Old 02-27-2021, 11:52 AM   #1
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Default v6.24rc9 - February 27 2021

v6.24rc9 - February 27 2021
  • * Includes branch: LV2
  • * Includes branch: razor editing
  • # Razor edit: by default, alt/opt+drag moves or copies areas ignoring envelope type
  • # Razor edit: when media and envelope areas are both selected, don't allow moving envelope areas across lanes on the same track
  • # Windows: 32-bit build should now have similar TLS/FLS handle performance as 6.23
  • # Windows: fix 32-bit ReaRoute
  • # lv2: allow various supported features in metadata (e.g. requiredFeature:ui#parent) [p=2410733]
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 02-27-2021, 01:08 PM   #2
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Bug:

If I move an envelope over a track envelope which has been already created but which is not displayed, the track envelope remains displayed instead of being hidden.

"move envelope razor edit areas based on envelope type" enabled


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Old 02-27-2021, 01:13 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
If I move an envelope over a track envelope which has been already created but which is not displayed, the track envelope remains displayed instead of being hidden.
That is a live-with-it for now. It's the same as the forever existing behavior when you move media items and envelopes together.
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Old 02-27-2021, 02:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno View Post
Wouldn't it be possible to implement a small time buffer, so that the mouse cursor (and the razor edit) has to hover over a track for a certain time (e.g. 1 second) before the envelope opens on the target track and the razor edit can be dropped to avoid this problem?
Hum. For me the issue is:

After hovering over a track above which we haven't drop nothing on thoses envelope tracks, envelopes remain displayed instead of being hidden. It only happens when envelopes hovered have been previously created. So, there is some inconsistency, too.

For me, there is absolute no interest to display one or more undesired envelopes.
Lost of time!

I don't understand what issue you are trying to solve. We can solve the problem I'm talking about without time delay.

Good behavior (envelopes don't exist before the hover):
Envelopes are hidden after the hover.





Bad behavior (envelope already exist):
Envelopes are NOT hidden after the hover.


Last edited by ovnis; 02-27-2021 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 02-27-2021, 03:00 PM   #5
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There's an issue when move/copy both item and envelope to create a new track.
It creates just a new track without the item and envelope.




Also can you please check this issue that i posted in RC7?
Especially now that ignoring envelope type is by default, it would be confusing not to copy envelopes with this modifier.

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...51&postcount=3
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Old 02-27-2021, 03:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
There's an issue when move/copy both item and envelope to create a new track.
It creates just a new track without the item and envelope.
What mouse modifier are you using?
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Old 02-27-2021, 03:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
we can copy the envelopes to the second track only with "copy areas" modifier and not with "copy areas ignoring envelope type"
If there are no envelopes showing on the second track, you can't use the "ignoring envelope type" modifier to copy. Because how can REAPER know what envelopes to create if it's ignoring the envelope type?
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Old 02-27-2021, 04:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
What mouse modifier are you using?
I've tried them all, just move/ignoring envelope type and just copy/ignoring envelope type

Also this happens:



And scrolling the vertical fader makes the previous created track disappear

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Old 02-27-2021, 04:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
If there are no envelopes showing on the second track, you can't use the "ignoring envelope type" modifier to copy. Because how can REAPER know what envelopes to create if it's ignoring the envelope type?
True but can't Reaper do an exception in this case and copy them no matter if there are no visible envelopes and since both tracks have the same effects?
I think there will be confusing scenarios when this happens.

I think ignoring envelope type modifier should be like a combination of both allowing every move or copy to anywhere.

Last edited by Vagelis; 02-27-2021 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:34 PM   #10
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About the first gif i posted, i find it more logical not to be possible to create a new track when move both item and envelope.
Copy them with both modifiers (just copy/ignoring envelope type) would make more sense i think
EDIT: (Only if it's a track envelope and not fx parameter).

Last edited by Vagelis; 02-28-2021 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 02-28-2021, 02:17 AM   #11
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What about adding these modifier alternatives for right-drag "Create razor edit area" :

Set time selection. => time selection would be set either over the current razor edit being drawn or from the start of the earliest razor edit to the end of the latest.

Select underlaying items. This should be default. Because as "area selection" was made to "razor edit" because of clashes with existing time selection behavior, there are also clashes with existing marquee select items behavior.

User case: I want to heal two items. I right-drag draw razor edit over the split, hit the action and ... unexpectedly nothing happens.

---------------------------------------

Razor edit mouse modifiers alternatives for "Track -> left drag" and "Arrange -> left drag" differs.

Why not add razor edit also for "Arrange view -> middle drag".

Btw, why there must be two contexts ("Track" and "Arrange") for the same thing? How can one not get lost?
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Old 02-28-2021, 04:14 AM   #12
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RE resize handle appears in the middle of RE created on tracks with multiple layers of AI in media lane:

this makes it hard to grab RE at smaller zooms, because i end up grabbing the resize handle instead of the center of the RE.

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Old 02-28-2021, 06:37 AM   #13
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1) Please make, that when you right click on an item, the tracks collapse in the opposite direction.

2) Starting from version 6 of the program, the indication of the monitoring record in a minimized state has stopped working, if possible, return please.
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Old 02-28-2021, 06:45 AM   #14
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New bug with the razor editor (no envelope type).

We can't move envelopes hover the envelope tracks when envelopes are selected with media items with the razor item (no envelope type)!

But it's OK when media items are not selected!


Last edited by ovnis; 02-28-2021 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 02-28-2021, 06:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
We can't move envelopes hover the envelope tracks when envelopes are selected with media items with the razor item (no envelope type)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird View Post
This behaviour of moving envelopes and items seperately while dragging feels super broken when using a mouse modifier that ignores envelope type. Dragging areas should move what is being dragged without changing the shape of the selection.
You guys are reporting the behavior the other wants as a bug. As of rc9 you can't move envelope areas to different lanes if there is also media selected, in other words, the shape of the razor edit stays the same on a given track.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:15 AM   #16
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I don't understand the interest of this new behavior. Could you explain me?
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:22 AM   #17
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i think the lack of a sign (allowed/not allowed) that i have been telling a lot's of times makes the perception of something strange/buggy happening when something not allowed, no matter what. It's an abrupt visual clash every time something is not allowed. Anyway.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
You guys are reporting the behavior the other wants as a bug. As of rc9 you can't move envelope areas to different lanes if there is also media selected, in other words, the shape of the razor edit stays the same on a given track.
The new behaviour makes the most sense. Testing should always be done with a practical use in mind, otherwise there is no way to discriminate between "good" and "bad" limitations and help the developers make the right choices.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
As of rc9 you can't move envelope areas to different lanes if there is also media selected
I like this behavior, also reminds me of Cubase. IF you select item and envelope and move them with ignoring envelope type modifier, moves the envelope to the same lane number e.g from 1-1 2-2 etc
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:26 AM   #20
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"The new behaviour makes the most sense."

Could you explain why, please?
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
I don't understand the interest of this new behavior. Could you explain me?
This new behaviour will probably prevent mistakes: users selecting items + envelopes want to move the RE horizontally or to another track in at least 99% of cases. Can you explain provide a single situation where the behaviour you want would be useful?
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
I don't understand the interest of this new behavior. Could you explain me?
If i interpret correctly: you want to move an RE with item into the same track.
with WYSIWYG it doesn't make sense to allow dragging the media item into the lanes of the same track. If you want to move lanes around, you select lanes only without Media item selected, otherwise is not WYSIWYG.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:30 AM   #23
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Hello,

I don't like very much this new feature. This doesn't remove the problem due to the fact that it is sometimes difficult to move an envelope on the same line and it adds a new issue. Now if we want to move media item + envelopes hover other envelopes we have to do more manipulations.

"This does not remove the problem due to the fact that it is sometimes difficult to move an envelope on the same line"
This is also a false problem because if the zoom is good we can maintain envelope on the same envelope track.

And even if the envelope is not on the right envelope track, at the end we can always correct the placement very quickly.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
If i interpret correctly: you want to move an RE with item into the same track.
with WYSIWYG it doesn't make sense to allow dragging the media item into the lanes of the same track. If you want to move lanes around, you select lanes only without Media item selected, otherwise is not WYSIWYG.
Exactly. We should remember about WYSIWYG design here.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:36 AM   #25
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You guys taking about move RE ignoring envelope type? Because i don't find anything wrong in here. The lane you are selecting to move it moves to the same lane number of the destination track no matter if the parameters match, that's also how Cubase works as i remember

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Old 02-28-2021, 07:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
You guys taking about move RE ignoring envelope type? Because i don't find anything wrong in here. The lane you are selecting to move it moves to the same lane number of the destination track no matter if the parameters match, that's also how Cubase works as i remember

i like it. Same thing. WYSIWYG . Simple. Expectable. No magic things going on.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiiscompos View Post
This new behaviour will probably prevent mistakes: users selecting items + envelopes want to move the RE horizontally or to another track in at least 99% of cases. Can you explain provide a single situation where the behaviour you want would be useful?
Because if you move the RE with the mouse cursor on the same track (or envelope track), the RE will not move vertically.

The old behavior can be useful when you want to move media item + envelope on new tracks.

For example, if you want to move an item on a new synth, with the old behavior, if you want to put the previous synth filter envelope on the new synth filter envelope it's very fast. But now, you have to make more movements.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:45 AM   #28
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And if you want to move just the envelope after the item was moved, you just deselect the area with the item.

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Old 02-28-2021, 07:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
You guys taking about move RE ignoring envelope type? Because i don't find anything wrong in here. The lane you are selecting to move it moves to the same lane number of the destination track no matter if the parameters match, that's also how Cubase works as i remember

This behavior is good. I'm not complaining about that.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
And if you want to move just the envelope after the item was moved, you just deselect the area with the item.

Yes. But it takes more time.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Yes. But it takes more time.
but in practice how manny times that happens? move an item and move an envelope as the next step to another lane? it's kind of a random thing, in my pespective.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:51 AM   #32
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I think what could solve the above cases would be if we could move separately as well each selection with another modifier and not as group.
That way even if there are many selections on different envelopes, then we could move them separately.
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Old 02-28-2021, 07:55 AM   #33
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but in practice how manny times that happens?
Not often!
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:05 AM   #34
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so maybe it's not worth an abrupt visual /glitchy movement for the 99.9 % of the times that:
- we want to move just horizontally RE with items and envelope - prone to do mistakes by changing the envelopes to a different lane when doing that.
- we want to move item and envelope to another track

but maybe it's worth for other users ! anyway ! is difficult
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:08 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
i think the lack of a sign (allowed/not allowed) that i have been telling a lot's of times makes the perception of something strange/buggy happening when something not allowed, no matter what. It's an abrupt visual clash every time something is not allowed. Anyway.
i can't stress this enough. If it's something doable in a reasonable time, please DEVS consider it. At this point, this is the difference between something visually that works but #$%#$&#& a bit strange to a perfect feature, AKA "as it should be".
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:09 AM   #36
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Razor ergonomy is complex. It can be hard to find the good formula for everyone.

Quote:
- we want to move item and envelope to another track
Yes. And for this kind of thing, the old behavior can have an interest.

For exemple: I want my midi item to be played by an another synth which is on a another track. On my original track, I have a synth filter envelope and I want to reproduce the same thing with the other synth. But envelope tracks are not organized in the same way. So here, the old behavior can be useful.

Last edited by ovnis; 02-28-2021 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Razor ergonomy is complex. It can be hard to find the good formula for everyone.

^^ yep yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Yes. And for this kind of thing, the old behavior can have an interest.

For exemple: I want my midi item to be played by an another synth which is on a another track. On my original track, I have a synth filter envelope and I want to reproduce the same thing with the other synth. But envelope tracks are not organized in the same way. So here, the old behavior can be useful.
i understand what you mean and the need , also for send levels , reverb/distortion/flanger dry/wet all of them having different indexes in the chains so in practice this is very complex situation to be deal with one solution only, it's to manny factors (indexes with random logic) . And since every envelope param is so unique and some of them with dramatic changes i would tend to move or copy one by one. And it's quite fast with a good AS like RE is at the moment.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
i think the lack of a sign (allowed/not allowed) that i have been telling a lot's of times makes the perception of something strange/buggy happening when something not allowed, no matter what. It's an abrupt visual clash every time something is not allowed. Anyway.
I agree, a visual feedback is really needed for a proper UX.
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:53 AM   #39
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Issue: It seems the last touched indicator isn't perfectly aligned with item vertical dimension.


I dont know if it is the same with all theme but I suppose it should work across theme.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
I agree, a visual feedback is really needed for a proper UX.
Yes. It will easer to use it.
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