Old 11-29-2009, 03:46 AM   #81
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if you still need a plug to delay your MIDI notes,
you can find the details here

if you do use it, please let me know how it works for you.

download on my signature.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:05 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ihao View Post
No, more like 20-30 ms in total. I have 5.3 ms i/o latency. When I delay the metronome to 25, I usually get notes placed a bit "back", in contrast to "ahead". 20 ms should be pretty accurate.
That is indeed strange... I'm sorry but I have no additional
info to add regarding this particular pre-delay at the moment.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:49 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
if you still need a plug to delay your MIDI notes,
you can find the details here

if you do use it, please let me know how it works for you.

download on my signature.
Hey. Thanks for the updated tool. I tried it, but it also adds delay when playing. Also, I seem to be compensating a lot myself when I change other variables. I have reached a conclusion about this. Read below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
That is indeed strange... I'm sorry but I have no additional
info to add regarding this particular pre-delay at the moment.
Yeah it is. Its almost impossbile to be entirely sure of the cause.

Well guys. I have found a solution. ENABLE INPUT MIDI QUANTIZE! Yeah, I didnt want to do that but hey, by using 1/32 or 1/16 you still got plenty of soul left for most stuff. (Why is 1/32 max though?) I've just arrived on the fact that as long as things are the way they are, real time midi recording will never be 100% perfect no matter what I do.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:23 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Chris Ihao View Post
Hey. Thanks for the updated tool. I tried it, but it also adds delay when playing.

I see,
i read your solution, if it works, that's how it should work, I think.

so I just want to ask you some more, not for solving this,
just for my knowledge.

- do you use a hardware to play the actual audio ?
- if you use a VSTi, you could put another instance of that plug
at the end of the chain, and use it to delay the AUDIO Pre - other tracks,
so it could fix the MIDI delay ?
(this was my previous suggest, btw)

- if you don't use any audio while playing, what different can be if the notes are lating or coming early,
anyway you don't hear them, and the plug just could fix them.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:22 PM   #85
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Hey whatsup, thanks for looking into this and for your contribution. I tested out your plugin, and in my case it doesn't seem to delay the "capturing" of the notes; it only delays the time the instrument receives the notes.

Without some complex routing, I don't see how this will help the notes get "captured" or "recorded" any later.

On another note, I tried cranking up my sound card's (RME FF 400) latency up to 1024. That seems to help quite a bit. But unfortunately, that introduces other timing problems due the high latency I hear in my monitoring.

Its weird to me that changing my latency settings on my sound card would affect how REAPER captures/records the notes. I think someone else noticed that earlier.

I think (earlier in the thread) we've found that at lower latencies, the notes are recorded earlier than expected.

So we have:

Higher latency settings = notes captured/recorded later (or perhaps accurately) than with lower latency.
Lower latency settings = notes captured/recorded earlier than expected.

Again, generally, I would think REAPER should capture the notes exactly as they are played--irrespective of sound card latency.

Again, its no solution to crank up your latency, because its quite difficult to play accurately with such latency.

I'm all confused again.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:37 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Hey whatsup, thanks for looking into this and for your contribution. I tested out your plugin, and in my case it doesn't seem to delay the "capturing" of the notes; it only delays the time the instrument receives the notes.

Without some complex routing, I don't see how this will help the notes get "captured" or "recorded" any later.
ah ok, now i got it.
did you try to use Record output MIDI ?
that's way i think you should get the notes recorded in the right place.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:46 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
- do you use a hardware to play the actual audio ?
- if you use a VSTi, you could put another instance of that plug
at the end of the chain, and use it to delay the AUDIO Pre - other tracks,
so it could fix the MIDI delay ?
(this was my previous suggest, btw)

- if you don't use any audio while playing, what different can be if the notes are lating or coming early,
anyway you don't hear them, and the plug just could fix them.
I'm using VSTi's only now, and yes I'm playing with audio. The point was that when playing (and wanting to have a low latency), the audio was delayed with the plug enabled.

I think I understand your suggestion. I'll look into it tomorrow or at least one of the coming days.

Happy with the input quantizing so far though, even if its not ideal for things like piano imho. If you cant beat em', join em'
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:57 PM   #88
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ah ok, now i got it.
did you try to use Record output MIDI ?
that's way i think you should get the notes recorded in the right place.
LOL, yes I tried that. But, then I can't do looping/overdubbing, which is really what I'm after.

Sigh.

Thanks again for your help.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Chris Ihao View Post
Happy with the input quantizing so far though, even if its not ideal for things like piano imho. If you cant beat em', join em'
That would be totally fine with me too, but I still have the issue with the loop recording.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:01 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ihao View Post
Happy with the input quantizing so far though, even if its not ideal for things like piano imho. If you cant beat em', join em'
exactly
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:09 PM   #91
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after the discussion with jbone, i came up with another idea.
what if you do it like this:
- arm track1. put there the delay plug.
- route track1 to track2 - MIDI.
- on track2 put the instrument.

now on Track2, shouldn't you get the recorded notes, exactly as you want them ?
and still record your self with loop, etc... ?
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:15 PM   #92
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Thumbs up Record: output (MIDI) records "what you hear"

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
that's way i think you should get the notes recorded in the right place.
I feel stupid... it was right there!



I thought that VSTi's were blocking MIDI and that Rec: out (MIDI)
would be only for MIDI generating plugs. Of course I didn't even
try...



You just made my day whatsup
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:18 PM   #93
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glad to hear that, man.

but you know, this is REAPER's power after all.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:26 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
glad to hear that, man.

but you know, this is REAPER's power after all.
True, I find myself underestimating it sometimes..
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:29 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by EricM View Post
...
I already thought of that. That's fine, but then you can't do overdubbing.

So maybe we need REAPER to allow both Record Output AND Overdubbing.

Does anybody do loop recording in REAPER?
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:38 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by EricM View Post
I thought that VSTi's were blocking MIDI and that Rec: out (MIDI)
would be only for MIDI generating plugs.
BTW: even if you have a VSTi that eats (block) MIDI, I alreay wrote here or somewhere else, you have full control on that too.
you can disable each plug from modifying MIDI.

if you right click on the "2 out" button, you'll see this.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:40 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
I already thought of that. That's fine, but then you can't do overdubbing.

So maybe we need REAPER to allow both Record Output AND Overdubbing.

Does anybody do loop recording in REAPER?
maybe look at my post above ?
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:44 PM   #98
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Ok I was speaking a bit to soon... some VSTi's do block MIDI for
output recording. Previously I was sending it to another
track which recorded the output.

jbone1313: Sorry, did not try it in loop recording mode.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:47 PM   #99
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EricM, I just wrote something about that.
look above.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:48 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
after the discussion with jbone, i came up with another idea.
what if you do it like this:
- arm track1. put there the delay plug.
- route track1 to track2 - MIDI.
- on track2 put the instrument.

now on Track2, shouldn't you get the recorded notes, exactly as you want them ?
and still record your self with loop, etc... ?
I tried that. Doesn't really work out. I attached the file, in case anyone feels like trying.
Attached Files
File Type: rpp Test.RPP (5.7 KB, 131 views)
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:52 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
BTW: even if you have a VSTi that eats (block) MIDI, I alreay wrote here or somewhere else, you have full control on that too.
you can disable each plug from modifying MIDI.

if you right click on the "2 out" button, you'll see this.
Thanks, tried that, but only see two inputs. Audio routing only?

I'll try to find your other post about that or more info on
pins if there is any.

Edit: nevermind, I got it. Have to disable replacing MIDI input
under output dialog. I'm guessing this cannot be changed to default?
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:15 PM   #102
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ERICM: I really don't know.
jabon:
- your project was so corrupt, I couldn't even find out why it couldn't produce any sound.

anyway I made some tests.
you didn't right at the first time.
you can record any way you can imagine.

- you want to record and see the notes drawing while recording ?

arm track, set record to input, choose, replace, etc...

- you want to record loop, on each loop a new item created ?

arm a track, set the record mode to output.

- you want both ? see notes while recording, and each loop
a new item created ?

arm 2 tracks
1. record input
2. record output.

3. route track 1 to track 2
or
use the same source device for both.

- want to see screen shots how i delayed the notes while recording them ?






- want a working tiny demo project ?

attached.

EDIT: just to be sure, download the last update from my signature.
Attached Files
File Type: rpp jbone.RPP (5.7 KB, 149 views)
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:32 PM   #103
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whatsup, I tried this with your plugin and works as expected.

You can play in real time while offseting the recording easily
on the same track, it just needs a few things set up correctly:

- delay_pan plug-in must be after the VSTi (to affect recording only)
- delay_pan plug-in must be set to delay MIDI only
- VSTi must let MIDI through (right clicking 2 out > MIDI out disable)
- Record: output (MIDI), Monitor: input

(just recaping for anyone looking for same solution)

http://screencast.com/t/NDlkZTQyYm

Example of loop recording with offseting the midi for one sec ahead,
while recording audio simultaniously to check offset.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:37 PM   #104
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almost exactly,
I already did many tests,
the plug-in, could,
and usually, should, be before any audio plug,
VSTi etc...

when you use it to delay MIDI.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:43 PM   #105
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Thanks for the replies guys. Please consider the below:

@EricM-You're looping, but your not looping + overdubing. That's what I'm looking for.

@Whatsup-

You missed the one scenario I need. I don't want a new item created every time, and I do not want to record takes. I want to loop + overdub.

Of course, overdubing is easy in REAPER. You just select, "Record: Midi Overdub in Existing Items".

However, then you cannot at the same time use "Record Output MIDI."

They're mutually exclusive. Thus, we cannot reap the benefits of accurately recorded MIDI notes whilst looping + overdubbing.

Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:52 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313
However, then you cannot at the same time use "Record Output MIDI."

They're mutually exclusive. Thus, we cannot reap the benefits of accurately recorded MIDI notes whilst looping + overdubbing.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup
arm 2 tracks
1. record input
2. record output.

3. route track 1 to track 2
or
use the same source device for both.
!.!.!.!.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:54 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
whatsup, I tried this with your plugin and works as expected.

You can play in real time while offseting the recording easily
on the same track, it just needs a few things set up correctly:

- delay_pan plug-in must be after the VSTi (to affect recording only)
- delay_pan plug-in must be set to delay MIDI only
- VSTi must let MIDI through (right clicking 2 out > MIDI out disable)
- Record: output (MIDI), Monitor: input

(just recaping for anyone looking for same solution)

http://screencast.com/t/NDlkZTQyYm

Example of loop recording with offseting the midi for one sec ahead,
while recording audio simultaniously to check offset.
Finally got this working with VSTi's as well, by following the exact steps of this post. I guess I must have missed disabling that "replaces midi input" option.

But the main problem for me is that I use Reason rewired into Reaper, and I was testing with that mostly. This does not have that "replaces midi input" option as it is not an VSTi, so I cant seem to do this :-/

edit: oh, forgot to say that the effect I get is that when playing, there is the same delay before I hear the note after playing it, while with the above mentioned option disabled its correct

Last edited by Chris Ihao; 11-29-2009 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:00 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Thanks for the replies guys. Please consider the below:

@EricM-You're looping, but your not looping + overdubing. That's what I'm looking for.

@Whatsup-

You missed the one scenario I need. I don't want a new item created every time, and I do not want to record takes. I want to loop + overdub.
Ah you were talking about overdub record mode. Yes there might be a problem
for one track recording.

These settings are really messy in my opinion, they ought to be independent:

- monitor input: on (modes) / off
- record: in / out / off
- record (type): audio (settings) / midi (settings)
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:01 PM   #109
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arm 2 tracks
1. record input
2. record output.

3. route track 1 to track 2
or
use the same source device for both.
Doesn't work. Here's why:

If you do that, you then lose the benefits of "Record Output MIDI". The whole point is to use "Record Output MIDI" to avoid the latency compensation by REAPER.

Because we're routing track 1 to track 2, track 2 is recording track 1's MIDI.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:04 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
Ah you were talking about overdub record mode. Yes there might be a problem
for one track recording.
Yes!

<whining>
All I want to do is record some freakin' MIDI loops, whereby the notes are recorded accurately (including the first note).

Is that really far out?
</whining>

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Old 11-29-2009, 04:06 PM   #111
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ok might be that I don't understand something,
I don't know the word overdub
and I don't understand exactly what's the case here,
but what I know, I could do several kinds of recording
with one and 2 tracks.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Doesn't work. Here's why:

If you do that, you then lose the benefits of "Record Output MIDI". The whole point is to use "Record Output MIDI" to avoid the latency compensation by REAPER.

Because we're routing track 1 to track 2, track 2 is recording track 1's MIDI.
when you route track1 to track2, you can do the routing in some ways.

before the FX, after it, and more.

by that, you can get different timing results.

you can record both of them in sync.
you can record them with no sync. thus one recorded after the other.

now just choose the mode you need.

if this can't help you, sorry, I just don't understand what you need.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
ok might be that I don't understand something,
I don't know the word overdub
and I don't understand exactly what's the case here,
but what I know, I could do several kinds of recording
with one and 2 tracks.
In general overdubbing is laying another track over another, here we are
referring to record: overdub (record notes in the same midi item) mode,
which is only for input.

jbone1313: have you tried recording in overdub mode and having
the "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items" checked?
(quick look through posts here I didn't catch any mentioning of this)
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:19 PM   #114
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ok, I saw what is overdubing,
on each loop the previous notes are kept,
and new notes are added.

now where is the problem ?
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:21 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
In general overdubbing is laying another track over another, here we are
referring to record: overdub (record notes in the same midi item) mode,
which is only for input.

jbone1313: have you tried recording in overdub mode and having
the "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items" checked?
(quick look through posts here I didn't catch any mentioning of this)
Yes; I've tried everything.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:25 PM   #116
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now where is the problem ?
I've tried your other suggestion. It doesn't really work, and if it does, its quite fiddly. (No offense, I really appreciate you guys help and patience.)

Are you able to do overdubbed MIDI recording in REAPER at low latencies (~256) whereby the notes (including the first notes) are captured/recorded accurately and consistently?

If so, how?

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Old 11-29-2009, 04:26 PM   #117
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Ahh. Freaky. I got it working with Rewire as well. Only difference is I have to set it to "pre-fx" under the "sends" options, and that I dont have to disable the "replace midi" option. There IS an option to do this under "show midi track control", but it isnt necessary when using Rewire I think.

This is great whatsup. Its a bit clunky, but now I can use midi quantize on tracks where thats ok, while using your delay app on tracks that fit best with totally non-quantized notes.

(clap clap clap)

Also thanks to you EricM for testing and clarifying stuff.

PS: Do NOT be suprised if I come back and say, "it didnt work as well as I thought". hehe. Anyways. I think this is the best we got for now.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:26 PM   #118
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http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32951
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:28 PM   #119
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Quote:
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PS: Do NOT be suprised if I come back and say, "it didnt work as well as I thought". hehe. Anyways. I think this is the best we got for now.
don't bother yourself man, I got used to it.
but,
we can work it out
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:30 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
The OP in that thread nails it:

Quote:
Input Quantize notwithstanding, I get the 'early' problem with recorded MIDI notes too, this time of course, the latency correlates with my soundcard's audio buffers. Now then, what's the best workaround for this? I find that using the record mode of Record: output (MIDI) does solve the problem - the notes appear on the grid exactly where I expect them. However I lose some functionality in not being able to use the MIDI overdub/replace modes. A simple offset value somewhere, as with the audio offset in 1), would be a neater solution. I'm aware that you can manually delay any midi parts recorded, but this feels clumsy, if I'm then adding more MIDI parts and then become unsure which parts I've already delayed and which I haven't. What are the best suggestions for this?
I will add that this 'early' problem (glad we have a name for it), is also what screws up the MIDI-Loop-Overdub recording--even with input quantize enabled.
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