestra library on. It was an Orchestra Shootout contest, heh heh, I won 5th place which got me a free library.

Anyway I used ReaVerb (True Stereo) on it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...axBitRate).mp3


There are other free Convo-Verbs out there but I think ReaVerb sounds pretty good and once you save it as a Track Template it's easy to setup.

Wow, color me impressed - great work on that theme!!

[Serenitynow]

So, are there any other paths to free True stereo reverb? Did I read correctly somewhere above that it can be done via algo reverbs - which ones?

Is the difference in using this a big difference? I mean would an average listener, say like my wife, notice the difference if I played them back to back for her?

Thanks for all the help!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Serenitynow

Wow, color me impressed - great work on that theme!!

Thanks John.

Originally Posted by Serenitynow

So, are there any other paths to free True stereo reverb? Did I read correctly somewhere above that it can be done via algo reverbs - which ones?

I would think not unless they have been setup especially for True Sereo Verb. You might be able to use two totally different separate algo reverbs, don't know, I've never stopped to think about it before. Good question.

Is the difference in using this a big difference? I mean would an average listener, say like my wife, notice the difference if I played them back to back for her?

Thanks for all the help!

Heh heh, that might depend on how perceptive your wife is.

For me, I think it does make a difference, especially with orchestral type music. However, I don't think the difference is like, glaring out at you.

[sqkychair]

Originally Posted by Tod

I think the only problem using two tracks is that you're getting both Left & Right to both impulses. You need a way of separating L&R from the originating tracks.

And of course, I must come in and give the answer to my own question.

I did some research with 4 different methods.

My source track was a snare hit left, right then up the middle. This source was sent one at a time to the following FX only tracks:

1.Epicverb - Does a nice job by the way!
2.The MonoToStereo IR file on a single track.
3.My method of simply going to the Left track and the Right track.
4.Tods track template.

1 and 4 sound the same (pan-wise). No matter which side the source appears on, the reverb shows up in both channels.

2 and 3 sound the same. If the source hit is on the right, the reverb only shows up on the right.

I believe that 1 and 4 are correct. So Tod's template is the way to go. That is how all the algorithmic verbs I tried did it.

The MonoTOStereo Idea (2 and 3) might work only as an effect as the reverb would seem to some from different directions. Not really very good at imitating a real space.

So, I am a big fan of EpicVerb because it is FREE and it sounds good fro almost all work I have done so far.

HOWEVER, a few tests I did showed that the IR method may actually be better.
I found that I could get come frequency "build-up" problems with Epciverb on longer settings that did not show up in the IR. It will be good to have both options.

Now, we just need Reaverb to handle both files in one instance, with selectable routing and include all the start and trim stuff as well!!!

That's not asking much Ha Ha!!

[Rusty Falcon]

Originally Posted by Serenitynow

So, are there any other paths to free True stereo reverb? Did I read correctly somewhere above that it can be done via algo reverbs - which ones?

Here is a link to a set of True Stereo impulses for Bricasti M7: http://rhythminmind.net/STN/?page_id=667

Haven't tried these myself since I've been knocking my head on Reverberate LE. I see in a post above that the LE version doesn't do True Stereo.

I also like the Lexicon PCM 90 impulses from the same author which sound great in Reverberate LE: http://rhythminmind.net/STN/?page_id=358

I might have to try using ReaVerb with the Bricasti M7 impulses and the info in this thread. Not sure what I gain using True Stereo reverb over just standard impulses but it sounds like it might be impressive!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by sqkychair

I did some research with 4 different methods.

My source track was a snare hit left, right then up the middle. This source was sent one at a time to the following FX only tracks:

1.Epicverb - Does a nice job by the way!
2.The MonoToStereo IR file on a single track.
3.My method of simply going to the Left track and the Right track.
4.Tods track template.

1 and 4 sound the same (pan-wise). No matter which side the source appears on, the reverb shows up in both channels.

2 and 3 sound the same. If the source hit is on the right, the reverb only shows up on the right.

Hi sqkychair, what you're seeing here is either a flaw/bug with ReaVerb or with Epicverb.

Epicverb is working as if it's getting the signal Pre-Fader/Pan (even if it's setup Post) while ReaVerb is definitely Post-Fader/Pan and needs to be setup Pre-Fader/Pan to work the same.

I'm not sure which one I'd call flawed, on the one hand I'd expect ReaVerb to work the same as Epicverb. However, on the other hand Epicverb can't be setup Post-Fader/Pan.

[sqkychair]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi sqkychair, what you're seeing here is either a flaw/bug with ReaVerb or with Epicverb.

Epicverb is working as if it's getting the signal Pre-Fader/Pan (even if it's setup Post) while ReaVerb is definitely Post-Fader/Pan and needs to be setup Pre-Fader/Pan to work the same.

I'm not sure which one I'd call flawed, on the one hand I'd expect ReaVerb to work the same as Epicverb. However, on the other hand Epicverb can't be setup Post-Fader/Pan.

I am saying that EpicVerb, with no extra routing appears to be doing the same as the track template you posted.

In other words, your track template appears to be doing things correctly.

[sqkychair]

Here are the outputs from each of those tests.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by sqkychair

I am saying that EpicVerb, with no extra routing appears to be doing the same as the track template you posted.

In other words, your track template appears to be doing things correctly.

Yes and I thank you but I also thank you for testing this out. I didn't realize using ReaVerb with a M-to-S impulse works like it does, totally pre-fader/pan. Heh heh, that's not only good to know but can be very important when using M-to-S impulses. Fortunately I haven't had a critical situation with this yet.

So thankyou.

[sqkychair]

Sure thing,
I think most people should check out those test files to get a little better understanding of what stereo reverb is all about.

It was an eye opener for me for sure.

[saddle]

Originally Posted by Tod

Yes and I thank you but I also thank you for testing this out. I didn't realize using ReaVerb with a M-to-S impulse works like it does, totally pre-fader/pan. Heh heh, that's not only good to know but can be very important when using M-to-S impulses. Fortunately I haven't had a critical situation with this yet.

So thankyou.

I believe that Cockos released a fix for Reaverb in their ReaPack V2.1 vst's (Free) just two weeks ago. Also in Reaper 4.32 I _Think_. Anyway, it addressed the mono/stereo issue in ReaVerb. I don't know what they fixed, but I remember reading the notes.

From the download page changelog for Reaper 4.32:

ReaVerb:

fixed incorrect transition from mono to stereo signals with stereo impulses
corrected latency immediately after samplerate change

Maybe this will do what you want? I as well have setup a (what I thought) true stereo reverb with ReaVerb and stereo impulses. Maybe I haven't been getting 'True Stereo' either??