Old 09-20-2019, 08:09 AM   #1
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Default v5.983+dev0920a - September 20 2019

v5.983+dev0920a - September 20 2019
# Track playback offset: fix UI glitch in I/O dialog

v5.983+dev0920 - September 20 2019
+ API: Windows WM_COPYDATA supports filenames with # character and prefix [t=225196]
# MIDI editor: fix CC envelope drawing of partial curves
# MIDI editor: fix restoring CC envelope interpolation ppq after loading project or undo
# MIDI: preserve CC curve shapes if possible when gluing
# Track playback offset: allow typing in values up to 1000 ms
# Track playback offset: send MIDI note-offs when changing offset time
# Track playback offset: support UI in ms or samples
# Track playback offset: support bypassing offset

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases


Quote:
+ API: Windows WM_COPYDATA supports filenames with # character and prefix
Thanks!

Awesome, it sets project as modified now too! Thank You!

Last edited by Edgemeal; 09-20-2019 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:23 AM   #2
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# Track playback offset:

Thanks devs.

It seems to be a bit broken though (when it wasn't in the previous 918 build) as the text is black on a black background now so can't see anything

This is with the White Tie reaper 6 theme though so maybe that needs updating for this to be visible (or I can change a text colour somewhere if you know which one it is?)

EDIT: actually.. I can't seem to edit the number at all so it might actually just be broken
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:38 AM   #3
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Drawing issue here, Looks like the checkbox is covering the dial control & radio buttons ..

FIXED in +dev0920a



Win10 x64

Last edited by Edgemeal; 09-20-2019 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Fixed in +dev0920a
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:10 AM   #4
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Regarding the missing of negatively delayed notes upon the start of playback... hopefully this will help. This is the way Cubase/Nuendo behaves... although not sure how they implement it.

Ok... so, although I do a lot of programming in KSP for Native Instruments, I'm not sure how DAWs calculate Note_On commands during playback... but please indulge me for this explanation/discussion.



So we have a few variables:
Play_Cursor_START_Pos: the position of where the playback cursor STARTS in the timeline
Note_Pos: where the MIDI note is located on the timeline
MIDI_Delay: the positive of negative value in ms to be applied as an offset to the Note_Pos
Note_On: where the MIDI note is triggered on the timeline based on the above criteria.

So, in this example let's use a MIDI delay of -300ms (negative 300ms).

Simple boolean example of the logic... not real code!!:

Code:
Note_On = Note_Pos + MIDI_Delay -- in this case it's negative 300ms
if Note_On < Play_Cursor_START_Pos then
              Note_On = Play_Cur_START_Pos
end
So, this isn't a prefect solution, but it stops the MIDI from being omitted during playback when the Play_Start falls on the downbeat of a MIDI note. And I think this is the way Cubase/Nuendo behaves. It also avoids having to rewind 300ms (an odd meter depending on tempo) thereby avoiding triggering other tracks that have no negative delay upon playback.

During MIDI recording and playback, this is a compromise MIDI people have been living with for years (decades?). For final mixdown, MIDI guys know to start a measure before MIDI.

Is this helpful at all?
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Last edited by Thonex; 09-20-2019 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:16 AM   #5
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In terms of midi chasing, I think we should discuss available options instead of just leaving this on Justin and Schwa to figure out.

Here's the couple options that have been brought up so far.

1) A silent pre-roll so that all events at the playhead are played regardless of the delay. The pros of this are it would work for both audio and midi and that there would be no timing issues. Cons of this are it would seem to the user as if there is a slight delay before playing starts, similar to a high PDC setting. The higher the longest negative delay amount, the higher the delay before playback starts. It would also need to consider the playhead the actual play start so that automation or retrospective midi data would not be written before the playhead. It also might be best if the playhead didn't visually move during the pre-roll so as to not cause confusion.

2) Always play midi events at the playhead without negative delay - aka don't engage negative delay until the size of the negative delay has elapsed. So if the track delay was -100ms, no delay would occur until 100ms had passed. Pros of this are midi events at the playhead would always be caught and that there would be no delay between pressing play and when playback actually starts. Cons of this are that depending on the size of the negative delay, timing of events would be affected. Also, this would not work for audio items, so audio items would most likely need to be exempted from starting exactly at the playhead and instead start at the delayed offset.

In terms of what most of us are using negative midi offset for, it's mostly for longer articulations. Long strings, choir, etc. that speak late. So, the timing issues caused by the 2nd option I don't think would necessarily be a large issue or showstopper. At least in my case, negative midi delay would rarely be used for short articulations. Especially as short articulations can sometimes be fixed by changing the sample start (although there are time this is not possible depending on how complex the sample programming is). So it's mostly long articulations that I'm worried about in which case timing between the first couple events (first one not offset, second one offset) is not going to be critical.

Obviously there are lot of DAWs that have already sorted this. Most of them as far as I can tell. Of the ones I've used, Cubase/Nuendo, Logic, Pro Tools, Digital Performer and Ableton Live. Not sure about Bitwig or Presonus Studio One. If anyone has ideas on how any of these DAWs are dealing with it, please chime in. Or if you have additional solutions other than the two listed above (or ways the above two could work better).

Another issue to consider is Reaper's current PDC implementation and how it affects those two options. Right now afaik, Reaper is rounding up the PDC of a single plugin to the amount of the sample buffer, so if you have a lot of plugins on a virtual instrument or a high sample buffer how does that affect the above, especially the delay before playback with option 1 which could become very problematic.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:39 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post

1) A silent pre-roll ....
Speaking of pre-roll....

Why is there no option to record MIDI on pre-roll? There is for an audio option for that in the record preferences... but not for MIDI. Is there a technical reason for that?
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:24 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
It seems to be a bit broken though (when it wasn't in the previous 918 build) as the text is black on a black background now so can't see anything
Confirmed. This wasn't happening in the previous build.




dev0920a?
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:25 AM   #8
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Hi,
I've noticed some issues in midi editor:
- muted notes are not shown as they should be (not colorized) whatever the theme used
- when you want to transpose selected notes, it transposes the whole item.
I've compared with v5.983 which is ok, dev0918 and dev0920 nok (i didn't try other dev)
Am I the only one?
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:26 AM   #9
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^^^ Can't confirm any of those happening.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
Drawing issue here, Looks like the checkbox is covering the dial control & radio buttons ..



Win10 x64
I believe we will need to enlarge the Routing window, especially for people like me who work translating.

Thanks!!
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
^^^ Can't confirm any of those happening.
After reinstall, transpose is ok but muted notes colour still remains as non muted, strange because it's ok with v5.983

I've tried on another PC, same issue

I verify, the issue appears since the first dev build (v5.983+dev0829 - August 29 2019) after v5.983 release

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Old 09-20-2019, 11:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.983+dev0920 - September 20 2019

# Track playback offset: support UI in ms or samples
Thank thank thank you devs!!!! This is truly brilliant!
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Old 09-20-2019, 11:56 AM   #13
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So after giving some more thought on midi chase with negative track offset, I'm proposing the idea Schwa mentioned which is a silent pre-roll. The two options discussed again were 1) adding a silent pre-roll and 2) don't offset delayed events at the play cursor.

My proposal would be the following:

1) Have Reaper do a silent pre-roll that equals the amount of the largest negative track delay in the project.

2) The playhead should NOT move during this pre-roll. To the end user it should just seem like a slight delay before playback engages. The transport would then start moving exactly on the playhead location as it normally does.

3) The pre-roll area should only play tracks that have a negative offset. Any track that does not have a negative offset should not play until the playhead. This way loops that are triggered at the downbeat that need no offset will play in time as they will be triggering exactly at the downbeat, not before.

4) In the case of recording, automation and/or retrospective record, no data should be written before the playhead. Nothing should be written in the silent pre-roll area. So as far as scripts and the like are concerned, playback started from the play head location, not from the pre-roll location.

5) The pre-roll should preempt any user set pre-roll for playback and recording. in other words, the silent pre-roll happens before any user set pre-roll.

6) The pre-roll setting should be an option or preference that can be toggled on/off. So if a user does set a track to -1000ms delay and doesn't want the lag before playback, they can simply turn it off in which case midi events at the playhead might not be triggered depending on note length.

I think this is better for a couple reasons. First, it's an easy offset to calculate. Just look for the largest negative offset in the project and set the silent pre-roll to that amount. With option 2 it would have to scan all events at the play head and look for negative delay on the associated track before playing back. Second, with option 2 if you have loops or audio that need to have a negative offset to play in time, they won't play in time until the next event. Which in the case of a loop, there may not be another event. It might just be a long loop that will play out of time. So using option 2 with loops or audio vs regular midi events would be problematic.

At the end of the day, I'm fine with either option. So if there is one that is easier than another to implement, I think that's a lot better than not implementing anything at all. I think though that option 1 solves a few more use cases and if implemented with the above caveats would be pretty invisible to the user. I'm also not so concerned with a slight delay before playback start as most negative offsets I use aren't more than 100ms. I think the largest I've ever used might be 300ms. So we aren't talking about a very long delay and if there is a pref or option to turn it off, I don't think it would cause any issues for anyone.

Thoughts? Votes? Better ideas?
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:21 PM   #14
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v5.983+dev0920a - September 20 2019
# Track playback offset: fix UI glitch in I/O dialog


That didn't fix it for me sorry. Still the same things as shown in the image from EvilDragon
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:25 PM   #15
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Default Toggle Track offset Action

I see a check box in the I/O windows for turning the track offset on or off. That's brilliant.

Is there a way to toggle on/off that check box with an action?

There has to be someone clever out there that could make a cycle action or something if there isn't a built in action.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
v5.983+dev0920a - September 20 2019
# Track playback offset: fix UI glitch in I/O dialog


That didn't fix it for me sorry. Still the same things as shown in the image from EvilDragon
The glitch itself is fixed, but the font color for text is wrong. It doesn't listen to theme colors, text is always black, whereas the initial implementation was just fine. Please fix!
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
Is there a way to toggle on/off that check box with an action?
Since the offset is per track we'd need a toggle action for every track.
Not a huge fan of these ..track 1/..track 99 actions to be honest as I find them rather cluttering the action list.
Maybe have it accessable as API function? Then 'one-liner' scripts could be done as necessary.

edit:
Toggle for selected track(s) would probably be good in any case (sorry if you meant that anyway).

Last edited by nofish; 09-20-2019 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Since the offset is per track we'd need a toggle action for every track.
Not a huge fan of these ..track 1/..track 99 actions to be honest as I find them rather cluttering the action list.
Maybe have it accessable as API function? Then 'one-liner' scripts could be done as necessary.

edit:
Toggle for selected track(s) would probably be good in any case.
Agreed. API should give access to three action. Toggle, disable and enable selected tracks offset.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:00 PM   #19
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Default Importing MIDI Crashes Reaper

Faulting application name: reaper.exe, version: 72.23.5.77, time stamp: 0x5d851123
Faulting module name: reaper_midi.dll, version: 1.0.0.1, time stamp: 0x5d850ef4
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x0000000000111e1b
Faulting process id: 0x4d5c
Faulting application start time: 0x01d56feca64a4bdb
Faulting application path: C:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)\reaper.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)\Plugins\reaper_midi.dll
Report Id: a533b31c-d98c-439e-b23b-cd838926ef38
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:


This did not occur in reaper5983+dev0909_x64-install. Attached is a test midi file that I was trying to import.

Is there anyone else that can reproduce this issue?
Attached Files
File Type: mid TEST MIDI.mid (41.5 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by srdmusic; 09-21-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
So after giving some more thought on midi chase with negative track offset,...

<snip>

My proposal would be the following:

1) Have Reaper do a silent pre-roll that equals the amount of the largest negative track delay in the project...

<snip>

Thoughts? Votes? Better ideas?
I think Klangfarben has put a lot of thought into this. I think if this could be done... it would be a complete solution. There would be more booleans for pre-roll and count-off and record during count-off, but this would be great.

Otherwise I'd suggest perhaps the Cubase/Nuendo approach I mentioned earlier. At the very least, something has to be done to fix the missing negatively delayed MIDI notes on Play Start.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
I think Klangfarben has put a lot of thought into this. I think if this could be done... it would be a complete solution. There would be more booleans for pre-roll and count-off and record during count-off, but this would be great.

Otherwise I'd suggest perhaps the Cubase/Nuendo approach I mentioned earlier. At the very least, something has to be done to fix the missing MIDI notes on Play Start.
Yes, I should amend #5 above. In terms of pre-roll and count-off, booleans would be better. For example, IF count-off, THEN silent pre-roll during count-off. IF count-off AND user pre-roll, THEN silent pre-roll during user pre-roll (same booleans for play and record as well). This would also have the advantage of no delay on playback start for count-in and pre-roll.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:13 PM   #22
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The toggling track delay on / off brings me to another thought:
There's currently no way other than opening the IO panel to see if track delay is active or not.

edit:
To clarify, I think it would be better if visual feedback would be more obvious.
Most obvious implementation for me would have been making it an optional appearing knob in TCP/MCP (like FX parameters) instead of IO panel anyway.

Last edited by nofish; 09-20-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:18 PM   #23
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Default Routing window

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
Drawing issue here, Looks like the checkbox is covering the dial control & radio buttons ..

FIXED in +dev0920a



Win10 x64
Hi, Edgemeal

Moving the checkbox to the left, I think I'll have more
space to translate. Possible? See the pics

Thanks!
Attached Images
File Type: png Routing En.png (34.5 KB, 39 views)
File Type: png Routing Br.png (35.9 KB, 38 views)
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
The toggling track delay on / off brings me to another thought:
There's currently no way other than opening the IO panel to see if track delay is active or not.
Ya, if not a track indicator then maybe just add the delay setting to the Routing tooltip?
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
The toggling track delay on / off brings me to another thought:
There's currently no way other than opening the IO panel to see if track delay is active or not.

edit:
To clarify, I think it would be better if visual feedback would be more obvious.
Most obvious implementation for me would have been making it an optional appearing knob in TCP/MCP (like FX parameters) instead of IO panel anyway.
Track manager, as well!

In fact, having this in Track manager is probably a lot simpler to add, than to add a new theme element, accompanying WALTER etc... All themes would need updating...
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.983+dev0920a - September 20 2019
# Track playback offset: allow typing in values up to 1000 ms
actually allows to type any value and really delays the track that value, the knob up to +-500
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edison View Post
Hi, Edgemeal

Moving the checkbox to the left, I think I'll have more
space to translate. Possible? See the pics

Thanks!
Yes - perhaps another possibility would be a shorter
descriptor:

Plaback time offset --> Track delay --> Delay

It all expresses the same.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Track manager, as well!

In fact, having this in Track manager is probably a lot simpler to add, than to add a new theme element, accompanying WALTER etc... All themes would need updating...
Well, before this build it was just a knob with readout, and we already can embed knobs in TCP/MCP, but with the addition of tickbox/radio buttons now, fair enough, could be more complicated to embed in TCP/MCP.

edit:
Though toggling,ms/samples could be switched with rightclick instead maybe.
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:03 PM   #29
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Yes, Track delay would be a good shorter name for this parameter. Easier to translate in most languages, too. Takes less space, too.
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:22 PM   #30
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Can anyone briefly explain the track offset feature? What's it for and how's it different from the offsets in recording prefs?
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:39 PM   #31
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Can anyone briefly explain the track offset feature? What's it for and how's it different from the offsets in recording prefs?
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=224593

The first post along with it's video should explain it to you. It's fantastic that Reaper added this. Only remaining fix is the missing MIDI notes on when negatively delaying MIDI is located at the Play Start.
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:54 PM   #32
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How to place radio button(playback offset) in TCP?No way? I think it needs to do.It will very useful and economically for orchestral templates with > 1000 tracks.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:03 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Track manager, as well!

In fact, having this in Track manager is probably a lot simpler to add, than to add a new theme element, accompanying WALTER etc... All themes would need updating...
I'd love a simple readout somewhere that's always visible (eg. TCP and MCP), even if that means custom theme makers will have to do some extra work if they want that element in their theme. Track Manager could be a decent compromise.

I guess that's a tiny drawback with custom theming, they always have to consider that aspect and can't just add any improvements they want. Or maybe it's just me thinking that way.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:32 PM   #34
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+ Tracks: support positive or negative playback time offset without affecting PDC

Ty Devs, I imagine it is so difficult to make everyone happy ... I guess some people would find this useless but this is really important for those of us who make orchestral themes. So I can't forget my sadness about articulation maps ... let's be possitive, this is simple huge for us.

Thanks a lot (and specially for the notation effort too in the last years).
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:56 PM   #35
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We appreciate the thought you guys are putting into the MIDI offset issue. This is a brand new feature so anything can change, but on our side, it's just not clear yet how the advantages and disadvantages of the various proposals balance out. The Cubase method seems really not ideal, to guarantee that all notes play at the cost of having the timing of the initial notes be unpredictable. The suggestion of doing a sort of pre-roll on negatively delayed tracks while outputting silence on non-delayed tracks -- which is effectively PDC -- could work but would probably have to be optional. In any case, we're thinking about all of this and will let it sit for a while.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:32 PM   #36
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We appreciate the thought you guys are putting into the MIDI offset issue. This is a brand new feature so anything can change, but on our side, it's just not clear yet how the advantages and disadvantages of the various proposals balance out. The Cubase method seems really not ideal, to guarantee that all notes play at the cost of having the timing of the initial notes be unpredictable. The suggestion of doing a sort of pre-roll on negatively delayed tracks while outputting silence on non-delayed tracks -- which is effectively PDC -- could work but would probably have to be optional. In any case, we're thinking about all of this and will let it sit for a while.
First and foremost thank you for the feature and thank you for considering all the issues as well as user input. You guys rock.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:10 PM   #37
Thonex
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We appreciate the thought you guys are putting into the MIDI offset issue...
Thanks schwa!! Thanks for the features and also for the communication! Really awesome!


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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The Cubase method seems really not ideal, to guarantee that all notes play at the cost of having the timing of the initial notes be unpredictable.
Yeah... I'm guessing it's their compromise vs no MIDI playback on the first notes. Also, seems like an easy compromise to implement.

Thanks for all your considerations and have a great weekend!!!
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:25 PM   #38
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Does anyone know how Studio One handles "track playback offset"? Studio One is more modern than Cubase/Nuendo.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:22 PM   #39
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Only remaining fix ...
Can of worms...

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Old 09-20-2019, 11:09 PM   #40
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Yes, thanks a lot @devs for this great communication and including that feature. You are awesome!!!
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