Old 09-05-2014, 07:52 AM   #121
whiteaxxxe
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While I appreciate all the help im being given... from everyone including you... remember one thing.. you weren't so hot shit once yourself.. so do me a favor be a little more cordial and empathetic and realize that you too had to learn this cuz you weren't born knowing how to do any of it... or you can get off my thread... cuz there are others on here who are actually trying to help me with a little less attitude and are so quick to shit on my attempts... THANK YOU.
ok. no problem.

never said what you have read into my posts. I see that you didnt get what I said. if you dont like someone telling you that your attitude in making music leads you to nothing, so be it. I didnt ask for help and then got onto someone who tried to explain whats the main problem is. if you are not interested in me discussing YOUR issues here ... ok. I have no probelm with that.

but its your attitude that gives you issues, musicwise.

have a nice day ...
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:08 AM   #122
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well ... some people dont like it when someone tells them that there is something wrong, though they have recognised it themselves. but anyway ...

what I dont get: if someone wants to achieve that Killswitch Engage sound (from here on I will write only KE, for its too much of typing ...) they most simple methos is to flick on an KE album, listen to his own mixes and the KE album and find out where the hell is the difference. its called referencing. there is a reason why I listen to music on exactly the same monitoring system that I do my mixes on. and if you reference, most of the differences between KE and headcase a5re so obvious ... but no, there is bragging about programming/playing drums out of time because he is a rebel against the "industry" and so on ... seems to me as a more religious thing than wanting to get rid of the problems in the real world.

it took three pages for him to get nearer to the point to admit that his mixes and his mastering is not ok. I dont think that is the right way to ask for help, assuming its anybodys or any equipments fault but not his.

but its so easy to blame Reaper (Cubase, Pro Tools, whatever ...), the pres, the DAC, the plugins, whatever than to consider having done something really the wrong way.

problem is: that solves not a single issue. so I call this a serious lack of wanting to learn. and learning is all we do, although we call it "making music". :-))))
AND FOR YOUR INFO I USED A REFERENCE TRACK AND AGAIN I DON'T HEAR WHAT YOU HEAR.. IT TOOK SOMEONE ELSE TO SAY I WAS OUTTA PHASE.. THAT WASN'T YOU.. IT TOOK SOMEONE ELSE TO SAY HE EXPERIENCED THE SAME ISSUE WHILE RENDERING AND CONVERSION BUT THAT WASN'T YOU EITHER... ALL YOU'VE DONE IS BE OVERLY CRITICAL AND UN fing HELPFUL.. OK IM NOT THE BEST OMG I REFUSE TO PUT THINGS IN TIME... GUESS WHAT... YOURE THE EXACT REASON WHY ILL NEVER PUT IT IN EXACT TIME.. IM HEAR TO LEARN NOT BE SHIT ON
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:24 AM   #123
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AND FOR YOUR INFO I USED A REFERENCE TRACK AND AGAIN I DON'T HEAR WHAT YOU HEAR.. IT TOOK SOMEONE ELSE TO SAY I WAS OUTTA PHASE.. THAT WASN'T YOU.. IT TOOK SOMEONE ELSE TO SAY HE EXPERIENCED THE SAME ISSUE WHILE RENDERING AND CONVERSION BUT THAT WASN'T YOU EITHER... ALL YOU'VE DONE IS BE OVERLY CRITICAL AND UN fing HELPFUL.. OK IM NOT THE BEST OMG I REFUSE TO PUT THINGS IN TIME... GUESS WHAT... YOURE THE EXACT REASON WHY ILL NEVER PUT IT IN EXACT TIME.. IM HEAR TO LEARN NOT BE SHIT ON
see, thats the problem. you blame everyone else and everything else. first thing - and now I am helping you really with a meaningful advise - is to think of thats your own fault if something doesnt sound good.

and no, I think you dont want to learn. I think you defend everything you do, you didnt put anything in question you did, and part after part came out that it was all you in doing something wrong. if you would want to learn, you would have considered that you did something wrong. but no, your mixes were always very ok (no, they werent), your mastering chain is like the big boys do it (no, it isnt), your masters always sounded good (no, they didnt) and all your work in the past translated very well (I dont know that, buit what I have heard here on my monitors, that you blamed too for your mixes sounding bad, I doubt that anything translated), your wrong drumming and out of time things is a rebellion against the inhumanity of the industry (no, its not, its simply bad musicianship), and so on and on ...

no, you dont want to learn. you dont ask, you let others get to the point and then you blame them.

real davise: get rid of your mastering chain, I wrote that before. so if you dont want to hear advises, go on. its your issues.

I am out, because you know better. but if you know better, why the hell are your mixes sound that bad? that is what I call a bad attitude that I dont take any longer.

Im out. of this here, of course ...
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:24 AM   #124
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ok. no problem.

never said what you have read into my posts. I see that you didnt get what I said. if you dont like someone telling you that your attitude in making music leads you to nothing, so be it. I didnt ask for help and then got onto someone who tried to explain whats the main problem is. if you are not interested in me discussing YOUR issues here ... ok. I have no probelm with that.

but its your attitude that gives you issues, musicwise.

have a nice day ...
Really? the snare hit being off is causing the pumping??? or what ever else you are telling my mix or master has wrong???? so everyone else who said its well recorded it just needs a little of this or i need to dump this or check my phase all of them are idiots cuz they haven't pointed out that my drums aren't in perfect time???? come on dude... everyone else has been so helpful all youve done is critisize everyone else is trying to help.. and none of them have said oh btw your drums are outta time fix that first... again ill listen to them and good luck to you... appreciate it im sorry you wasted your time here on poor pathetic me...
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:39 AM   #125
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see, thats the problem. you blame everyone else and everything else. first thing - and now I am helping you really with a meaningful advise - is to think of thats your own fault if something doesnt sound good.

and no, I think you dont want to learn. I think you defend everything you do, you didnt put anything in question you did, and part after part came out that it was all you in doing something wrong. if you would want to learn, you would have considered that you did something wrong. but no, your mixes were always very ok (no, they werent), your mastering chain is like the big boys do it (no, it isnt), your masters always sounded good (no, they didnt) and all your work in the past translated very well (I dont know that, buit what I have heard here on my monitors, that you blamed too for your mixes sounding bad, I doubt that anything translated), your wrong drumming and out of time things is a rebellion against the inhumanity of the industry (no, its not, its simply bad musicianship), and so on and on ...

no, you dont want to learn. you dont ask, you let others get to the point and then you blame them.

real davise: get rid of your mastering chain, I wrote that before. so if you dont want to hear advises, go on. its your issues.

I am out, because you know better. but if you know better, why the hell are your mixes sound that bad? that is what I call a bad attitude that I dont take any longer.

Im out. of this here, of course ...
Im not blaming them,, Im thanking them.. cuz everyone has actualy been less critical and more helpful... but the fact that im not a human metronome makes me a bad musician.. oh and i dont tune my guitar.. my mixes are completely untuned... that is a big issue for me.. i just dont know how to use a tuner...and im sorry im just not as good as the award winning platinum selling whiteaxxe.. but i blame you cuz im unwilling to say that yeah my stuff need swork... just not time work as far as im concerned.. the compression pumping yeah ill give it to you i dont hear it but others agreed so ill give you that win... have a good one...

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Old 09-05-2014, 09:26 AM   #126
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I just wanted to say in no offense to anyone who has helped.. im not arrogant and i do understand that timing is important.. if and entire symphony was all playing out of time it would sound horrible.. if everyone just when at ther own pace it would sound disgusting... so yes i totally understand that timing is important IM NOT AN IDIOT... but perfect time is robotic.. in human and im not a robot.. but with that said.. its my belief that THAT MUSIC IS ART NOT SCIENCE although in this day and age it has more science then art but so far no one has heard my tracks and said.. "its great but your timing isnt perfect.." fans dont deconstruct things that way.. engineers do.. and i will admit i dont chop and shift things into perfect time.. its just not my thing.. guilty as charged.. its not to say that my music is horribly off time... ok well thanks everyone for their suggestions and direction... im working on it this evening so i will be loading updated mixes... for more instruction and help..
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Old 09-05-2014, 09:32 AM   #127
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ok well thanks everyone for their suggestions and direction... im working on it this evening so i will be loading updated mixes... for more instruction and help..
Good job. Well done.
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Old 09-05-2014, 09:34 AM   #128
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Default Good for you...........

Do not let what people say here, scare you off.

The people here are really into the craft of "all things recording". They have experience, and they have pretty good ears.

We really are just trying to help.

Everybody here takes, and gives advice from each other.

Your just another one of "us".

Peace.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:30 AM   #129
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Do not let what people say here, scare you off.

The people here are really into the craft of "all things recording". They have experience, and they have pretty good ears.

We really are just trying to help.

Everybody here takes, and gives advice from each other.

Your just another one of "us".

Peace.
Thank you.. I really do appreciate it.. I know there is a way of doing things... I truly do.. I just truly believe LIVE there isn't anyone quantizing the band so im a purist in that sense.. and if there is HELL i would hate that job... hahahahaha
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:34 AM   #130
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Good job. Well done.
Ill remember to use soundcloud this time hahahahah
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:04 PM   #131
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Ill remember to use soundcloud this time
Won't that just add yet more compression?
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:29 PM   #132
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Hopefully you don't mind a longer response, hope it's not too much TL;DR...

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its my belief that THAT MUSIC IS ART NOT SCIENCE although in this day and age it has more science then art but so far no one has heard my tracks and said.. "its great but your timing isnt perfect.." fans dont deconstruct things that way.. engineers do..
Sometimes it is about art and expression... but if you're striving for accuracy and clarity in your mix, then it really is about a disciplined and informed approach to your mixing. Don't let emotion and feelings of "but it's art! my art!" get in the way of that goal.

In a more general sense, being heavy is as much about being in lock-step with your bandmates as it is badass riffs and good tone... possibly even more so. Please don't let yourself be drawn away from that. The heaviest bands I've seen were the ones where everyone was tight with each other and hitting those riffs as a group.


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Really? the snare hit being off is causing the pumping???
Actually, yeah, a snare hit being off can cause pumping - by triggering a compressor too soon. And if you have mix-wide compression (as you have multiple instances of) then yes, things being off can absolutely cause pumping. Even subtle pumping can wreak merry havoc.

It's not always easy to hear. For me it starts as more of an awareness, a recognition that something isn't right. It takes time and concentration for me to cross off the list of possible culprits... but that's something that I need to work on.

to go a little further back,

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high pass at 40 then a little saturation to give it color (that's not compression right? just a little tape warmth)
Actually yes, tape saturation usually implies some degree of compression - that's part of where that warmth comes from.

Quote:

However, this optimisation of distortion is at the expense of high‑frequency extension and transient accuracy Ś and provides a 'warmer' sound character than the flat and linear response of digital systems.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb1...oguewarmth.htm
Translated, that means that less transients, less high-frequency content, more midrange, which all can contribute to a subjective imbalance between lows, mids, and highs. Not always, obviously, but something to really watch out for - especially when used with other compressors and saturation.

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next a high shelf to bring out the hats and cymbals..
But I can't hear your cymbals. Ergo, something is wrong. I don't hear it in the initial mix, so something in the mix isn't. Mastering should be a process of adding polish, not trying to fix the mix.

...

Overall, I hear you describing how you're trying to use those effects and I think that you have the right attitude towards it - multiple plugins, each adding their own subtle nuances. That attitude is a good one, I just think that how you're going about it is a little off, and that some of this needs to be addressed in the mix long before it's touched on in the mastering phase.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:38 PM   #133
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Thank you.. I really do appreciate it.. I know there is a way of doing things... I truly do.. I just truly believe LIVE there isn't anyone quantizing the band so im a purist in that sense.. and if there is HELL i would hate that job... hahahahaha
When I started running a soundboard and doing live music I figured that since I had some experience mixing that it would be a cakewalk. I was wrong. Mixing live has its own issues, its own challenges, requires its own approaches.

Being usually in a smaller room means that I can't mic the whole drumkit, that I have little control over how loud or even the drummer is, and I have to balance the house with the musicians' monitors, because so much of the sound in the room actually comes from those monitors.

Add mic bleed, feedback, room modes, singers who sometimes don't know proper mic technique, and it can be a special kind of hell. Really makes you appreciate musicians who might not be flashy or technically brilliant but are consistent and don't try to make it all about them.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:41 PM   #134
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TP Basslane is a simple plugin for that. Most mastering plugins should have something similar, but in the spirit of keeping it simple - http://www.toneprojects.com/products/plug-ins/basslane/.
This functionality is built in to Reaper. JS: Loser/stereoEnhancer.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:44 PM   #135
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believe me sometimes thats all you need but other times wou may need just a bit more... remember you can cook with only salt and pepper but sometimes adding garlic and other spices can take your dish from good to great.. give it a try in subtle small doses...
If you have a great mix, you can get by with a few simple tools to create a listenable master. Have you tried it? Try using the bare minimum. When applying EQ, get it where you like it, then back off a couple db. When you get the compressor where you like it, back off the threshold. I often go with a simplified approach. Not always, but more often than not. Using some restraint with all your processing is a good starting point.
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:54 PM   #136
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did you get the foo dynamic range?
The Audiocation Loudness Meter is what came up for download. I don't care much for it though. I like the TB_EBU Meter better.
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:07 PM   #137
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Won't that just add yet more compression?
to put the tracks on here for peopple to listen to? uh I wasn't aware that soundcloud did that i thought it was just a way to upload a song to the net
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:12 PM   #138
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When I started running a soundboard and doing live music I figured that since I had some experience mixing that it would be a cakewalk. I was wrong. Mixing live has its own issues, its own challenges, requires its own approaches.

Being usually in a smaller room means that I can't mic the whole drumkit, that I have little control over how loud or even the drummer is, and I have to balance the house with the musicians' monitors, because so much of the sound in the room actually comes from those monitors.

Add mic bleed, feedback, room modes, singers who sometimes don't know proper mic technique, and it can be a special kind of hell. Really makes you appreciate musicians who might not be flashy or technically brilliant but are consistent and don't try to make it all about them.
yeah that part was a joke... my timing although perfect isn't totally horrible either for not being cut into perfect time but yeah i get it.
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:13 PM   #139
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This functionality is built in to Reaper. JS: Loser/stereoEnhancer.
sweet thanks
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:16 PM   #140
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I wanted to conclude with a challenge. I would like you to try and create a new mix using nothing but ReaEQ and ReaComp on each channel, and ReaEQ, ReaComp, TP Basslane (or the JS stereowidener that citizenkeith pointed out below) and the JS plugin RBJ1073 in the global, in that order. Mix entirely in mono, and disable the global effects until the very end. High-pass everything that isn't the kick or bass guitar at least at 150 Hz. Keep it in mono so you hear phase issues right off the bat. If you have overhead mics and a separate kick mic, then high-pass your overheads, too.

In other words, build your mix from scratch with only volume levels, compression, and EQ, and only in mono.

Stretch yourself - can you do it? How does it sound when you do?
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:04 PM   #141
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to put the tracks on here for peopple to listen to? uh I wasn't aware that soundcloud did that i thought it was just a way to upload a song to the net
Soundcloud is ok for this purpose I think. Upload a good quality mp3. Im not 100% sure if it recodes it but for making it easy for forum members to click a link and hear it works pretty well, especially for most general mix feedback.

I've not run into a case where the apparent problems in my mix were actually just a problem with the MP3 compression (assuming a good codec like lame at hi bitrate)..

I think this is probably why all my favorite commercial songs sound pretty good as mp3s also
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:08 PM   #142
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uh I wasn't aware that soundcloud did that i thought it was just a way to upload a song to the net
I don't know much about it, but my understanding is that some processing takes place, and that it can mash up the sound quite a bit. It's probably not a major issue most of the time, but for your purposes, it would obviously be better if what you upload is what your critics hear.

That said, if you're happy with the way it sounds on Soundcloud, I suppose you might as well go for it.
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:23 PM   #143
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I wanted to conclude with a challenge. I would like you to try and create a new mix using nothing but ReaEQ and ReaComp on each channel, and ReaEQ, ReaComp, TP Basslane (or the JS stereowidener that citizenkeith pointed out below) and the JS plugin RBJ1073 in the global, in that order. Mix entirely in mono, and disable the global effects until the very end. High-pass everything that isn't the kick or bass guitar at least at 150 Hz. Keep it in mono so you hear phase issues right off the bat. If you have overhead mics and a separate kick mic, then high-pass your overheads, too.

In other words, build your mix from scratch with only volume levels, compression, and EQ, and only in mono.

Stretch yourself - can you do it? How does it sound when you do?
I would also advise headcase to try this method. It's a great way to learn and develop your mixing skills.
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:46 PM   #144
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JS plugin RBJ1073 in the global,
the what and how do i use this?is it standard with reaper? and ok let me see if I get this straight.. I do use the high pass on everything but i never put it on any of the drums so i will add those in there... and you want me to use eq on each track or do you mean just eq comp the stereo and that rbj1073 on the master channel? i wanna clarify that i understand you fully.. and I was planning on going home and re mixing in mono considering that aa few of y'all mentioned my guitars were WAY outta phase.. i need to check those straight first for sure... im gonna try using the invert polarity buttons on individual channels first before i go adding a phse corrector(after I fix or disable my widener... again on my mix the master chain is not even on the menu tonight is about fixing my mix...
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:51 PM   #145
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Soundcloud is ok for this purpose I think. Upload a good quality mp3. Im not 100% sure if it recodes it but for making it easy for forum members to click a link and hear it works pretty well, especially for most general mix feedback.

I've not run into a case where the apparent problems in my mix were actually just a problem with the MP3 compression (assuming a good codec like lame at hi bitrate)..

I think this is probably why all my favorite commercial songs sound pretty good as mp3s also
Well the one thing i noticed and was trying to point out that (and this just hit me) there may be a reason a few people have already suggested to me that when i think ive found the spot on my compressor back it off a bit.. its cuz I think when you render it kicks compressors or other plug ins for that matter just a bit harder.. but only when converting sample rates or bitrates mind you.. at least thats a theory as to why people have learned to back off just a bit.. which is a lesson learned and given not something someone would just know to do... but one im going to try... but that is for later and not cuz im defending my original stance on any of my stuff.. im just going to try it
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:53 PM   #146
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I don't know much about it, but my understanding is that some processing takes place, and that it can mash up the sound quite a bit. It's probably not a major issue most of the time, but for your purposes, it would obviously be better if what you upload is what your critics hear.

That said, if you're happy with the way it sounds on Soundcloud, I suppose you might as well go for it.
im happy using stash reaper but someone said they didn't want to have to download the tracks and suggested i use soundcloud but if you guys are happy sing the stash ill use the stash...
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Old 09-05-2014, 02:54 PM   #147
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I would also advise headcase to try this method. It's a great way to learn and develop your mixing skills.
oh believe my im going to as part of someone else's suggestions to help my mix.. and i will see which i like better but i may also load both and see what you guys think
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:06 PM   #148
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its cuz I think when you render it kicks compressors or other plug ins for that matter just a bit harder..
Close, but no. The plugin works the same.... it's your perception that is different, depending on your focus.

Did you ever get the perfect reverb balance on a snare, only to realise half an hour later that there's actually way too much reverb on the snare? It's the same thing. When you're listening to reverb and expecting it to sound reverby, you worry that it might not be reverby enough. It's only when you're focussed on something else that you realise you went overboard.... you're not supposed to notice the reverb.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:12 PM   #149
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Close, but no. The plugin works the same.... it's your perception that is different, depending on your focus.

Did you ever get the perfect reverb balance on a snare, only to realise half an hour later that there's actually way too much reverb on the snare? It's the same thing. When you're listening to reverb and expecting it to sound reverby, you worry that it might not be reverby enough. It's only when you're focussed on something else that you realise you went overboard.... you're not supposed to notice the reverb.
that could be iT... me over thinknng my compressor... but tonight its better mix night!
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:51 PM   #150
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Super big caveat before I go any further -

I don't claim to be more knowledgeable than anyone else here. I have far less experience than some. I'm not telling, I'm only suggesting what has been a good starting point for me in the past pretty consistently from mix to mix. Thank you for being receptive to this.

To sum:

ReaEQ and ReaComp on all channels. Highpass everything, higher (150 Hz+) if it's not a bass/kick, lower if it's the non-bottom end instrument (70-90 Hz? higher?), and really low if it is (40 Hz-ish). Many of the ReaComp presets aren't bad places to start, you may just need to tweak the thresholds appropriately.

With your mix in mono, use faders, compression, and EQ to get everything balanced out without using any exciters, saturation, etc. Just the plugins I've mentioned.

I'd suggest starting with drums solo'd, then add bass, then add vocals, then add guitars. At each step be willing to go to other instruments and cut out frequencies in other instruments to give these things space. Aside from high-pass, EQ vocals as little as possible.

It might not be a bad idea to try RBJ1073 on drums before trying ReaEQ, since it would be simpler, and those frequencies do tend to be ones we are interested in, drum-wise. Otherwise, use it globally, but only turn it on at the last step. (yes, it is bundled with Reaper)

Focus on consistency and putting all instruments in their proper place rather than getting it loud. That can always happen later, of course.

...

Stylistically, you have a choice - either the bass occupies your lowest frequencies or your kick does. The trend on what I've been listening to lately has been to really pull back the kick, so much that you hear it more than feel it. So, one of the two gets a low highpass (30-40 Hz?) and the other gets a higher highpass (70-90 Hz?). FWIW, I'm hearing the same trend with the snare - really pulled back. *shrug* YMMV.

A trick that I like to use with the 1073 plugin is to set the bass boost *below* the highpass, e.g. highpass at 60, boost at 50. It's a good way to give a gentle bass boost and warmth without using saturation. Definitely experiment with those midrange cuts - even -3 dB to the right frequency can make a huge difference, clarity-wise (this ties into the mud zone comment below).

You're going to add reverb to the mix at some point. Use as little as possible (the style you're going for tends to be very dry), and try to only use it after compression. This is important.

Pay attention to the mud zone. Many instruments tend to sound a little bit poo-ish in the 400-900 Hz region, especially guitars. Some cutting here may help improve clarity in your mix.

The only thing I'll say about the music stylistically is that it sounded odd to me to have the lead guitar appear out of nowhere then vanish. I'm not sure what to think about it, except that if it was me I'd pull it back a little and try to blend it in more with the rhythm guitars. That's just me.

...

Again, thank you for being receptive, and I apologize for the length of this post. Brevity is not my strong suit.
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:30 PM   #151
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ok really quick.. i currently have a differnet eq on both guitars.. to alter them slightly they are 2 sepereate recordings not just a duplicate track...i then have them as a send to another track where i have my recabinet impulses... could it be possible that the one recabinet as an aux instead of using one on each track could be causing them to be out of phase? im gonna try it both ways but I thought i would ask...
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Old 09-05-2014, 10:03 PM   #152
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OK guys mixed in mono nothing on the master bus not even compression just the mix... before i go any further... lets hear it.. BE GENTLE!

unfortunately stash keeps givving me an error while im trying to upload it.. it keeps saying check my browser settings so i had to send it thru the cloud i dont know what processing its gonna do to it i hope not a dam thing...

https://soundcloud.com/epitaphromance/untitled
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Old 09-06-2014, 12:05 AM   #153
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doesnt work for me, is it set to private?
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:34 AM   #154
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doesnt work for me, is it set to private?
yes sorry bout that
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:37 AM   #155
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ok now i do actuially need help.. at the 22 sec mark my right guitar fades out.... is that still a phase issue? i dont know why its doing that
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:02 AM   #156
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ok now i do actuially need help.. at the 22 sec mark my right guitar fades out.... is that still a phase issue? i dont know why its doing that
i fixed it.. I think
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:15 AM   #157
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i fixed it.. I think
What was the problem?
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:19 AM   #158
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What was the problem?
at 22 sec my right guitar fades out for some cooky reason.. i split it off the chain and it fixed it
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:27 AM   #159
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OK here it is... i had to load it ot sound cloud cuz stash keeps giving me an error... dont know why... and i can sdee that there was some procesing done cuz you can see the track jump and i havent even put any compression on the master bus.. t was just the mix on each individual track but you can see it jump around the 51 sec mark

https://soundcloud.com/epitaphromance/camp2

BE GENTLE!!! please.. haha just gimme yourt thoughts and some suggestions to correct any issues
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:29 PM   #160
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Yeah that's a big improvement. Much better!
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