Old 09-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #41
Soli Deo Gloria
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Well, first of all A BIG, BIG THANK YOU for the negative offset feature, devs!!!!! Itīs, for sure, one of those key features, and a long awaited one - even I created one of the threads about it some years ago : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=199172 -.


All of the suggestions and remarks posted above are relevant, in my opinion.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:10 PM   #42
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I'm also curious. Maybe for orchestral instruments with keyswitches, where you'd need a different delay for different articulations? But then again this seems like it would be very cumbersome, and should be part of a articulation management system instead (I know Tack had a prototype for this for his Reaticulate script at one point, where you could set a different delay for each articulation).
Since the notes would be pre delayed you would also want your keyswitch notes to be pre-delayed exactly the same so that they line up with the note start.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:17 PM   #43
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Devs, Iīve just realized that during this pre cycle, some SWS tempo envelope actions have been broken again - and I say "again", since this has already happened during the v5.65 pre cycle, almost two years ago -.

Take a look :




This happens since reaper5983+dev0829. With v5.83, it works as usual.

There Iīm using "SWS/BR: Freehand draw envelope while snapping points to left side grid line (perform until shortcut released)". Also, the action called "SWS/BR: Set closest envelope point's value to mouse cursor (perform until shortcut released)" is also broken, and maybe there are more SWS actions broken. These two, at least, are vital for my workflow.


Please, I hope you can fix this for the next pre-release since I depend heavily on these actions for most of my work.



Thank you very much in advance
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:44 PM   #44
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v5.983+dev0918 - September 18 2019
+ Tracks: support positive or negative playback time offset without affecting PDC
Thank you!
I also support the idea of API integration and automation options.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:25 AM   #45
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Absolutely setting track delay in samples is required. Some plugins like Kontakt and Reaktor don't report PDC to hosts yet they can introduce some latency. There should be a way to compensate for this manually, and since we don't have millisecond precision with decimals...


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Old 09-19-2019, 04:45 AM   #46
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Absolutely setting track delay in samples is required. Some plugins like Kontakt and Reaktor don't report PDC to hosts yet they can introduce some latency. There should be a way to compensate for this manually, and since we don't have millisecond precision with decimals...


May be we need something like "fine tune" in samples. For example , if i need shift track -200ms and -54 samples, then in samples it will be -9654 samples (in 48khz) , my opinion - it is uncomfortably. Much better have 2 knobs, one - miliseconds and second one in samples. Then I will easy set -200ms (on the one knob) and -54 (on the second one).
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:21 AM   #47
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I think just having either/or is fine. If we had decimal adjustment in milliseconds, using ms+samples is unnecessary.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:40 AM   #48
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You can enter "100.5" or whatever in the ms box and it should be applied and saved properly, even if it only displays whole ms.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:48 AM   #49
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That's good, sorta. But it would be better if it displayed properly what we typed in, yes? Going back to the project after a while you won't be able to discern what was typed in exactly..

Even so, being able to enter this offset in samples is still very much a very good thing to have (as mentioned, Kontakt and Reaktor don't report PDC, so entering a manual offset in samples would be better because then you don't have to change the offset if you change project sample rates on the fly).

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Old 09-19-2019, 06:29 AM   #50
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I vote for both samples and ms input.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:48 AM   #51
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The +/- delay plugin also shows meters (sound source distance).

-Michael

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Old 09-19-2019, 07:52 AM   #52
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and feet please and other weird units.
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:10 AM   #53
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looking back to the ccs, i am having trouble getting my curves to survive being glued:



expected behavior would be to reopen the newly glued item and see the exact same number of points as there were before gluing.
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:30 AM   #54
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Can the +/- delay be changed dynamically, so I could compensate for possible latency issues that way automatically?
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:33 AM   #55
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and feet please and other weird units.
At what altitude? Sea level? Denver, Colorado?
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:48 AM   #56
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Can the +/- delay be changed dynamically, so I could compensate for possible latency issues that way automatically?
Changing the playback delay can be resource-intensive, so we're not going to support changing this dynamically for now.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:55 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That's good, sorta. But it would be better if it displayed properly what we typed in, yes? Going back to the project after a while you won't be able to discern what was typed in exactly..

Even so, being able to enter this offset in samples is still very much a very good thing to have (as mentioned, Kontakt and Reaktor don't report PDC, so entering a manual offset in samples would be better because then you don't have to change the offset if you change project sample rates on the fly).
Agreed. decimal display would be great.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Changing the playback delay can be resource-intensive, so we're not going to support changing this dynamically for now.
I hope it is not a problem for having a method to read/set it from API. It could be ignored when playing. And just work when stopped when used from API.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:50 AM   #59
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@ schwa @ Justin

When Negative MIDI delay is ON, and you start playback at the downbeat of a measure where there is MIDI, then the first MIDI is never played. Either the MIDI should be chased, or a graceful fix is to do what I believe (based on heda's observations in another thread) Cubase does... and that is to only start delaying MIDI after the Negative Delay window has elapsed... thereby not missing any MIDI playback. Imagine not hearing back the first notes of your entire arrangement for all the rack that have negative delay. It's a workflow-buster to always have to rewind a measure (or at a minimum the delay amount) to hear your initial MIDI.

Here is a 30 sec video describing what I mean...

Video demonstration of Missed MIDI

Let me know if this is not clear... I'll try to explain better.

Is this possible?
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:26 PM   #60
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I believe note-ons will be chased in the case where the adjusted playback starts in the middle of a note, but if the adjusted playback begins after the end of a note, that note will be skipped. The behavior should be exactly the same as if playback was started at the adjusted position, which in the case of your video is *after* the visible group of notes. If the adjusted position were *within* that group of notes (in your example, if the negative delay is less than (just eyeballing) 1/8 note), the note-ons would be chased.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:27 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
@ schwa @ Justin

Here is a 30 sec video describing what I mean...

Video demonstration of Missed MIDI

Let me know if this is not clear... I'll try to explain better.

Is this possible?
This is the PPQ grid concept in Reaper ... Hundreds of written requests and complaints.
As soon as the tempo is not equal to 120 bpm, micro-displacements that affect the sound begin
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:30 PM   #62
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I don't think this issue has anything to do with rounding errors, I think it's conceptual.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:39 PM   #63
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Ah, it's all about something else, I'm sorry. Well, how could it be otherwise?
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:39 PM   #64
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I believe note-ons will be chased in the case where the adjusted playback starts in the middle of a note, but if the adjusted playback begins after the end of a note, that note will be skipped. The behavior should be exactly the same as if playback was started at the adjusted position, which in the case of your video is *after* the visible group of notes. If the adjusted position were *within* that group of notes (in your example, if the negative delay is less than (just eyeballing) 1/8 note), the note-ons would be chased.
I think the issue here is that leaving midi chase as-is is going to miss a lot of notes. For virtual instruments that need a lot of negative delay, for staccato articulations with a small amount of negative delay, etc. It's going to basically be a crap shoot and will also make users adjust the delay setting based on how long note lengths are in order to chase. IMHO, this isn't the best solution.

I agree that either the midi chase on playback start should be adjusted to compensate for the negative delay or that the negative delay should start delaying after the set delay amount has passed. The first solution would probably be easier as the second solution would be problematic with audio.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:45 PM   #65
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This, of course, is inconvenient on the one hand, and logical on the other. Offset occurs without a visual representation (like js plugins)
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:50 PM   #66
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I don't think there's any adjustment to how chasing happens that would address this. The only way to address it is for playback to start in a different place, invisibly.

Just to put some made-up numbers on the video example, and using beats rather than seconds since it's easier to follow, say the play head is at 3.1.00 and the playback offset is -0.1.00. In the video, it looks like Cubase is actually starting playback at 2.4.00, but not visually moving the playhead until the 0.1.00 of offset elapses. What happens to media on other tracks? Do they play back during the initial 0.1.00, before the play head starts moving?
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:01 PM   #67
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I don't think there's any adjustment to how chasing happens that would address this. The only way to address it is for playback to start in a different place, invisibly.

Just to put some made-up numbers on the video example, and using beats rather than seconds since it's easier to follow, say the play head is at 3.1.00 and the playback offset is -0.1.00. In the video, it looks like Cubase is actually starting playback at 2.4.00, but not visually moving the playhead until the 0.1.00 of offset elapses. What happens to media on other tracks? Do they play back during the initial 0.1.00, before the play head starts moving?
I'm away from my system at the moment, but I'm almost sure that anything you see with the cursor is because of screen capturing. Nuendo (I'm 95% sure about this now) will playback from the left cursor but it won't delay MIDI that is "within" the delay window... you can tell this because the subsequent MIDI will be moved earlier and that makes the first note sound much closer to the second note. That's the compromise Steinberg uses as far as I know. But at least it plays the MIDI.

I'll come back to this later when I'm at my studio.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:22 PM   #68
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Can the +/- delay be changed dynamically, so I could compensate for possible latency issues that way automatically?
I don't understand what you exactly mean.

As PDC is only accepted by Reaper when starting, automatiing negative delay values does not make sense.

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Old 09-19-2019, 01:23 PM   #69
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At what altitude? Sea level? Denver, Colorado?
At least with +/- delay you can set the temperature

-Michael
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:15 PM   #70
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@ schwa @ Justin

Ok, so I think the Cubase cursor is just laggy in general. From this next video, you'll be able to see that Cubase/Nuendo is not invisibly rewinding the Negative Delay amount... otherwise the timings of the clicks would be consistent no matter where I started at or before the first MIDI event.

Here is a new video demonstrating who it works in Nuendo with a Urie click:

New Video of Nuendo/Cubase Negative MIDI Timing

Now... no one is saying "do it like Nuendo/Cubase". I think the point is to not lose the playback of MIDI events located at the Play Start cursor. If you guys can find a better solution that won't mess with record punch-ins and whatnot... then by all means.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:55 PM   #71
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In any such situation, you need to add the ability to configure Then everyone will be happy
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:32 PM   #72
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This is an interesting problem. If I'm understanding correctly....
I reckon the answer is to add an option for an invisible pre roll that's the same as the longest playback-offset track. If the other tracks don't play during this pre-roll the system could feel annoyingly laggy for long offsets.
But if the offset isn't long it makes more sense to only play the offset tracks during the pre-roll. I guess there could be threshold options for the offsets where pre-roll plays back just offset tracks and as it gets longer all tracks are played and then maybe for ridiculously long offsets no pre-roll is added at all to prevent the play cursor start position becoming too arbitrary !
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:38 PM   #73
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Cubase is pretty clearly not doing a pre-roll. If I had to guess Iíd say it was playing at an arbitrary fast play rate until the play head catches up with the offset. The advantage is that everything gets played, the disadvantage is that the play rate is arbitrary - the first two clicks have essentially random timing.
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:13 PM   #74
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Quote:
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- the first two clicks have essentially random timing.
FWIW in the context of playing together with other non negative delayed tracks I think I'd find that rather disturbing than helpful (but I can't test in real world as I don't have Cubase.)
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:03 PM   #75
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Cubase is pretty clearly not doing a pre-roll. If I had to guess Iíd say it was playing at an arbitrary fast play rate until the play head catches up with the offset. The advantage is that everything gets played, the disadvantage is that the play rate is arbitrary - the first two clicks have essentially random timing.
I donít think itís an arbitrary play rate. I think itís an offset calculation based on the distance of the MIDI from the play head. Iíll try to think of a maths example. At a dinner thing now.

For most orchestral situations where the offset is usually less than 150 ms, itís a pretty transparent solution. Mostly this is to alleviate missing MIDI playback when tracking MIDI parts. Upon mixsown, just go back a bar.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:27 PM   #76
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Quote:
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This is an interesting problem. If I'm understanding correctly....
This has been discussed at some length in the "Feature Request" and "Bug" threads that supposedly triggered this new feature: Just doing a positive/negative Audio/Midi delay is one thing that can (rather easily) be handled by a plugin or can (gracefully) be provided by the Reaper GUI. Coping with the consequences on a Midi composer's workflow is a completely different issue.

-Michael
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:54 AM   #77
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Devs please, add option to switch between miliseconds, samples and frames.

Thank you!
+1 on this!!
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:40 AM   #78
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I donít think itís an arbitrary play rate. I think itís an offset calculation based on the distance of the MIDI from the play head.
Another question would be if the first two clicks get farther apart if the track has a positive playback delay.

That approach seems to have a clear upside (all notes get played) and downside (arbitrary, or at least unpredictable-to-the-user, timing).
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:03 AM   #79
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I don't particularly like that the MIDI notes are played even of there wasn't time for the delay. It makes these notes out of sync. The only way to listen to it properly is to rewind a bit (more than the maximum delay of all tracks) and play. Would there be a way to know what is the maximum/minimum track delay in project?

would it be possible to adjust offset automatically the display of the waveforms according to the delay? If would make it easier to adjust the delay visually too (for audio only, not midi) maybe it complicates things at the item edges. Maybe a bad idea.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:05 AM   #80
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This then calls for an option. For composer workflow what Thonex is talking about is extremely important.
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