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05-20-2007, 09:50 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: swing on the spiral of our divinity
Posts: 2,242
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Ways to reduce microphone bleed...
Ok. My band had its first recording session today. We're a three piece - bass, drum, guitar. No vocals right now.
Three mics on the drumkit to start with. Two overheads, one kick. It worked very well.
But the bass amp and guitar amp are quite loud, and consequently, there is a lot of bleed on the drum tracks. It isn't a bad thing really at the moment, since we're just experimenting.
We're stuck with just one rehearsal room, and we need to be able to hear ourselves over the drumkit, and we don't really want to use headphones each.
We're recording as a ensemble. What can I do to reduce bleed? I know that I can expect to eliminate it totally, but it would be good to have some tips on this.
ps: I used Reaper for the whole thing, and it was flawless.
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05-20-2007, 03:56 PM
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#2
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Mortal
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,654
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- Screens (improvised if need be)
- Greater separation between sounds sources
- Mics closer to sound sources
- Fewer mics
- Deader room
and so forth - there's no magic formula that I know of!
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05-20-2007, 05:51 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
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Follow Art's advice. You won't be able to kill it all unless you totally isolate the sources. You CAN improve your mixes with a careful use of ReaFir in gate mode and/or "Auto Trim/Split selected items" in the Item Processing menu. I used Auto Trim/Split judiciously on drum tracks my sons band recorded. The drums and mix were total MUD before I cleaned the bleed as much as I could in Reaper. Play around with it.
D
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05-20-2007, 07:51 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes
Follow Art's advice. You won't be able to kill it all unless you totally isolate the sources. You CAN improve your mixes with a careful use of ReaFir in gate mode and/or "Auto Trim/Split selected items" in the Item Processing menu. I used Auto Trim/Split judiciously on drum tracks my sons band recorded. The drums and mix were total MUD before I cleaned the bleed as much as I could in Reaper. Play around with it.
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sorry, how does auto/trim/split help with mic bleed?
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05-20-2007, 09:10 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles.monteiro
sorry, how does auto/trim/split help with mic bleed?
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My experiance has been poor with that. I find that I can paralel an auto expander on snare mics, you can expand/gate kick and tom close mics too, but the over heads are one cohesive sound and really suffer if you gate them in any way. I just let the bleed give the other instruments close mics thier room sound. It works well if the sounds are well balanced in the room. Use the drum close mics to add punch to those individual hits. for drum close mics I tend to do something like..........auto expander into compressor(let some transients through) into transient designer type plug. An EQ might go where its needed.
Arts suggestions are spot on.
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05-21-2007, 03:08 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: swing on the spiral of our divinity
Posts: 2,242
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Cool, I will try out those suggestions. I like the idea of trying to use screens, but the drummer was already complaining that he couldn't hear the bass from behind the kit.
My soundcard doesn't have multiple outputs, so giving everyone a pair of headphones isn't really a viable option.
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05-21-2007, 03:23 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberience
My soundcard doesn't have multiple outputs, so giving everyone a pair of headphones isn't really a viable option.
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Presonus, Behringer, ART, Rolls, Samson, et al. make some relatively inexpensive (US$50-100) 4 channel headphone amps that would hook y'all up quite nicely. Another option is to look for something like a Rane HC-6 second hand off ebay.
Then you can run the bass and guitars direct, and, if the amp sims aren't doing it for you, you can always reamp the bass and guitar after the fact, to get the real amp sound. (You'll need a slightly modified direct box to do the reamping.)
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05-21-2007, 06:12 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: swing on the spiral of our divinity
Posts: 2,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdru
Presonus, Behringer, ART, Rolls, Samson, et al. make some relatively inexpensive (US$50-100) 4 channel headphone amps that would hook y'all up quite nicely. Another option is to look for something like a Rane HC-6 second hand off ebay.
Then you can run the bass and guitars direct, and, if the amp sims aren't doing it for you, you can always reamp the bass and guitar after the fact, to get the real amp sound. (You'll need a slightly modified direct box to do the reamping.)
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Thanks. I will look at getting a headphone amp.
But the problem with going direct with the bass and guitar is that we want to feel the amplifiers, because that has everything to do with getting a good performance.
I can cope with some bleed, I just wanted to make sure I was doing everything I could to combat it.
As for the placement of the bass amp. I could move it closer to the other members, but that would also move it closer to the drum mics.
I'll experiment with placement I guess.
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05-21-2007, 07:43 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 914
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Use the bleed to your advantage. Get a great live sound. You have to make the room sound great, mainly from where the overheads are. Treat the crap out of the room. Lots of bass traps. If its a small room, kill ALL the frequencies. Use a convolution to put the whole mix into a bigger (better) space.
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05-21-2007, 07:56 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles.monteiro
sorry, how does auto/trim/split help with mic bleed?
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It does not help with mic bleed of course. It does enable you to quickly silence the bleed on say a kick track and keep the hits.
D
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05-21-2007, 08:05 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney Oz
Posts: 8,480
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2 screens, one either side of the drums, works amazingly well.
Try a good hypercardioid mic for kick, to reject spill
eg my favourite http://www.frontendaudio.com/Audix_D...pho_p/1366.htm
the auto trim/split thing works great along with gating, after recording (not on overheads though)
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06-23-2007, 10:14 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Coos Bay, OR
Posts: 772
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If you ever learn to focus on music, instead of instruments and recording, this minor annoyance will go away. In the meantime, feed your egos well, but it will show in the finished product.
__________________
Playback's A Bitch
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06-24-2007, 01:01 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
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sugestion
try:
-add 1 mic close to snare/hi-hat then you have more control with overhead mics (to much cymbals in your records)
-isolate your drummer - separate room would be helpful
-give headphones for the drummer only(i guess he uses metronome already - you can run metronome from computer)
besides band sounds nice
Last edited by piotrekz5; 06-24-2007 at 01:17 PM.
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06-24-2007, 01:46 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 789
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*Always* a good idea to put the drummer in a separate room :-) Ideally a separate recording session...
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Mike Lacey, Leicestershire, UK
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06-24-2007, 01:57 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 91
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Two thoughts...
1. Put everybody on headphones, DI the guitar and bass and put them through amp simulators in Reaper. Then re-amp or re-record them later.
or
2. Record everybody together as a demo version, then have everybody overdub their instruments one at a time over the demo, starting with the drums. That way everybody has an idea of the energy of the performance and can hear the other instruments while they're overdubbing their, especially the drums.
Even with baffles and close mics, in such a confined area, you are always going to get bleed, especially at Rock band volumes. Larger studios put everyone, or at least their amps, in different rooms usually with windows so they can at least see each other. In Jazz and other acoustic form,s the bleed is OK, and often encouraged, but only if the room itself contributes a nice sound.
As a wise Canadian once said..."Ya cannot defy the laws of physics captain!"
__________________
The definition of insanity is trying the same action multiple times and expecting different results. It's the audio engineers job description.
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07-30-2007, 06:37 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Audubon, NJ
Posts: 11
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the only way to completely eliminate bleed is to record your amped instruments direct with no speaker.
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Ryno
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08-08-2007, 12:36 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11
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Just record full bleed.
It sounds better anyway, you will get better performances, and a cohesive "glued together" sound you cannot get any other way.
I don't get this obsession with trying to isolate everything. The only case where this doesn't work is when you have a small room, a loud drummer, and something like a fingerstyle guitar to pick up. Obviously when the ambient room sound is louder at the mic position than the intended sound you will have to do something about it to make a usable recording.
Some of the best recordings I have made were full bleed and minimal mics. We had a jazz jam at my house a couple of Christmases ago and recorded 8 tracks full bleed... drum kit with two mics, coupla guitar amps, Rhodes, piano, bass. It was killin'.
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08-09-2007, 06:18 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Port Neches, Texas
Posts: 1,948
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It very much depends on what you're going for. Jazz is definitely recorded live in the room, minimal mic setup, bleed used to effect. But the simple fact is, jazz players are, more often than not, leagues ahead of their rock counterparts in abilities.
Even still, if the band is really tight, and everyone's tracks are keepers, live in the room, bleed and all can sound great. I've tracked guys that way many times.
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IT'S A TROMBONE !!!
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08-10-2007, 03:35 AM
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#19
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,051
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Im with Measuring Man
if AT ALL possible, play to a click.
Find out the minimum number of instruments the drummer will need to hear to play correctly. Stick with the minimum if you can, more stuff to throw off and confuse a guy who swings sticks in the air for fun is not a good idea.
Record the guitar in parallel with both DI and amp or just DI and some amp sim plug in reaper as shown in http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php..._Tricks_Part_1
Edit the crap out of it. Same for bass or whatever else. The DI track will make it VERY easy to see where you edit...It will likely do wonders for your guitar skills as well, taking such a good look at exactly HOW you play can shine a giant light on areas for improvement.
After all that, give the drummer some headphones and let him take all the takes he needs. Go over problem spots, and pay attention to maybe new ways of writing the drums in order to REALLY make the drums tell a lot about the song.
barring all that, if you have to record live, walk up to the guitar player, point at the ceiling. When he looks up, kick him in the nards...HARD and say "turn that crap down, and tune it for once!!!"
Look VERY quickly at the bass player so he knows you mean business and you still have your foot ready just in case he didnt get it the first time.
Now that volumes are in check, you might have an easier time.
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08-10-2007, 04:58 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: swing on the spiral of our divinity
Posts: 2,242
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My band is dead, but thanks for the advice.
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08-11-2007, 09:56 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 91
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Bands come and go... somehow I got a career out of being the guy in all the bands I was win who gave a s**t about how we sounded when recorded. Now people pay me more to do that than they ever did to hear me play.
__________________
The definition of insanity is trying the same action multiple times and expecting different results. It's the audio engineers job description.
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08-13-2007, 01:04 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7
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sorry about your band, but incase you get an other one...
when we recorded our album, we recorded the drums, bass and guitar all at once. the drummer had head phones, and it was fine. all the energy of the live recording.
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